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Old 22nd January 2014, 10:01   #91
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
? Lets first see where is this engine going to be used. Only power is meaningless without the associated gearbox and the drive train and the car. 85bhp in a light weight 800kg car is stonking performance compared to 120bhp in a 1.5 ton car.
.
So which is the light weight Tata car you are talking about the engine being plonked into?
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Old 22nd January 2014, 10:29   #92
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
So which is the light weight Tata car you are talking about the engine being plonked into?
Nano?

BTW, I wonder why people are surprised why Tata didn't develop a range topping, high revving, high FE petrol engine. Tata is still not in the league of VW or Honda or Ford. And I don't think Tata's target customers are screaming for state-of-the-art engines. For a start, this 85PS turbo-petrol from Tata is good enough for their cars. And being a turbo, it gives them the flexibility of modifying it to fit into an array of cars. All they have to do is play with different TC units.

This is a nice first step from Tata.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 10:47   #93
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
So which is the light weight Tata car you are talking about the engine being plonked into?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Nano?
If you think fitting a turbo petrol in Nano would be a joke, please read the following report:

http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...-engine/17711/

The Revotron series comprises 5 engines, two of which are sub one litre engines.

Quote:
We at ZigWheels believe Tata’s next unveil in the Revotron family will be two sub 1-litre engines which will work towards replacing the Tata Nano’s current naturally aspirated power train. There have been strong indications of a more powerful turbocharged Tata Nano on the cards for little over a year now and we would not be surprised if Tata Motors followed the launch of the Nano Twist with a more powerful version in the months to follow. This would be particularly plausible considering how the Tata Nano diesel project is said to have been scrapped due to problems in noise and vibration issues in the drivetrain.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 11:12   #94
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

The various modes of operation could primarily be 2 distinct fuel and ignition mapping options in the Engine ECU that could be operational against the flick of a switch or against certain driving conditions. That would keep it simple, effective and 'creative' enough, while giving the driver a feeling of being in 'Sporty' or 'Econ' mode.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 11:15   #95
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Knowing Tata, they will launch another engine which is 100+ BHP
Nevertheless, kudos to them - this is a great move.

When will they improve their fit/finish? I believe thats where they are getting hit, more than the engines!!!
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Old 22nd January 2014, 11:49   #96
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The name "Revotron" looks like the result of some guy high up in Tata watching too many Transformers movies.
It is a transformer. 85 BHP in some models, 3 Cylinder in Nano, 100 BHP models to come later ?. So it is across segments and thus a transformer.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 13:59   #97
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
The famed 25kmpl CR4 engine returned a puny 16kmpl when we had travelled it for a trip. The driver rarely exceeded 90kmph and was a middle aged sedate driver. He was not impressed with that and told he brought the vehicle only for the promised FE.
My neighbour has a CR4 Diesel Indigo in Champagne Gold colour. He drives daily from Faridabad to Ghaziabad for his work & gets 20-22 kmpl depending on the climate. He had a Spark earlier, & a Indica NA Diesel 70 bhp car (if I am correct) earlier which had run around 2 lac kms with one engine work. Basically, he is a private civil contractor, who works on Govt. Depts. & misc construction projects. He is more satisfied with the Tatas, being robust & general reliability for him, though his cars are used for family & business travel & not carrying loads, workers, etc.

There could be more issues with that car (tyre pressure, jammed brake discs, etc.).

IMO this is definitely a good attempt by Tata (not necessarily meaning I would put my money on them), & sign of good time to come from the company (in terms of more powerful turbo petrol cars) & competitors (the Japs have wonderful turboed small call in Japan). These will any day be more efficient than a big displacement engine if driven sedately, & equally entertaining if driven fast (assuming driving dynamics are constant amongst all such cars).

I feel this mill could be good for 18-20 kmpl, which is good reason for any buyer to go for it. Also, ODI & few others business publications have hinted in their articles that there would be more number & powerful turbo petrol engines for different cars, including Nano (few TBHP-ians have also posted these facts same earlier).

Another good aspect that most have ignored is Tatas' Management & its vision re fossil fuel cars & initiative. In an age when most non-European car majors are waking up to turbo injection of petrol cars, isn't it proud for an Indian car major to have independent presence, & be the earliest adapters in Indian market perspective. I would appreciate Rata Tata & his team for being future oriented/ visionary.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 14:27   #98
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Probably the cost. Anything manufactured in-house should be cheaper than something bought from elsewhere.
Not really. It might be recollected that the Tata-Fiat plant @ Ranjangaon is a joint venture.

Plus, downsizing an engine would involve 10% of the development costs of a new motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
But why display the engine in first place?
Taking a leaf out of Maruti's book. Maruti got a lot of good press when their K12 was unveiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
Idling rpm of a petrol engine is near about 1000 rpm. And max torque starts from as low as 1750 rpm.

So do you call 750 rpm difference in a petrol engine as turbo lag? I dont think so this can be called as a big turbo lag for a petrol engine specifically.
I can list 10 engines that, on paper, make max torque low down the rpm range, but suffer from turbo-lag in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Equus View Post
When will they improve their fit/finish? I believe thats where they are getting hit, more than the engines!!!
They already have!! Check out the Manza. It's got decent fit & finish levels. Not the segment best, but not something owners will complain about either.

It's the image, marketing, reliability & launch of new products that Tata needs to sort out.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 14:45   #99
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I can list 10 engines that, on paper, make max torque low down the rpm range, but suffer from turbo-lag in the real world.
How is that possible? Could you elaborate. I would really like to know about these engines and your experience.

My thought was that if I say 750 rpm as idle rpm of an engine and if we start getting a torque curve which is flat enough and near its peak value from a very low rpm the engine should not have a considerable turbo lag.

Is it the engines turbo lag or the wrong gear ratio selection by the company?

Or am I not clear about the definition of turbo lag?

If the rpm at which I start getting torque good enough for the vehicle to pull cleanly without too many rpm rise I would say the vehicle has less turbo lag.

Thats the point I was trying to make that if for a petrol engines which rev easily beyond 4k rpm a rpm difference of 750 to 1000 to get the vehicle in torque band should not be termed as a big turbo lag.

The above statement will not hold true for diesel engines as they have lower engine rpm ranges.

Take an example, I have a Vista TDI and the turbo starts showing its presence only after 1800 rpm or even more. So from 750 rpm to 1800 rpm I have not much torque coming out from the engine. The useable range of a Vista TDI is way below 3000 rpm above which it starts crying hoarse.

But that is not the same for petrol engines because they rev smoothly and easily above 4 to 4.5k rpm before crying hoarse.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 15:01   #100
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post

http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...-engine/17711/

The Revotron series comprises 5 engines, two of which are sub one litre engines.

Thats definitely a good move no doubt. Only issue with the Nano getting a TC engine is the landing cost. Also is it capable of taking extra power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
They already have!! Check out the Manza. It's got decent fit & finish levels. Not the segment best, but not something owners will complain about either.

It's the image, marketing, reliability & launch of new products that Tata needs to sort out.
Absolutely. The current Manza has a very good fit and finish compared to what they were offering in the previous cars or the first gen Manza itself. To summarise, its a bunch of real good talents in the engineering departments whose efforts and R&D are not being brought out to the masses by the marketing or media team.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 15:07   #101
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Wonder why Tata didn't simply underbore the Linea T-Jet engine to a 1.2L size. After all, Fiat is Tata's partner in India and they already share engines for other cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Probably the cost. Anything manufactured in-house should be cheaper than something bought from elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not really. It might be recollected that the Tata-Fiat plant @ Ranjangaon is a joint venture.
Tata-Fiat plant at Ranjangaon may be a joint venture but it is also a separate legal entity that has to pay royalty to Fiat for using its intellectual property rights in every Fiat designed car and engine, just like Maruti Suzuki has to pay royalty to Suzuki for using Suzuki's IPRs.

Tata saves on royalty payments by not using Fiat engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Plus, downsizing an engine would involve 10% of the development costs of a new motor.
1.2 Revotron is not a new motor but merely an improved Xeta motor whch uses the same block as Indica diesel. Investment in the Indica project was made in late 1990s and recouped long ago.

Incidentally, when the 4 meter, 1200CC/1500CC excise rule was implemented in India for small cars, Fiat India, instead of downsizing Palio's 1242 CC engine to avail the excise benefit, chose to bring a 1100 CC engine from Italy which was introduced in Palio Stile. In the process, Palio lost 15 horses!

Last edited by directinjection : 22nd January 2014 at 15:13.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 18:51   #102
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
My thought was that if I say 750 rpm as idle rpm of an engine and if we start getting a torque curve which is flat enough and near its peak value from a very low rpm the engine should not have a considerable turbo lag.
All bhp and torque numbers quoted by companies on paper are peak #s.... ie at WOT

In real life you are more likely to drive the car at 40-50% throttle so that 'peak torque at 1750' is only a rough indicator of how lag free it its at half throttle

Last edited by Mpower : 22nd January 2014 at 22:26.
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Old 22nd January 2014, 21:14   #103
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Good step up for TATA when MPFi engines are still holding major stake in market.

But with 1.2l engine Euro IV compliant engine, it won’t be late when this engine becomes obsolete.
TATA should soon focus on Asian/European market and not just India.

They can get away with values for Euro IV emission with some tweaks in exhaust system however when targeting global market they need a quick
upgrade to common rail injections with Euro V and VI emission norms.
GDIs are future and with the small engine base targeting hybrid is not so difficult.

But at first it’s not a bad strategy at all . Below is a short comparison of gasoline engines from Autocarindia.
Spec seems to be interesting with optimum power delivery at lower rpms however can never beat VWs 1.2l TSI engine if they do not upgrade the Revotron in near future.
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-Comparison from Autocarindia

-UB
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Old 23rd January 2014, 17:46   #104
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by Nilesh5417 View Post
Is 85PS really the max Tata will produce from this engine? What will prevent it from running this engine in various states of tuning with higher-lower power? I expect multiple states of tune later if not today.
Remember Sergei Bubka. Do you want all the excitement in one go? Wouldn't it be nicer to get a 15PS bump every 6 months
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Old 23rd January 2014, 19:39   #105
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Default Re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
The USP of Revotron could be driveability and good FE what with the peak torque available from as low as 1750 which is quite an achievement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by praveear View Post
The kind of specs(85 ps, 140Nm 1750-3500rpm) are on offer surely implies that they want to satisfy the bigger chunk of masses who want an all rounded performance from their machines rather than few insatiable enthusiasts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Is 100bhp the holy grail? Or is a car going to be fast with 100bhp? Lets first see where is this engine going to be used.
Thanks to these folks for having said exactly what I had in mind. TATA has the R&D potential to develop the technology to create these engines (maybe with external help), but the fact that this is a design & development effort is commendable. I am confident that once track proven, this will become a base engine for the hatches and small cars to follow, like the CR4 1.4 and the 2.2 DICOR. This might also be the 4 cyl version of the now proven Nano motor (although the CI block suggests the Xeta lineage)?

This is definitely not a revamped Safire engine, that does not have a CI block. It seems a build up of the Xeta engine, an exercise similar to the transformation of the 475 IDI to the CR4. (addition of turbo charger and the CRDi fuel system).

A close look will show the differences between the much talked of K12 motor and the 1.2T. In terms of power, its just 2 bhp more, but achieved at 6000 rpm vs 5000 in the Rovotron) and the torque is 2.7 kgm MORE starting at a low 1750 rpm. This figure is better ONLY in the VW 1.2TSI, which is and is marketed as a performance engine. As Auto Car also clarifies, this engine is designed to combine the virtues of driveability, power AND FE. This translates to better driveability, gradient capability, assuming a matched gear box. This should also cater for the heavier weight expected in a robust TATA shell, against skinny tyres and open boot lid insides of the City & Etios likes, just to reduce every kilo.

As far as the so-called number enthusiats are concerned, allow me to reproduce a comparison table from Auto Car India's site:

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...etter#comments

Ultimately, these are all just numbers, and only a first drive of this engine in its eventual host cars will reveal how successful Tata has been with its first in-house turbo-petrol engine. The price of these cars will also be telling, as all the technology that has gone into making this engine will surely have been costly, and some of this will undoubtedly be passed on to the customer. But then Tata Motors is known for delivering ‘more car per car’, so there’s a good chance the cars that carry the Revotron 1.2T turbo-petrol engine will be priced very competitively.


The less noticed but arguably more significant performance figure in the real world is the torque output, and here’s where Tata’s new engine has the others beaten. It produces a meaty 14.3kgm from as low as 1,750rpm to 3,500rpm. The average max torque the naturally aspirated engines on this list produce is about 11kgm, and you have to rev most of them all the way to about 4,000rpm to reach it.


Tata Revotron 1.2T 1,193cc, 4 cyl, turbo 83.8bhp at 5,000rpm 14.3kgm at 1,750-3,500rpm.
Tata Xeta 1.2 1,193cc, 4 cyl 64bhp at 5,000rpm 10.2kgm at 2,600rpm
Maruti K12 1,197cc, 4 cyl, VVT 85.8bhp at 6,000rpm 11.6kgm at 4,000rpm
VW 1.2 TSI 1,197cc, 4 cyl, direct injection, turbo 103bhp at 5,000rpm 17.84kgm at 1,500-4,100rpm.
VW 1.2 1,198cc, 3 cyl 74bhp at 5,400rpm 11.2kgm at 3,750rpm
Hyundai 1.2 Kappa2 1,197cc, 4 cyl, VVT 81.8bhp at 6,000rpm 11.6kgm at 4,000rpm
Honda 1.2 i-VTEC 1,198cc, 4 cyl, VVT 88bhp at 6,000rpm 11.1kgm at 4,600rpm
Toyota 1.2 1,197cc, 4 cyl 79bhp at 5,600rpm 10.6kgm at 3,100rpm
Chevrolet 1.2 1,199cc, 4 cyl 84.8bhp at 6,000rpm 11.5kgm at 5,000rpm
Fiat 1.2 FIRE 1,172cc, 4 cyl 67bhp at 6,000rpm 9.76kgm at 4,400rpm
Ford 1.2 Duratec 1,196cc, 4 cyl 70bhp at 6,250rpm 10.4kgm at 4,000rpm
Nissan 1.2 1,198cc, 3 cyl 75bhp at 6,000rpm 10.6kgm at 4,000rpm
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