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Old 27th January 2014, 16:13   #16
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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post

1. Will ONLY the top end variant be tested or all variants will be tested?

2. It mentions all new version of cars will undergo testing - hope this includes even face-lifted versions

3. Hope they do NOT allow cars scoring lower than 2 or 3 stars to be sold in the market.

5. Hope they also release the video of the crash test for every cars once they start the process.

6. Hope they derive very stringent rules for the crash tests and do NOT offer to deploy years old rules which will allow manufactures to dump those outdated vehicles in the market. This one point alone will make sure we get absolutely worthy and new breed of vehicles leaving manufacturers NO choice to give us nothing but their BEST!
1. Knowing Indian companies as well as the public, the top variant might be tested and the manufacturers will boast about it even for the lowest variants.

2. I don't see a need for checking facelifts as no structural component gets changed. It's usually the light assembly design, a small new feature (eg. turn lights on ORVM, etc) All the mounting points and the engine bay remains the same. Even Euro NCAP doesn't seem to test facelifts.

3. That depends on the scoring system, doesn't it? I think they should send cars to the IIHS and not conduct tests locally, and that too randomly. Just FYI, the scorpio got a pathetic 2 or 3 star rating in the Australian NCAP.

5. Let's hope for that as per RTI.

6. Just like the emission norms, I expect them to copy this from Europe's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
1: What is be the minimum safety requirements for the car - ABS, airbags etc.

2: What is the minimum crash safety requirement

How will they measure, with what?
Just like Euro NCAP, mostly by the forces experienced by the dummy, places where the dummy makes contact with the car's body, compartment stability, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
All maruti varients apart from Swift & SX4 will fail these tests hopelessly. They do not have a chance to pass any kind of crash test.
Please don't say that. The Ritz, A-Star, Grand Vitara and Kizashi are there too. But point noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Saar, Swift should also include all Swift varients such as Swift Dzire (Swift with Boot) , Ertiga (Stretched Swift).

I am also on the fence if the top-selling Japanese brands launched by maruti like Zen Estilo, Wagon R would atleast in their initial round of introduction into Indian market fail any crash tests. They may just do OK.
We very well saw the results of Maruti tinkering with Suzuki's decently crashworthy car (K10 vs F8D)

I have a feeling the Estilo (pre facelift), WagonR and Eeco/ Versa might just do OK.

The current cars are crash tested!!?? What do they do after that? How on earth did they let the K10 and Omni to be sold then?

Nonetheless, it's a very welcome move by the Authorities. At last we will have safe cars. Hope the tests are not a joke like the ARAI mileage tests. At least at first, I don't expect all cars to come with ESC or to undergo roof strength, side, pole or small overlap tests, but we'll get there eventually.

Now the only things remaining are enforcing traffic rules, ensuring well maintained vehicles (including HCVs and working lights), decent roads with side railings to ward off cows/animals, no high beams and giving permits to only those who can actually drive.

The only downside I can see for this is that if people become aware of this, the resale value of unsafe cars will plummet.
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Old 27th January 2014, 16:26   #17
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

About Maruti Suzuki cars - the old Swift (4* in 2005), SX4 (4* in 2006), Splash/Ritz (4* in 2008), Alto/A-Star (3* in 2009) and the new Swift (5* in 2010) all performed well enough in the stringent Euro-NCAP crash tests. These are the European versions of course, and the Indian cars should be reasonably safe too, *as long as Maruti Suzuki did not make any structural changes/crumple zone modifications*. One can also include the Dzire (old and new) in this list, as they are basically booted versions of the hatches, just like the SX4. The Grand Vitara and Kizashi should be very safe, as these are imported from Japan and come with safety features as standard.

It must be noted that the Euro-NCAP tested Suzuki Alto (3*) was a made-in-India A-Star (but equipped with 4 airbags). Also, a made-in-India A-Star (marketed as the Suzuki Celerio) was crash-tested by Latin-NCAP, alongside the Alto k10. While the latter's results have become (in)famous now, the Celerio/A-Star with 2 airbags got a creditable 4* for adult occupant protection. Latin-NCAP uses slightly older, less stringent Euro-NCAP standards for awarding stars (the test conditions are the same, though).

The crash-worthiness of the decades-old vehicles from the Maruti Suzuki stable remains a matter of great concern indeed. As is the crash-worthiness of those models whose engine bay (front crumple zone) was modified/elongated by Maruti to squeeze in the K10B engine, without getting the modified monocoque structures tested independently by NCAP organisations.

Crash-worthiness concerns are also valid for cars sold in India by many other manufacturers that have not been through *independent* NCAP-testing anywhere in the world. In-house crash testing by manufacturers doesn't mean much as the public will never get to know the full results or the true picture of such self-conducted crash tests. Governments' legally-mandated crash-test norms worldwide are also (generally) much less stringent than independent NCAP & NCAP-like norms.

Last edited by RSR : 27th January 2014 at 16:45.
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Old 27th January 2014, 16:39   #18
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
...Based on the results of the crash test, hope the manufacturers are encouraged, nay mandated to bring airbags into all variants that they sell across all product lines.
Precisely - I hope they test ALL the variants of a car and also allow only vehicles with certain rank clear the test. I think the easiest way for a manufacturer will be to provide ABS & Airbags as standard equipment to score higher. They anyway will pass the cost to the customer.

The second point is, since these rules will be same for all manufacturers, ALL of them will start providing these; which means there is NO cost advantage between manufacturers which puts (all of) them on a level playing field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amolbh View Post
1. Knowing Indian companies as well as the public, the top variant might be tested and the manufacturers will boast about it even for the lowest variants...
As I said, if the rule is NOT to pass variants which do NOT attain certain ranks, then I doubt the lower variants will make into the list to sell in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amolbh View Post
..2. I don't see a need for checking facelifts as no structural component gets changed. It's usually the light assembly design, a small new feature (eg. turn lights on ORVM, etc) All the mounting points and the engine bay remains the same. Even Euro NCAP doesn't seem to test facelifts...
Some times, more than that. The idea of getting the facelifts involved is because, we have some models which have been long in the tooth, still getting facelifted and being sold. When the manufacturers are making money, let them prove it's worth too. Or bring in a new generation, all in all. Why do you need to let them get away because those have been here for some time?!

If those are NOT worthy, let them stop milking the customers with those products.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 27th January 2014 at 16:40.
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Old 27th January 2014, 17:30   #19
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Some times, more than that. The idea of getting the facelifts involved is because, we have some models which have been long in the tooth, still getting facelifted and being sold. When the manufacturers are making money, let them prove it's worth too. Or bring in a new generation, all in all. Why do you need to let them get away because those have been here for some time?!
When they say "Gov plans to conduct complete crash test all cars by 2015" it means whatever is being sold at that time instance. If it is a facelift of any generation, it doesn't matter. Once a car (generation) has proven itself, no need to waste Government's money on crash tests. Also, the manufacturer wouldn't skimp on structural integrity cause it should again cost the company more money.

Btw, those dummies COST A BOMB. Abroad, the companies themselves volunteer for these tests. Doubtful here.
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Old 27th January 2014, 18:50   #20
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by amolbh View Post
When they say "Gov plans to conduct complete crash test all cars by 2015" it means whatever is being sold at that time instance...
While you went with the thread title, my post was based on the content in the link provided - which is highlighted below.

Quote:
In the next one-and-a-half years, complete crash test of all new cars may happen in India...

...Once NCAP is notified, all new samples of vehicles will have to undergo safety test
From my understanding of these highlighted terms, it hints ONLY on the all new cars being subjected to the test which should NOT be the case.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 27th January 2014 at 18:51.
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Old 27th January 2014, 19:20   #21
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
While you went with the thread title, my post was based on the content in the link provided - which is highlighted below.

From my understanding of these highlighted terms, it hints ONLY on the all new cars being subjected to the test which should NOT be the case.
If that is so, it's REALLY BAD. Contraptions like the Omni and the remaining A1 category hatches will live on forever
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Old 27th January 2014, 21:07   #22
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Once this is introduced, we'll get air bags in the cars but ABS might still be the premium feature. ABS has no role to play in crash test.

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
What will surely fail crash tests are those brands launched entirely by Maruti like the 'Made for India Alto', the EECO (stripped down Versa, and Versa was anyways a stripped down full-size MUV) and cars modded by Maruti for Indian market.
While the results of the low end Maruti are expected to be low, even its competitors are unlikely to do much better. However, we might have some surprises higher in the ladder. I'm reasonably sure that the Toyota Etios would also be on the borderline for the crash test results. That's also a 'made for India' car. Most of the crashes involving Etios have resulted in fatality of all passengers inside, with the cars getting mangled beyond recognition.
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Old 27th January 2014, 21:10   #23
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

This will be postponed quite a few times. I predict it will not come in to effect before 2020.
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Old 27th January 2014, 21:32   #24
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Once this is introduced, we'll get air bags in the cars but ABS might still be the premium feature. ABS has no role to play in crash test.
Very true! The crash tests determine only the crash worthiness of the car and the potential injuries to passengers inside by using dummies. Though some NCAP programs (such as the Euro-NCAP) award top star ratings only if other active and passive safety features including ABS, ESP etc. are present, government mandated tests only test the crash worthiness. While some governments have made ABS a mandatory requirement, the Indian government - well, it's better left unsaid.

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
I'm reasonably sure that the Toyota Etios would also be on the borderline for the crash test results. That's also a 'made for India' car. Most of the crashes involving Etios have resulted in fatality of all passengers inside, with the cars getting mangled beyond recognition.
By no means am I a fan of the made-for-India (and similar countries) Toyota Etios & Etios Liva, but we must give Toyota some credit where it's due. The Brazilian Etios (Liva) with 2 airbags was crash-tested by Latin-NCAP in October 2012 and it got a creditable 4* for adult protection (and 2* for child protection):

http://www.latinncap.com/data/pdf/to...airbags-en.pdf

I can only hope the Indian Liva & Etios are as safe as the Brazilian versions.

Last edited by RSR : 27th January 2014 at 21:37.
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Old 27th January 2014, 21:41   #25
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
By no means am I a fan of the made-for-India (and similar countries) Toyota Etios & Etios Liva, but we must give Toyota some credit where it's due. The Brazilian Etios (Liva) with 2 airbags was crash-tested by Latin-NCAP in October 2012 and it got a creditable 4* for adult protection (and 2* for child protection):

http://www.latinncap.com/data/pdf/to...airbags-en.pdf

I can only hope the Indian Liva & Etios are at least as safe as the Brazilian versions.
Interesting. Here are two specimens of Etios from our Accidents thread that formed my opinion.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post3058689

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post3080529

If this is how a 4-star safety looks like after a crash, I don't want to imagine anything lower!

Last edited by zenren : 27th January 2014 at 21:44.
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Old 27th January 2014, 21:55   #26
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Interesting. Here are two specimens of Etios from our Accidents thread that formed my opinion.

If this is how a 4-star safety looks like after a crash, I don't want to imagine anything lower!
Though the circumstances of those accidents are not clear, those pictures look very scary indeed.

I read an article about how the same cars made in different countries (basically countries with stringent safety norms and those without) fare very differently when it comes to crash-worthiness (cannot find the link now), due to differences in the way the chassis is welded together, cost-cutting efforts etc. It was a real eye-opener.

All I can hope is that Toyota does not resort to such a practice for the Etios/Liva.

Last edited by RSR : 27th January 2014 at 21:57.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:17   #27
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post

I read an article about how the same cars made in different countries (basically countries with stringent safety norms and those without) fare very differently when it comes to crash-worthiness (cannot find the link now), due to differences in the way the chassis is welded together, cost-cutting efforts etc. It was a real eye-opener.
I thought the things that make a real difference in such tests are the construction of front sub frame , impact bar , collapsible steering , airbags, shatterproof glass

Would a differently welded chassis make a significant difference to the results of a crash? in terms of measuring the impact on a dummy?
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Old 28th January 2014, 01:22   #28
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
I thought the things that make a real difference in such tests are the construction of front sub frame , impact bar , collapsible steering , airbags, shatterproof glass

Would a differently welded chassis make a significant difference to the results of a crash? in terms of measuring the impact on a dummy?
I found the link I mentioned earlier about manufacturers making the same cars differently for the developed countries and the rest of the world (including the BRICS and other such countries). It contains the answer to your question about welding making a difference to crash safety, from an inside expert:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-cars...180411170.html
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Old 28th January 2014, 10:49   #29
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

While it is commendable that the government is planning to test crash worthiness of cars sold here, I resent any move to ban any car from being sold because of bad ratings. Being a libertarian I support each individual's right to choice of the kind of vehicle they want. To be in a safe car or not is a choice the individual should make, and you may extend that to the right to die in a crash. The cost of a life in India being paltry, i don't think many would bother. And the amount of money he saved by not buying a safe car would be busy accumulating compound interest in the bank.
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Old 29th January 2014, 14:59   #30
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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While it is commendable that the government is planning to test crash worthiness of cars sold here, I resent any move to ban any car from being sold because of bad ratings. Being a libertarian I support each individual's right to choice of the kind of vehicle they want. To be in a safe car or not is a choice the individual should make, and you may extend that to the right to die in a crash. The cost of a life in India being paltry, i don't think many would bother. And the amount of money he saved by not buying a safe car would be busy accumulating compound interest in the bank.
As long as we have government hospitals in our country that offer free treatment to the accident victims, the government has the right to ban vehicles due to poor safety standards which could result in inflicting grave injuries to the passengers which could have been minor injuries in case of a safer car.

"Right to die in a crash" cannot be deemed legal for the simple reason that there would be other passengers too in that vehicle who would suffer and possibly die in case of an accident. Since we are speaking about cars here, we can assume that the "right to die in a crash" you are speaking about is basically a decision that the owner takes for his entire family. I don't think any philosophy would give the head of a household the right to take lives of everyone in that household.

Even the fellow road users who are party in an accident would suffer if someone with a "death-wish" dies in an accident. The other driver would be booked with "accident resulting in death" instead of just "accident" which have totally different consequences.
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