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Old 4th February 2014, 10:35   #61
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Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
When I decided to upgrade the first thing I did was to see the crash test videos and accident pics of i20/Jazz/Polo.

Classic example, my uncle said that airbags are waste when he got his i10, I am driving only at max 60km/hr, so why airbags. I emailed him the i10 crash test video. He was disturbed and realized the facts.
Both statements are absolutely correct.

I wanted to see the the videos 'before' I bought my first car - but unfortunately none were available. This is an example of even though the customer wanted to know how reliable the car was in a crash was not able do so (Untill I buy a global model)
Now look at the vehicles I had shortlisted - Swift, Beat, Figo, Polo and Punto. How am I supposed to make a decision? After a lot of consideration, just to safety, I chose the Figo with all the safety features. A lot of people do ask, why pay that 1 Lac extra? And honestly I was willing to pay 1 lac just for Airbags and ABS, whereas in reality Airbags hardly cost 50 USD each (as per NDTV). In effect I am paying a premium for safety, which I should not have been, had GOI mandated for structural safety, Airbags and ABS as the minimum requirement for a car.

As for the videos, I have shown it to a lot of people and only the very few are disturbed by it. They still think, I wont be in a situation like that, talk about confidence in one's luck!

I hope more people see those crash tests and get disturbed by it. I am; and there is no way in the world a car comes to my home which does not have good safety standards.

Safety is non-negotiable.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Hasn't this been beaten to death already?

I am 100% safer in my Alto than on my bike. I am protected from the elements. I have a few creature comforts. I will not fall down on the road under any circumstance.

For the moment, this is sufficient for me. I am a sane driver. I will not buy the Alto with all the safety features, if it sells at double the price. Because I can't. And then I will have to travel by auto, and what safety features has that one got?
You are 'safer' in your Alto than a bike and that is entirely true.

What is also true is that you would think a hundred times before taking that bike on a highway and drive fast (with your family), but you would be more inclined to do that on your Alto and not drive it like a bike. And that poses problems. People take Nano to hills and I have seen them hitting speeds in excess of 80 easily. How safe is that?

Reality is that the Indian market is so price conscious that we, the common people are being shortchanged. The airbags cost 50 USD each (as per NDTV) but just to sell more products and not add the 6-10k the manufacturers don't add them and we lose out. Remember Airbags don't cost a fortune, like they are made to look like in India.

However structural integrity is something that is a different matter altogether.

Last edited by aah78 : 4th February 2014 at 19:44. Reason: Posts merged.
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Old 4th February 2014, 12:16   #62
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Safety is non-negotiable.

I dont want to get caught in semantics, but safety is negotiated or at least each and every one of us choses consciously or unconsciously what level of safety you find acceptable.

In Europe for many years, the Various Volvo's on the market were considered by many the safest cars around. Still, not everybody bought a Volvo. They were pretty boring, safe, but not very attractive.

It will be interesting to see how India will set out these safety tests. And be aware, even then, that usually only defines the absolute bear minimum for a car to be legally allowed to drive on the road. For instance if you take the NCAP system. Even if a car would get no stars it could still be perfectly road legal.

Car safety is probably a bigger thing in Western countries. People are more aware of it, more familiar with the rating systems etc. Took decades to get to that stage. When I learned to drive, 1977, seat belts had only just been made mandatory, no speed limits on the motorways and we had never heard of airbags, or crumple zones. With the introduction of all these safety measures, car fatalities has certainly come down.

Does India have the capabilities / fascilities to conduct their own testing or are they going to rely on manufacturing data and or third parties?

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Old 4th February 2014, 12:29   #63
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
It will be interesting to see how India will set out these safety tests. And be aware, even then, that usually only defines the absolute bear minimum for a car to be legally allowed to drive on the road. For instance if you take the NCAP system. Even if a car would get no stars it could still be perfectly road legal.
True, but atleast it can bring in more awareness, and published results can act as a deterrent compared to the current state (no tests, and hence no results). And it can create a better impact if the govt. insist on getting these ratings on the manufacturer website (similar to how ARAI FE figures are prominently displayed).


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Originally Posted by Jeroen
Does India have the capabilities / fascilities to conduct their own testing or are they going to rely on manufacturing data and or third parties?
India probably can follow the route followed by other regions, similar to how Latin NCAP or ASEAN NCAP works.
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Old 4th February 2014, 13:27   #64
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

I hope the crash test norms are implemented with some planning. As far as I know, NCAP does not take ABS of a car into account. That is, brakes are never in picture during these tests.

If GoI implements crash test norms, we will see all cars coming with airbags. To cut costs, manufacturers may offer ABS only in the top end models. So it won't change anything. Like today, safety concious people will still have to buy costliest variants with all gizmos and gadgets we may not need!
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Old 4th February 2014, 14:14   #65
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I dont want to get caught in semantics, but safety is negotiated or at least each and every one of us choses consciously or unconsciously what level of safety you find acceptable.
When I say safety is non-negotiable - it essentially means you have a statistically good enough chance to walk out of a crash alive.

You may have the safest car in the world and a truck may run over you and you will be extremely lucky to walk out alive. However in cases of a head on crash with a car or other object, you 'should' walk out alive and well (in a car which has good safety standards)

Hope I made my words a bit more clear.
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Old 4th February 2014, 14:24   #66
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When I say safety is non-negotiable - it essentially means you have a statistically good enough chance to walk out of a crash alive.

You may have the safest car in the world and a truck may run over you and you will be extremely lucky to walk out alive. However in cases of a head on crash with a car or other object, you 'should' walk out alive and well (in a car which has good safety standards)

Hope I made my words a bit more clear.

Sure, what Im saying is that each of us makes their own judgement on what that statistically good enough chance is. If anything most of us are likely to have budget constraints. A Mercedes E-class is safer then most mid sized cars. Few of us can afford a Mercedes E class, so we take our chances in less safe cars.

I have several classic cars from the early '80s. Very unsafe compared to just about any modern car. Still I enjoy driving them. I want ABS/ESP, and airbags on my company car, but when I get home I ll get on my 1975 Royal Enfield Bullet and bum around Delhi traffic. So its all relative and safety isnt as absolute as we sometimes like to think or assume

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Old 4th February 2014, 15:21   #67
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Post re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Does India have the capabilities / fascilities to conduct their own testing or are they going to rely on manufacturing data and or third parties?

Jeroen
Hello,

I may be wrong here but from what I read, I suppose Tata Motors is the only manufacturer (or one of the very, very few) who have a crash test facility and crash test their own cars.
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Old 4th February 2014, 16:36   #68
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Still airbags. ABS helps save me from the consequences of my own speeding - and I can correct for that by driving slower. There is ample evidence that people push harder in cars with ABS. Airbags save me from the consequences of other idiots actions as well. Of course, let's start by ensuring that everyone in our cars wear seat belts - every time. That is clearly the most basic safety precaution.
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Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
These two serve a different purpose don't they? ABS is a safety feature pre-crash while airbags are post-crash and both supplement each other.
My point is that ABS can save somebody else's life.

You are the pedestrian, car hurtling towards you, ABS gives the driver more control and the possibility of steering around you rather than hitting you.

Hayek, airbags will only save you, not the person, or vehicle, that you stand no chance of missing without ABS. On the other hand, I hear you, and agree that ABS is widely misunderstood as something that means one can drive faster and brake later. In other words, get ABS and be a worse driver. This is one of the many problems that are rooted in driver training/testing/licensing, not to mention basic human attitudes. I don't have any answers.
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Old 4th February 2014, 19:34   #69
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

There is nothing as too much safety, the more safer, better its is. We cannot debate if ABS or Airbags are better. Both will help. I have felt the power of ABS not once, but twice and will never want to be in that situation again.

When we leave home for a long vacation, dont we lock the doors first with keys and then use a lock and and finally chain the gates and run to our neighbours to ask to keep a watch? As simple as that. Welcome any amount of safety features, but will I be able to pay the premium the manufacturers ask or go a segment higher is the question.
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Old 15th July 2014, 05:31   #70
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Crash test a must for Indian Cars

Source Link:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/38392217.cms

Quote:
NEW DELHI: It may soon be mandatory for auto companies to install air bags and anti-lock braking systems, besides ensuring that vehicles undergo a crash test before plying on Indian roads.

The government has begun consultations with the auto industry to introduce these safety features in a bid to reduce fatalities in road accidents. While the auto industry has been avoiding these features, arguing that cost will rise, the government is unwilling to compromise this time, given that the same manufacturers include these critical components when exporting to Europe and Latin America.

Officials said other basic safety aspects being discussed with automakers include provision of child restraint and electronic stability control (ESC) that helps drivers avoid crashes by reducing the danger of skidding, or losing control as a result of over-speeding.

Similarly, vehicles will have to undergo frontal crash test at 56 kmph. Currently, car companies claim that vehicles have gone through the test, although government agencies do not have the facility in India. While enhancing vehicular safety will push prices by nearly 25%, the government wants to ensure that vehicles meet minimum safety standards, for which a 2017 deadline is being discussed, said an official privy to the deliberations. Facilities for frontal crash tests in Pune and Manesar (near Gurgaon) are expected to be in place by December.

A senior road transport ministry official said the government will come out with the New Car Assessment Programme (NCAP) norms over the next few months, as a result of which all vehicles will have to pass the minimum standards. "We will give the manufacturers enough time for transition to ensure that there is complete compliance," he said.

Once the mandatory safety features are in place, the government, along with the auto companies, will introduce star ratings that will help buyers make a more informed choice, said officials. Indian manufacturers already comply with the "star rating" norms, while exporting their products to European and other countries, but they don't follow this here since there is no regulation.

Sources said while the star ratings will be in the range of 1-5, the standards would be set considering the domestic conditions. TOI has learnt that the focus of star ratings will be structural safety and to make them safer for occupants, government agencies have held a few rounds of meetings with the vehicle makers in the recent months.

In the US, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has a five-star safety ratings program to provide consumers with information about the crash protection and rollover safety of new vehicles. More stars mean safer cars.

Each year, NHTSA tests a sample of new vehicles predicted to have high sales volume or vehicles that have been structurally redesigned. Tested vehicles are directly purchased from dealers across the country.
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Old 15th July 2014, 06:16   #71
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Thumbs up re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

I just read the news - this is excellent for the Indian buyer. I think finally the Govt will take a firm stand given this point -
While the auto industry has been avoiding these features, arguing that cost will rise, the government is unwilling to compromise this time, given that the same manufacturers include these critical components when exporting to Europe and Latin America.

Let us hope for the same 'sheet metal thickness' - a sticking point for many of us.
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Old 15th July 2014, 11:02   #72
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Warning: Rant!

I think it's high time the government steps down from it's double standards. If they want to see manufacturers improve safety system, they need to stop this ridiculous pre-independence "car is a luxury" style horrendous taxing system. Car is no longer a luxury. It is almost a necessity if not a non ignorable need.

While I have also been blaming manufacturers long enough for treating us like second class citizen, the truth is that the government is the one facilitating this second class treatment. Cars are already as close to 2 times costlier in India than in developed nation. This in a country were raw material and labour is available at a much cheaper rate than in developed countries. It makes you wonder where is it going wrong?

Manufacturers at the end of the day need to sell vehicles and almost every single manufacturers have jumped at the availability of lower tax for under 4 meter vehicles. India is solely responsible for the global creation of sub 4 meter muv/suv. And to cut costs and still make it affordable, they have been making built to cost cars like the etios, all marutis(swift excluded), Sunny etc. which is a danger for it's occupants.

Manufacturers will give you a good product if you stop taxing it so much that the product becomes twice as costly solely by the way of taxes! If they manufacturers were to actually make quality cars with the present taxation structure, all the current models would be close to 3-4 times as costly as their developed country counterparts. Then they will sell 0 cars in the country or maybe the super rich will end up buying swifts and altos.

This appeasement of local industry should be stopped. If the local manufacturers are not able to step up their standards and give world class products even with the exemptions that they get, I don't think they deserve to survive. Tata being such an example. Despite having so many years of experience and so many resources available to them and despite so many exemptions compared to importers, they still make half baked pieces of clay compared to what an imported brand with those taxes on them is able to give.

In short. It is not more regulation we need. We don't need a separate Indian NCAP. Lower the damn central and state taxes and get the manufacturers to stick to existing EURO NCAP standards and you see what kind of products will end up in the market

Last edited by Cyrus_the_virus : 15th July 2014 at 11:07.
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Old 15th July 2014, 11:43   #73
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

Guys.
Hold your horses. I think its a positive step toward better road worthiness of Indian cars.
I would love to see the numbers first. I think top end or lower end variants of all manufacturers share the same structural features and only differ on features like ABS, EBD and airbags. So any variant's crash rating would give us a good idea.Since we are dissecting an Alto here, I would say buyers buying an Alto are very much aware of its road worthiness as compared to lets say a Polo(which costs thrice as much).

I think banning lower grade models will not be a good idea. It should be left for buyer's discretion. Indian auto industry is at a critical phase and as we all know its a very price sensitive market.
Too much restrictions around it would make these models out of reach. Remember the guy who is upgrading from a two wheeler to even a Nano already has quadrupled his chances of survival from a road mishap.
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Old 15th July 2014, 11:48   #74
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

While I agree on some of your points, I disagree on a few:

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Originally Posted by Cyrus_the_virus View Post
Car is no longer a luxury. It is almost a necessity if not a non ignorable need.
Agreed. Governments (state and central) think that public transport is very good. In reality, public transport is not safe (for women, especially) and definitely not secure (you could lose your wallet or your phone, no matter how careful you are). Public transport still doesn't come with CCTV cameras to capture wrongdoers.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus_the_virus View Post
Cars are already as close to 2 times costlier in India than in developed nation. This in a country were raw material and labour is available at a much cheaper rate than in developed countries. It makes you wonder where is it going wrong?
Not in the budget segments. Just compare the prices of such European cars as i20, Polo (especially, GT TSI) or Punto. Agreed that we get substandard engine options, but the price is either same or even lesser than in Europe.


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Originally Posted by Cyrus_the_virus View Post
Manufacturers at the end of the day need to sell vehicles and almost every single manufacturers have jumped at the availability of lower tax for under 4 meter vehicles. India is solely responsible for the global creation of sub 4 meter muv/suv. And to cut costs and still make it affordable, they have been making built to cost cars like the etios, all marutis(swift excluded), Sunny etc. which is a danger for it's occupants.
While government's idea is right (of promoting smaller cars compared to larger ones, to reduce carbon emissions and probably reduce traffic congestion), the execution has gone horribly wrong. A better criterion would have been to tax vehicles based on ARAI certified fuel efficiency, plus size.


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Originally Posted by Cyrus_the_virus View Post
In short. It is not more regulation we need. We don't need a separate Indian NCAP. Lower the damn central and state taxes and get the manufacturers to stick to existing EURO NCAP standards and you see what kind of products will end up in the market
I think Indian NCAP is required to prevent manufacturers from changing the European design. Note that the cars to be tested will be bought directly from dealers. Without NCAP, there won't be tests, so manufacturers need not worry about test results.


In the end, the government takes one step at a time to improve Indian driving scene. Let's hope the next steps logically follow this step.

Last edited by rohanjf : 15th July 2014 at 11:50.
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Old 15th July 2014, 11:56   #75
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Default re: Indian Government plans complete crash test of all cars

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Originally Posted by JoseVijay View Post
Crash test a must for Indian Cars

Source Link:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/38392217.cms
Fantastic news. Kind of something that makes your day or week. I hope the GoI remains firm and adamant on its stand this time and auto manufacturers are forced to put the airbags and ABS in all models they intend to sell in India.

They made the same hue & cry when MPFI systems were being introduced in India on the pretext of conforming all cars to Euro-II emission standards. Later, the MPFI did not turn out to be resulting in exorbitant pricing of cars. Not more than a few thousands. I am sure that mass incorporation and production of ABS & airbag units will bring their prices much lower than now and the resultant price increase will not be too much.

It is high time that we, Indians drive cars that are safe and benchmarked to global standards in safety and quality.
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