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Old 21st January 2014, 11:13   #61
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by Ph03nix View Post
...My point was if other manufacturers are already getting more power from a NA engine, why add the extra cost of a turbo and it's water cooled plumbing. I am not sure though how this compares to doing a VVT on both the intake and exhaust, though. Then as you pointed out there is the reliability aspect as well...
I think TATA will eventually make more tunes out of this. As I said, they probably want to start somewhere and play safe too. My expectation is they also will have a 100 bhp version for the sedan which probably is doing testing in the CS Manza.

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Originally Posted by Ph03nix View Post
... The only thing missing from the bulletin is F.E. If tata is able to give a 20+ KMPL with this block, then it makes tremendous amount of sense.
I doubt a 20 kmpl is going to be achievable from this. I would rather look at a realistic 17 kmpl and anything more will be a bonus.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:20   #62
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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I doubt a 20 kmpl is going to be achievable from this. I would rather look at a realistic 17 kmpl and anything more will be a bonus.
That's the thing. Tata has to do at par or better than what's already available in the market to survive, let alone thrive. IMO if Tata's new tech is already behind in power && fuel efficiency than the competitors there is only so much hope.

Playing the cheap card will only work for a while until the giants localize enough to match Tata's numbers.

Also we aren't exactly Americans where nationalist sentiments will make us buy chevy's & ford's even though there are better cars around.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:28   #63
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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How much more would you want for a Vista anyway!

I for one, will be more than happy if this unit proves an extremely reliable for atleast 1.5L kms.

And I believe TATA wants to test the waters with the Vista before introducing in the newer generation vehicles.

I say it's a smart move. Vista anyway doesn't have a great reputation and even if this engine proves to be bad, they would NOT lose anything.
Dear,
The N/A Alto K10 has a power to weight ratio of 85+Bhp. [Reference: K10 review thread]. An Indica platform weighs more than a Ton. So the power to weight ratio will be around 75 BHP. In economy mode, what will it make? 65 BHP?
Owners of new Turbo charged Indica will be ready to be overtaken by an Alto?

Life of Japanese petrol engines is around 3 Lakh km's. So targeting 1.5 Lakh Km's is wrong. If the manufacturer targets 3 Lakh km's, the car will definitely run 2 Lakh under most circumstances [with some exceptions]. If the manufacturer targets 1.5 Lakh, then its a perfect recipe of disaster. The engines start failing @80-90K kms.

I do not see anything new in this, so i prefer not to term it as a next gen vehicle. So i do not see it as a smart move.

What i see as a smart move will be.
- Get rid of that Indica platform. Stop making cars which look like Indica's brothers and sisters. How best your food may taste today, it will be stale by tomorrow. you cannot have the same food.
- If you are not good at making Engines. Don't do it. If you cant make the best & reliable engines, then Buy engines from the market. Merc engines / JLR engines. (like Force did with Force one.) And there is nothing wrong with this kind of approach. Concentrate on QC, sales, service & spares.

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Originally Posted by rkg View Post
Vista petrol engine, Safire is from FIAT. Not TATA's
RKG, Thanks for pointing it out. What i meant was "The Indica's new engine is as good as hero's new engines." Same blocks, same power ratio's. Manufacturers just tweaked their old engines to show them as new and their own ones.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:38   #64
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by parrys View Post
...Dear Tata,

Why won't you shut shop and focus on getting JLR up against the big Trio? Because you're losing the game this side.

Movus, Falcon, earlier the Tata Merlin hype resulting in a Storme
Quite rough I'd say. Also, quite stupid to ask a market player known for being extremely innovative & VFM, to exit!

TATA shutting shop will give quite a free run to the market. Competitors would get wings and Prices would be among the first things to go up, even in this slowdown!

Theres a reason that a certain "Maruti Servicing has become expensive" thread exists - its the ONLY company that arbitrarily forced its customers to use Synthetic Engine Oil, albeit the sharp practice only worked for a short period. That should give a hint at how things can turn.

Atleast off-late TATA has offered reliable products at really competitive prices, setting a benchmark for VFM offerings. They seem to provide the smoothest warranty claim procedure in the market, apart from that the AMC offered is quite VFM in itself - keeping the Total Cost of Ownership rather competitive.

I really believe people should cut them some slack. I've come across people with BARE BASIC understanding of cars, bad-mouthing TATA for - if not anything, then the 'Looks'. Looks may be subjective, but I genuinely don't think they're SO VERY UGLY that people behave hatefully to the brand. And then theres often the mob-mentality where people just mindlessly pile on to one opinion.

Forget everything, if you saw what it means to invest 1,200 crores on a plant, then you wouldn't be saying such stuff. Lest said, they haven't laid off workers in the last 2 years. Their CSR practices are renowned worldwide.

Maruti has quite a shrewd labour employment practices, apart from being rumored to ill-treat its workers.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 21st January 2014 at 12:00.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:47   #65
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
....The N/A Alto K10 has a power to weight ratio of 85+Bhp. [Reference: K10 review thread]. An Indica platform weighs more than a Ton. So the power to weight ratio will be around 75 BHP. In economy mode, what will it make? 65 BHP?
Owners of new Turbo charged Indica will be ready to be overtaken by an Alto?
Hardly matters. Alto K10's power-to-weight ratio is much better than a lot of cars. Do you really think the target audience of Vista will bother about the sprinting capacity of the product?!

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
....Life of Japanese petrol engines is around 3 Lakh km's. So targeting 1.5 Lakh Km's is wrong...
I am NOT a manufacturer. For me, as a customer, a 1.5L kms on a petrol engine more than suffices. Frankly I am yet to come across a report or classified where a (petrol) car above 1.5L kms is listed.

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
....I do not see anything new in this, so i prefer not to term it as a next gen vehicle. So i do not see it as a smart move...
Sorry, don't get this properly. I said they may wanted to test it on Vista before trying it out of new gen models.

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
....What i see as a smart move will be.
- Get rid of that Indica platform. Stop making cars which look like Indica's brothers and sisters. How best your food may taste today, it will be stale by tomorrow. you cannot have the same food...
We all know that the process is already underway and the results will be out in another 2 years. So we can either choose to wait till it happens or keep on harping the same tune.

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
....- If you are not good at making Engines. Don't do it. If you cant make the best & reliable engines, then Buy engines from the market. Merc engines / JLR engines. (like Force did with Force one.) And there is nothing wrong with this kind of approach. Concentrate on QC, sales, service & spares...
Recent progress with couple of manufacturers point in a different direction. Suzuki & Honda were NOT known for diesel engine manufacturing - but both of them have either developed or are in the process of developing engines which were NOT their competencies some time back. Unless you try something new, you never will know whether you are capable of it.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 21st January 2014 at 12:03.
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Old 21st January 2014, 11:57   #66
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Do you really think the target audience of Vista will bother about the sprinting capacity of the product?!

I am NOT a manufacturer. For me, as a customer, a 1.5L kms on a petrol engine more than suffices. Frankly I am yet to come across a report or classified where a (petrol) car above 1.5L kms is listed.

Recent progress with couple of manufacturers point in a different direction. Suzuki & Honda were NOT known for diesel engine manufacturing - but both of them have either developed or are in the process of developing engines which were NOT their competencies some time back. Unless you try something new, you never will know whether you are capable of.
hmm.. Lots of differences between the way we both think.

Honda made a Diesel engine. Just by going through the spec sheet one can say that, its best on paper.
- Coolant life 1 Lakh
- Power ~100 Bhp.
- Torque ~170
- Life of engine oil.
Best in class specs.

And i see the same missing from Tata's spec sheet. Not even one spec sizzled me. If no specs can sizzle you, then the product cant amaze you. i might be wrong too.
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Old 21st January 2014, 13:02   #67
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Hardly matters. Alto K10's power-to-weight ratio is much better than a lot of cars. Do you really think the target audience of Vista will bother about the sprinting capacity of the product?!
+1. Not many will even know such a parameter like Power-to-weight ratio even exists. Main question the customer asks are:

1) How many seating capacity;

2) What is FE?!

3) What is the OTR?!

If these 3 questions satify a customer then he drives away with that car be it a Maruti, Honda, Ford or a Tata.

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I am NOT a manufacturer. For me, as a customer, a 1.5L kms on a petrol engine more than suffices. Frankly I am yet to come across a report or classified where a (petrol) car above 1.5L kms is listed.
Have you missed reading the ownership log of Mr. Parag Sachania?

The one and only report:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ing-miles.html

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
We all know that the process is already underway and the results will be out in another 2 years. So we can either choose to wait till it happens or keep on harping the same tune.
I agree that it is better to watch silently than keep speculating and criticizing Tata for whatever they are doing.

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Recent progress with couple of manufacturers point in a different direction. Suzuki & Honda were NOT known for diesel engine manufacturing - but both of them have either developed or are in the process of developing engines which were NOT their competencies some time back. Unless you try something new, you never will know whether you are capable of it.
Till one doesn't get their hands dirty in grease and oil, NO DIY is worthy.

So the same way till very manufacturer experiments in different sectors and categories, they will never realize their potential.

Anurag.
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Old 21st January 2014, 15:08   #68
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

The engine is just announced and the brickbats have already started.

The power, on paper, is 85 PS. What is more interesting is the spread of torue which looks more diesel-ish. This should translate into good driving experience in city.

Choice of cast iron block is puzzling; is there something we are missing?

One more thing is, why did Tata chose to make a petrol engine?

This is a company known for diesels and even the diesel at present have dismal sales. It is indeed a very bold step from Tata to concentrate on petrol engine in which category it has abysmal record.

Last edited by simplyself : 21st January 2014 at 15:15.
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Old 21st January 2014, 15:45   #69
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
Choice of cast iron block is puzzling; is there something we are missing?
Because the parent engine aka Xeta/Indica engine has a cast iron block and it costs lesser.

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Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
One more thing is, why did Tata chose to make a petrol engine?
For the same reason Suzuki chose to make a diesel engine!

According to ERC head Tim Leverton, the Revotron family will have 5 engines:

Quote:
Dr Tim Leverton, President and Head, Engineering Research Centre, mentioned how there were about five engines in totality that the Raevotron family will cover, from small capacity engines to larger capacity engines for various different purposes.
Check this:
http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...-engine/17711/
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Old 21st January 2014, 15:54   #70
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What would be the development time frame for a motor like this - given that they've modified the existing Xeta motor. Am just asking this because Tata motors would've started working on it that many months ago. I would say good thinking from the guys at helm. They saw the market moving away from diesels with the consistent 50p increase in diesel prices month on month and they've tried to plug the gap in their portfolio.
Interesting times ahead for Tata Motors.

Last edited by GTO : 21st January 2014 at 16:14. Reason: No SMS language on this forum please
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Old 21st January 2014, 16:00   #71
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Ok this is straight from the horses mouth.

The 1st in the series of Revotron engine was made with torque in mind. It has a linear torque curve across the rpm range mentioned. So considering that the focus was city driveability and hence, more efficiency, bhp was never in the picture. But yes, there will be future tunes that would have higher bhp figures, a big hint at the Falcon series.
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Old 21st January 2014, 16:06   #72
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
Because the parent engine aka Xeta/Indica engine has a cast iron block and it costs lesser.
For that matter, displacement of the Revotron and Xeta are identical. This means the block is the same.


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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
For the same reason Suzuki chose to make a diesel engine!

According to ERC head Tim Leverton, the Revotron family will have 5 engines
MSL is a petrol driven product portfolio company. And the hot selling Swift and Dzire use borrowed engines. MSL do not have a single diesel engine of its own even though Swift , Dzire and Ertiga do command excellent market share, along with Ritz and SX 4. So it makes sense for them to develop a diesel engine of their own.

Tata, which do have a worst record in petrol engines has introduced a petrol engine which looks quite good on paper with that good torque spread starting from 1750 rpm to 3500 rpm.

It is indeed a bold step by Tata to make a determined foray ( if the launch of Revotron is a sign in that direction) where they do have less than negligible ( if that is possible) presence. More over, how does the market receives the petrol engine with such a bad record in the segment.
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Old 21st January 2014, 16:20   #73
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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For that matter, displacement of the Revotron and Xeta are identical. This means the block is the same.
Yes, it's the same block. There's nothing radical about Revotron 1.2. It is merely an improved version of Xeta engine which in turn was an improved version of Indica petrol engine which, in turn, was derived from (and shared its block with) the original Indica diesel engine. In comparison, the Nano engine is far more path breaking!

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Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
MSL is a petrol driven product portfolio company. And the hot selling Swift and Dzire use borrowed engines. MSL do not have a single diesel engine of its own even though Swift , Dzire and Ertiga do command excellent market share, along with Ritz and SX 4. So it makes sense for them to develop a diesel engine of their own.

Tata, which do have a worst record in petrol engines has introduced a petrol engine which looks quite good on paper with that good torque spread starting from 1750 rpm to 3500 rpm.

It is indeed a bold step by Tata to make a determined foray ( if the launch of Revotron is a sign in that direction) where they do have less than negligible ( if that is possible) presence. More over, how does the market receives the petrol engine with such a bad record in the segment.
If you are weak in an area, you try to overcome that weakness. That's what Tata is doing and that's what Suzuki is doing!
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Old 21st January 2014, 16:27   #74
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

This motor might have it's advantages. But the REAL PROBLEM is that Tata's communications department seems to be working on a different planet from the engineering.

Why was NOTHING impressive about this engine highlighted in the press release? All we see as of date is lower power figures than their naturally-aspirated competition, SOHC & 8 valves.

If fuel-economy is indeed a virtue of this engine, it should have been stressed upon. I understand that ARAI will only test production-ready cars. But Tata could have tested it themselves and put forth realistic figures (e.g. 21 kpl in our internal tests or 20% better fuel economy than the competition). If there is no data shared, it's foolhardy to assume this motor will be brilliantly economical. Not that the kerb weight of Tata's cars helps the cause either.

Likewise for driveability. If that is a strong point, it should have been brought forward in a better manner in the press information.

All Tata shares are numbers & facts that pale in comparison to the competition. Obviously, no one will be left impressed.

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When the mileage figures for the diesel itself didnt help much, we have to wait and watch what the petrol can do.
Very good point. Tata's diesels are highly economical. But they couldn't sell when the market was diesel obsessed!

Wonder why Tata didn't simply underbore the Linea T-Jet engine to a 1.2L size. After all, Fiat is Tata's partner in India and they already share engines for other cars.

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Agreed if you shove this in a big car, it won't light any charts on fire, but put this in a little larger than a Alto size car and you have a rocket at hand.
AFAIK, there is no new car smaller than the Indica / Vista on the horizon.

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My point is - if the product quality is good in the first place, service center will have lesser problems to deal with.
So true. Honda has a couple of lousy dealers. Yet, the reliability of their cars is so good that you rarely hear owners complaining.
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Old 21st January 2014, 16:51   #75
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Wonder why Tata didn't simply underbore the Linea T-Jet engine to a 1.2L size. After all, Fiat is Tata's partner in India and they already share engines for other cars.
Probably the cost. Anything manufactured in-house should be cheaper than something bought from elsewhere.

BTW, i find the peak power comparisons fallacious. The Honda and Suzuki engines make their peak powers at 6000+ rpm where we almost never venture into. I would like to see the low end torque figures for comparison. There - at low rpms - the Tata's turbocharged engine would be producing more torque than the Honda/Suzuki engines.
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