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Old 29th January 2014, 17:30   #31
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
As long as we have government hospitals in our country that offer free treatment to the accident victims, the government has the right to ban vehicles due to poor safety standards which could result in inflicting grave injuries to the passengers which could have been minor injuries in case of a safer car.

"Right to die in a crash" cannot be deemed legal for the simple reason that there would be other passengers too in that vehicle who would suffer and possibly die in case of an accident. Since we are speaking about cars here, we can assume that the "right to die in a crash" you are speaking about is basically a decision that the owner takes for his entire family. I don't think any philosophy would give the head of a household the right to take lives of everyone in that household.

Even the fellow road users who are party in an accident would suffer if someone with a "death-wish" dies in an accident. The other driver would be booked with "accident resulting in death" instead of just "accident" which have totally different consequences.
If you want to take the legal point of view, then you don't need all the yada yada, there is a law against suicide. I was talking about liberty. And law does not always recognize individual liberties.
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Old 31st January 2014, 09:22   #32
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Don't know if this has been already posted. NDTV reports that Global NCAP has carried out a test on some of India's best selling cars last year, in partnership with India's Institute of Road Traffic Education (IRTE). The cars that were chosen were the Tata Nano, Maruti Suzuki Alto 800, Hyundai i10, Ford Figo and Volkswagen Polo. As per the report, of the five cars, only the Figo and Polo showed good structural rigidity. Link below-

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ma...-lateststories

Last edited by riturajsharma19 : 31st January 2014 at 09:33.
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Old 31st January 2014, 09:39   #33
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by riturajsharma19 View Post
Don't know if this has been already posted. NDTV reports that Global NCAP has carried out a test on some of India's best selling cars, in partnership with India's Institute of Road Traffic Education (IRTE). The cars that were chosen were the Tata Nano, Maruti Suzuki Alto 800, Hyundai i10, Ford Figo and Volkswagen Polo. As per the report, of the five cars, only the Figo and Polo showed good structural rigidity. Link below-

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ma...-lateststories
Whoa! Thats some news! Really surprised to see this, especially the Nano and the i10. Even the Polo was unexpected.

Sad to see Hyundai too sacrificing safety for profits.

For me, my next car would only be a Swift.
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Old 31st January 2014, 10:18   #34
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by riturajsharma19 View Post
Don't know if this has been already posted. NDTV reports that Global NCAP has carried out a test on some of India's best selling cars last year, in partnership with India's Institute of Road Traffic Education (IRTE). The cars that were chosen were the Tata Nano, Maruti Suzuki Alto 800, Hyundai i10, Ford Figo and Volkswagen Polo.
The car selection criteria seems to be a little shady and seems to me like an effort to promote European cars by labelling them as safer, though their respective Japanese counterparts were not tested. In a nutshell, this test would give out an impression that Asian manufacturers compromise on safety while the Europeans don't, though they are doing an apples to oranges comparison. I would be interested to know how the Figo and Polo fares against the Swift, i20 and Amaze which are their direct competition.

Any list which is supposed to be a good reflection of the Indian market would be incomplete without Alto, Swift/Dzire, Wagon R, Bolero, i10 and Brio/Amaze at a bare minimum since they sell the most every month. Vista was a better choice than Nano if they had to include one Tata car since it sells more every month.

I'm really curious as to why these guys didn't include Swift in the test when that is the car that sells the most. From a crash test perspective, testing the Swift would account for Swift and Dzire which together becomes the largest selling car in the country, even more than the Alto. If they tested Polo, it can't be that they just considered segments lower than Swift.

BTW, I liked the idea of testing the lowest variant available. That'll ensure that these guys wouldn't compromise on safety in any variant.

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For me, my next car would only be a Swift.
Though we don't know for sure, even the Indian Swift could be compromised on safety. European Swifts are made from Hungary IIRC and need not reflect the safety aspects of Indian model.
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Old 31st January 2014, 10:53   #35
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

I like this thread ... a lot. I think I'll try to add my two cents to this thread with the hope that it adds value to it ...

1. I own a Brio, with front dual airbags, ABS (+ EBD) and of course, seat belts (I read that it doesn't have crumple zones so mat not fare too well when taking an impact). I make it a point to wear seat belts every time I drive (habituated, if you may will). I also enjoy longer drives from time to time and try and maintain my speeds (even on open and free highways) to below 100kph as I have felt that anything above that I am unable to track everything around me (traffic to people to animals). I seem to be much slower than the rest of the 'car' crowd belting past at speeds in excess of 120kph, though.

This begs question 1: I am not even sure what a safe speed limit is for Indian highways, how does that translate to safety and driver education before the driver even steps into the vehicle to take control of it?

Continuing with my highway talk, I have also noted that there is a hugh population of trucks on the highway at significantly lower speeds (less than 50kph) occupying both the lanes (or three or four). When I read about all the accidents on the road, most of the accidents occur between dissimilar vehicle types (for e.g., cars and trucks, cars and buses, buses and trucks ...). This brings me to point 2.

2. If cars are subject to crash tests, I suppose all the goods carriers and larger vehicles must also go through this crash testing to comply for safety of the vehicle it hits! and I think it's only fair. I guess Europe has a mandate on this.

I think crash testing Indian cars is a fantastic thing, but I am also suggesting there should be a wholistic review of driver education and driving guidelines. I think most accidents in India can be avoided merely by using the 'stuff between the ears' as fellow bhpian KiloAlpha mentioned. I would also echo the sentiments of other fellow bhpians, RSR, zenren and swiftnfurious about older cars, variants, other safety features and emergency response getting into the mix of safety ratings. It's quite a sophisticated concept really, and I hope for a change they get it right quickly.
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Old 31st January 2014, 13:04   #36
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I just saw the report on global NCAP crash testing of Indian cars on NDTV, and although the results were as expected I am shocked by the performance of the i10. AFAIK i10 is a global model but the way it performed during the test just confirms the fact that the Indian i10 is poorly build compared to the ones abroad. If airbags were present on that car, it would have caused even more injuries as the dashboard caves in dangerously during the crash and airbags would hit the face in full force making matters worse. I always had a feeling that the only cars that are marginally safer under 10 lakh segment would be the cars from Skoda, Fiat, VW and Ford. Our ' Accidents in India' thread also shows a similar trend. If someone would make a ratio of serious accidents to the number of deaths it would be the lowest for these manufacturers. All manufacturers seems to be cutting down on safety so even if we own a global model with 5 star safety God knows how safe our cars in India are. I would love to be proved wrong and it would have been great if the government conducts crash testing for not only new cars but the existing cars too. If manufacturers don't value the life of their customers they should be made to feel the heat of it at some point of time. It would have been great if they had tested the i20, swift and punto too. That would have enabled a comparison of cars from the same segment. Seems like VW hasn't compromised on safety a lot.
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Old 31st January 2014, 15:22   #37
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Just to clarify for the benefit of readers who didn't go through the article - all 5 cars including Ford Figo and VW Polo got a ZERO rating and failed the test.

However, a Polo variant with airbags secured a 4 star rating - this just shows how much difference an airbag can make even if the structural integrity of the cabin is preserved in a crash.

One more inference after watching these crash test videos is that it is meaningless to have airbags while buying a car like Alto800 - airbags help only if the structural integrity of the cabin is preserved in a collision.
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Old 31st January 2014, 15:30   #38
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by amolbh View Post
Really surprised to see this, especially the Nano and the i10. Even the Polo was unexpected.
Sad to see Hyundai too sacrificing safety for profits.
For me, my next car would only be a Swift.
This is already being discussed in (Euro NCAP Ratings of cars sold in India)this thread. Do understand that all the models tested were base models and airbags are mandatory for this test. Any car without airbags will get a 0 irrespective of their shell integrity.
The Polo was the only car in the test where no fatally severe (red on the crash test dummy) injury was reported.
See the discussion over there. What makes you think that Swift is any better? According to posts, Maruti also has separate manufacturing for European and Indian markets. Everybody does that, even Toyota.
As expressed by mi2n in the other thread, just look at the weight difference between the models manufactured for markets where crash testing is mandatory and the ones engineered for India. Here, every kilo saved is better because people care only about kitna deti hai.

Last edited by A350XWB : 31st January 2014 at 15:34.
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Old 31st January 2014, 16:08   #39
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
See the discussion over there. What makes you think that Swift is any better?
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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Though we don't know for sure, even the Indian Swift could be compromised on safety. European Swifts are made from Hungary IIRC and need not reflect the safety aspects of Indian model.
I recently read that Maruti has started exporting CKD kits for European LHD Swifts. Still, since the car sells here in large quantities, they do have a reason to tinker around with the car.
But they don't seem to have done so, here's why:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...d-my-life.html
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-accident.html (My Dzire met with an accident)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
However, a Polo variant with airbags secured a 4 star rating - this just shows how much difference an airbag can make even if the structural integrity of the cabin is preserved in a crash.

One more inference after watching these crash test videos is that it is meaningless to have airbags while buying a car like Alto800 - airbags help only if the structural integrity of the cabin is preserved in a collision.
About a Polo whose airbags didn't get deployed (not a frontal crash):
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...y-vw-polo.html (God saved me on the Mumbai-Pune Expressway (in a VW Polo))

So what I've learnt is not to go as per the star rating alone, but the car's structure matters A LOT too. Can't say for the i10 since the report is misleading.
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Old 31st January 2014, 16:53   #40
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

A damning report, if ever there was one, about the crash-worthiness of cars on sale in India! This comes as a real eye-opener, and just the kind of report I was waiting for.

Just to be clear, this *Global-NCAP star rating* is NOT equivalent to the latest Euro-NCAP star rating. While the test conditions are the same, Euro-NCAP is much more stringent when it comes to awarding stars, as they also do a side impact test, pole impact test, pedestrian impact test and consider the presence (and functioning) of other active and passive safety features (such as ABS, ESP, seatbelt warning, speed alert etc.)

This test they have conducted on Indian cars uses the Global-NCAP star ratings - basically much older, less stringent Euro-NCAP criteria for awarding stars. The front impact test conditions remain the same though. NCAP organisations around the world have now accepted this star rating as the global minimum NCAP criteria for awarding stars (region specific NCAPs are free to use even more stringent star ratings). In essence, the Global-NCAP star rating is similar to the current Latin-NCAP star rating, but much less stringent than Euro-NCAP's latest criteria for awarding stars.

And how have the Indian cars performed? The results are there for the entire world to see and know the nasty truth:

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Full results:

http://www.globalncap.org/wp-content..._result_v2.pdf

So now we can be absolutely sure of the crash-worthiness of at least a few cars sold in India. The Alto k10 now has some worthy companions from different manufacturers (apart from a sibling) in the ZERO-star league. I'm 100% certain that this list is very long indeed!

I hope the report causes severe tremors in the Indian automobile industry and makes the Indian car buying public wake up, apart from exposing the manufacturers' utterly callous attitude towards the safety of their customers, and the despicable double standards (of many manufacturers) in making safe cars for the First World and unsafe cars for the Third World. This is exactly what is happening in Brazil and Latin America. After it got exposed, manufacturers are taking safety more seriously in Latin America, and Latin-NCAP was formed to expose the safety of the cars to the South American buying public. I can only hope an Indian-NCAP is not too far away!

In fact, the effects are already visible! VW suddenly announced that they are soon offering at least two airbags standard across their entire range of cars sold here. I was wondering why this sudden and surprising (but very, very welcome!) move and here is the reason. To be fair to Volkswagen, the Polo Highline (with 2 airbags) that is sold in India has got a creditable 4* for adult protection (and 3* for child protection) in this test. So all VW models in the near future will be rated at least 4* for adult protection.

And to be fair to Ford, the Figo Titanium (with 2 airbags) should have performed better if it was tested. NCAP deliberately tests the lowest variant for crash-worthiness, and this is very important for a country like India where safety features as basic as two airbags are offered only on the top model. Ford must follow VW's lead in offering at least two airbags as standard on all their cars.

Hyundai's nasty attitude in manufacturing the i10 differently for different markets has been clearly exposed here. Shame on you, Hyundai! The European i10 that is exported from India gets 4* for adult protection and a stable passenger compartment (link), while the Indian i10 made in the same factory gets a ZERO! I'm not sure if the Indian i10 Asta and Asta(O) with two airbags would have fared any better, since the passenger compartment has been rated as unstable on impact. These two variants have also been discontinued now. Even the i10 made in Malaysia for that market got a 2* rating for adult protection in the ASEAN-NCAP (link)! This is in no way going to help their goal of becoming "the most loved car brand in India". Hyundai must change course immediately, and build even their least expensive, entry-level cars to the same standard everywhere. And yes, offer at least two airbags as standard on all their cars.

Global-NCAP has done a huge service to India and Indians with these tests, and they cannot be thanked enough for their eye-opener! My humble request to them is to test the base variants of at least the top 20 selling cars in India and publish the results for all to see. God bless them for initiating the much needed changes to improve the crash-worthiness of cars sold in India!

Last edited by RSR : 31st January 2014 at 17:20.
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Old 31st January 2014, 18:50   #41
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by amolbh View Post
Still, since the car sells here in large quantities, they do have a reason to tinker around with the car.
But they don't seem to have done so, here's why:
About a Polo whose airbags didn't get deployed (not a frontal crash):
amolbh, there are other threads where Hyundais, Fiats etc. have saved lives. Every accident is different and so is the outcome. Crash testing is the only place, probably, where all the cars are put through the same kind of environment while testing. So, by looking at accident threads, we cannot deduce anything.

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Hyundai's nasty attitude in manufacturing the i10 differently for different markets has been clearly exposed here. Shame on you, Hyundai!
RSR, with all respect, you forgot to mention the manufacturer who started it all and showed others that in India, kitna deti hai is the mantra to sell cars, Maruti Udyog Limited. The first blame should go to them as they are the ones who pioneered the tinny car saga. I would definitely like to see the crash test results of their highest selling cars in the local market (Alto K10, Alto 800 are already out) like WagonR, A-Star (not EU or Latin specific), Omni. I think that the Swift will do well because the kerb weight of the Swift (ZXi) sold in India and Europe are the same and the car seems to be more or less the same. But don't know about the LXi & VXi variants. Same is the case with Hyundai i20 Asta. But points to be noted is that the Swift which was tested in EU has Side head, side body and driver knee airbags and ESP which are not available in the Indian version. But for the Hyundai Asta, only the ESP is missing in the Indian version.
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Old 31st January 2014, 22:10   #42
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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amolbh, there are other threads where Hyundais, Fiats etc. have saved lives. Every accident is different and so is the outcome. Crash testing is the only place, probably, where all the cars are put through the same kind of environment while testing. So, by looking at accident threads, we cannot deduce anything.
I second this view. Real world accidents can never be replicated in the crash testing laboratories. All NCAP can do is devise tests that measure the occupants' survivability and extent of injuries under standardised, replicable conditions that mimic the most common scenarios (front offset, side impact, pole/tree impact etc.) at sane speeds. A speed of 64 kmph is quite common (though illegal) even in Indian cities during off-peak hours, leave alone highways and expressways.

A car that is certified to perform very well in the NCAP laboratory at 64 kmph, need not necessarily be safe in a similar real world situation at 100 kmph, for instance. We simply cannot deduce the circumstances, speeds, angle of impact, secondary impact etc. from the pictures on the Team-BHP accidents thread. In many cases, we don't even know what happened to those cars. All we have are pictures of mangled, crumpled metal which were cars earlier. We cannot conclude that a car is unsafe (or safe) just by looking at those pictures.

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RSR, with all respect, you forgot to mention the manufacturer who started it all and showed others that in India, kitna deti hai is the mantra to sell cars, Maruti Udyog Limited. The first blame should go to them as they are the ones who pioneered the tinny car saga.
Believe me, I had no intention of letting Maruti Suzuki off the hook by bashing Hyundai alone. I was particularly worried on seeing the Indian i10's pathetic performance because that's the one we use. Hyundai must be criticised heavily for building the same car to different standards in the same factory.

As far as Maruti Suzuki are concerned - yes, they are also just as bad and may be the pioneers. The European, Japanese, ASEAN and South American versions of the A-Star, Ritz and Swift do fare well in the respective NCAPs. But we would not know the true crash-worthiness of the Indian Z_i variants (with 2 airbags), until they are tested by Global-NCAP. The L_i & V_i versions would fare poorly as they don't have airbags at all.

The lower variants of the i20 without airbags would also fare poorly. The crash-worthiness of the Sportz and Asta variants depends on whether Hyundai also build the i20 to different standards. While it's good that they sell the i20 1.2 Asta(O) with 6 airbags, which is the most affordable car in India with anything more than 2 airbags, I still would like to see the NCAP results for the Asta and Asta(O).

Testing of the variants with 2 airbags by Global NCAP would expose the cars that are built to different standards by their respective manufacturers, not just Maruti Suzuki and Hyundai. Plus there are loads of India specific models as well as those that have not been through any kind of NCAP testing anywhere else in the world. These need to be tested and have their crash-worthiness rated by NCAP. This unhealthy and unsafe race to the bottom by taking cost-cutting and greed to extreme levels must be stopped and reversed immediately.

However, testing of the base variants and the resulting shock-treatment is the only way to make these manufacturers provide 2 airbags as standard. We already have a positive from this test - Volkswagen cars from now on will come with at least 2 airbags. So these tests have already brought about a change for the better - kudos to Global NCAP!

Last edited by RSR : 31st January 2014 at 22:18.
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Old 31st January 2014, 23:54   #43
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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A car that is certified to perform very well in the NCAP laboratory at 64 kmph, need not necessarily be safe in a similar real world situation at 100 kmph, for instance.
It is the relative speed that matters in a collision, which could be considerably more in Indian conditions where we have traffic in both directions. So if a car that is supposedly safe at 64 kmph is driven at 60kmph and hits head on with another vehicle coming from the opposite direction at 60kmph, the effective speed of collision is 60+60=120kmph, something no crash test apparently certifies!

We always see cars hitting walls and not other moving objects when it comes to crash tests. Its good enough for the western world since most of their highways have proper lane system with unidirectional traffic for the high speed highways and hence it would address most accidents there. In India, most accidents involve other vehicles too and hence the speed of collision is not just dependent on our speed but multiple other factors too.
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Old 1st February 2014, 00:18   #44
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Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars by 2015?

That means an awful lot more accidents this year.

But seriously: I wish they would test the drivers instead. It would be far more beneficial.
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Old 1st February 2014, 07:59   #45
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A few points here:

1) I don't understand why it is surprising that cars without air bags flunk crash tests. We all know that air bags are critical safety devices.
2) Don't blame manufacturers for giving what customers want. Indians don't give a damn for their lives or those of others - safety is the last thing anyone thinks off while choosing a car.
3) Frankly, these tests are meaningless in a society where idiots don't use seat belts, let kids sit in front seats (or even worse, let them stand with their heads out of a sun roof), drive in the wrong lane etc. Even the best equipment will not save lives if you are an idiot.
4) Expecting that cars should save you if you crash at 100 kmph or crash head on at 120 kmph relative velocity is unrealistic. Just think about at what speed you would have been driving if after applying brakes, you still crash at 100 k? While Indian speed limits are nonsensical (50 kph on the Worli Bandra sea link), even the US and UK have limits in the range of 100-110 kph. Driving on even the best roads at more than 110 - 120 is irresponsible, don't expect cars to save you from your own stupidity.
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