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Old 3rd February 2014, 13:49   #136
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
To use your smoking analogy - don't educate people or taxgarettes more because its the smoker's fault/risk. Doesn't he/she know what's best for him/her? Similarly, in an ideal world, consumers of cars should make the wise decision and manufacturers should only make and sell safe cars. Raises the broader question that if everything were to work so well, why do we need a government to enforce rules and regulations at all?

Don't worry, the cars meet local regulations...what are those by the way? Seat belts?
I am not saying regulations are a bad thing. I am wary of regulations being the solution to every problem. Warning people about smoking in movie halls and then posting warning while a character in the movie smokes is not an effective solution. This would mean that we think that our consumers are stupid enough to be influenced by people in movies.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 13:53   #137
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Post Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Very true! In the NDTV video, they did demonstrate this aspect as well – with a China manufactured sedan. The passenger cabin was completely deformed.
I haven't seen the videos (and I will) but I have seen 2 snaps of Toyota Etios being completely mangled in the accidents pictures thread. Terribly scary and I wonder those who are blindly buying into Q Class are aware of the vehicle's lack of structural security. My guess was that the airbags were totally useless in those cars, even if they sported one. Hence my earlier comment.

I think we need a thorough and comprehensive crash tests of all passenger (and commercial?) 4 wheeler vehicles in India. Will be a revelation.

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Crashing into something that can move & deform (thus dissipating considerable energy) will be very different than crashing into something that can't move or deform (like a concrete block/pillar).
Absolutely. Very valid.

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
True. In that 800 or Nano, it will probably suffocate you to death, if somehow you had managed to survive the steering being violently shoved into your chest & head.
A terrible death.

Last edited by k_ajay : 3rd February 2014 at 13:58. Reason: Adding a response to asr245's post.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 14:34   #138
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

A colleague's comments, when I suggested him to buy Dzire ZXi with airbags, instead of VXi model -- "If the airbags explode, the cost of replacement of each airbag is ~50K... so it is very high maintenance for single use" ...

another friend was claiming that his car has a switch to deactivate the passenger side airbag (don't know how true is that, but I am curious now to see his car), and he keeps that in off position always.. otherwise, the same concerns as above ..
and he wants a same switch for driver side airbag also..

Now, what can you suggest to such morons..
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Old 3rd February 2014, 14:40   #139
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Structural design and rigidity has a great deal in impact safety and of course seat-belts and airbags add in a lot more to it. But that's not everything to praise/blame for. Impact bio-mechanics and crash safety is highly dependent on interior structures; this includes any metal/plastic parts that cause potential danger when sheared. Same reason why ABS plastic is not allowed on dash board, softer plastics are used there. Even the hardness of headlining matters. I've worked on headliners myself, improving shore hardness by manufacturing process improvement so that direct impact of sheared roof metal sheets is reduced during crash.
Point is crash safety depends on innumerable factors, even materials used and manufacturing process parameters. Having a safe structure or great build quality or airbags would improve chances of safety but a piece of broken plastic hit on vital spots could be fatal. See the comments area of euroncap tests where they mention the potentially dangerous structures/parts.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 14:45   #140
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

NDTV's Car & Bike showed the tests pretty well specially in the end where they showed a Chinese car that deformed totally even with airbags. While the Nano & Alto 800 are built to a cost the most worrying result was of the Hyundai i10. I am sure the car's exported from India fare much better as far as structural rigidity is concerned putting a question mark on what Hyundai has changed for the Indian i10. We can see the A pillar getting bent in the i10 which doesn't happen in the Figo & Polo.

Few car's that are sold in South East Asian countries apart from India should also be tested. I would like to see how the Honda City & Toyota Innova & Toyota Fortuner perform.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 14:49   #141
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

IMO the poor state safety standards in India is more because of the State (Government & Taxation). A car which costs roughly Rs.10 Lacs in US (converted value) costs Rs.20 Lacs in India. All because of absurd Taxation policy of the Government.

Mind you, before blaming the companies for not setting up manufacturing in India & importing components from abroad, I feel they are justified in doing so because, it makes sense for them to save money on the Taxes saved (not paid in India) & get the product at almost same cost in another developing country.

For this reason the landed cost of any car to buyers (who are left with lesser disposable income, because of high taxes) is already high to spend on costly safety equipment. Afterall for most Indians personal vehicle is more a source of prestige, rather than necessity, & for the same reason, the bigger/ poser is it, the better it is.

Now this becomes a vicious circle, where companies are forced to remove unwanted features from vehicles, & safety features become the target as these are least bought one.

Government too has contributed in another manner, by not mandating adequate safety features &/ or upgrading the laws set up by British in the last century, on timely basis. Even lawmakers take pride in travelling in unsafe vehicle in name of tradition/ prestige in the eyes of poor voters.

I am sure this is wake up call for Government, but fear no action may be taken in this regard, as General Elections are on the anvil & by that time public will surely forget the safety issues in best sellers.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 14:51   #142
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by nishantbhatia84 View Post
I'm quite surprised at the results for the Figo! I've been involved in a massive 6-car pile up with my mom's Figo Zxi (no airbags) and had crashed into the vehicle in front at around 60kph with a Swift crashing into me from behind at the same speed. My car suffered considerable damage however was nowhere as much as the one in the video. The engine was undamaged.
There may be a difference, in real world situations, between the perceived speed of the vehicle, and the precise speed at the time of impact. In the real world, a driver would instinctively brake which may reduce the speed from 60 kph to, say, 40 kph at the precise moment of impact. That would significantly change the severity of the crash.

In the tested scenario, the speed at the precise moment of impact is 64 kph

Last edited by vipul_singh : 3rd February 2014 at 15:04.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 15:48   #143
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by mnrvokk View Post
It is appalling to hear all these calls for the Govt to mandate what safety features to include on all cars as a minimum.
..

Granted the Govt can and should enforce basic standardized crash tests like the ones in other countries and force the manufacturers to display this information while selling these automobiles.
You almost contradict yourself, don't you?

Here are my views:
1. The GOI should make crash testing mandatory
2. These videos should be readily available - Perhaps even made mandatory to be shown to the prospective customer
3. Every car should have a safety rating, no excuses - The customer should know what it is buying

Having watched the CNB Special on this, I am shocked to see the results. The Nano, Alto and i10 (surprisingly, I had thought of it otherwise) were smashed to bits. It was scary to say the least.

The Figo & Polo did considerably better, with the Polo clearly ahead. I appreciate VW for announcing that Airbags will be made standard across Polo. Hope others who are serious about safety will follow suit.

Also, I want to add, I tried searching in vain for such tests 'before' I bought my car (the Figo 1.4 T) which was purely based on feedback and it being designed on the European platform (some level of belief there). I just hope people know what they are getting into. This test has shattered my belief that 99% of the work is done by the seat-belt and hence 'Airbags' are simply an add on.

I know know - the build quality and Airbags are paramount in the car. On the other hand, I hope people here check out the NCAP website and see other vehicles being crash tested. These results are priceless and will help a lot of Indians.

I do agree with your point that it is the customer's responsibility in the end but we are a strange nation - we always need to be 'instructed' on what is good for us. Hope these tests pave way for automobile safety.

Last edited by pratyush6 : 3rd February 2014 at 15:50.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 15:53   #144
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

I think it is the government's responsibility to make airbags and ABS mandatory in all vehicles. In developed countries the governments have made laws to ensure that the safety features are not compromised.
Having said above, to make these safety features effective, people should also have the awareness about these features. For example, if you don't wear seat belt, even the multiple air bags/curtains cannot save you.
Safety is everybody's responsibility.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 16:12   #145
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by mittal_v2002 View Post
another friend was claiming that his car has a switch to deactivate the passenger side airbag (don't know how true is that, but I am curious now to see his car), and he keeps that in off position always.. otherwise, the same concerns as above ..
and he wants a same switch for driver side airbag also..

Now, what can you suggest to such morons..
Several cars are equipped with passenger airbag de-activation facility. If you are a solo driver, there is no reason for you to keep the passenger airbag ready for deployment. In few of the cars, passenger airbag activates only when the passenger seat is occupied and the person is using the seat belt, in case the seat belt is not on, the bag gets deactivated.

The manufactures simply provides "and gate circuit" to ensure that the passenger air bag functions with occupied & belted passenger while the driver side is always on.

I own punto emotion; the passenger airbag can be deactivated, though I get a warning light in yellow on dash for the same so that whenever I have a passenger on the front seat, I activate the same before moving.

Cheers

Last edited by GTO : 12th February 2014 at 12:29. Reason: Passenger is spelt as Pessenger for more than 5 times. How did you manage to do that? :)
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Old 3rd February 2014, 16:17   #146
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Polo in the VW India sponsored crash test had air bags and alloy wheels while the one procured by NCAP for the first test didn't have. Isn't the car in second test supposed to be just the base variant + just air bags. Anyway it doesn't make any difference I think as structural elements are the same.

What's going to happen after this. Nothing is going to change. Aam janta in tier 2/3 India who are not aware of this NCAP will still keep buying these cars. We should note a point that traction is picking up, although slowly - state run bus drivers using indicators, some cab drivers wearing seat belts, truck drivers following lane discipline. Things are changing and are moving in the right direction.

Good to see Latin specific A-Star doing well, would be interesting to see how India-spec would fare.

Hyundai was the first in India to market their NCAP star ratings for i20 I think.

Last edited by BusyBoyKK : 3rd February 2014 at 16:43. Reason: A-Star
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Old 3rd February 2014, 16:39   #147
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by BusyBoyKK View Post
Polo in the VW India sponsored crash test had air bags and alloy wheels while the one procured by NCAP for the first test didn't have.
Hyundai was the first in India to market their NCAP star ratings for i20.

VW deciding to have airbags standard on all their variants were based on the NCAP results. Structurally both cars are the same with and w/o airbags.

Hyundai's i10 for Europe is exported from India, while the Indian i10 fails the test( structurally), this brings the point the Indian version is structurally modified as cost reduction efforts.
We are not sure how the Indian variant of i20 fare on NCAP test.
Cheers!

Last edited by volkman10 : 3rd February 2014 at 16:51.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 16:40   #148
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by isiv View Post
Not entirely sure the govt. is to be blamed here....
Lets take my own example here....

Due to affordability reasons, someone like me would have had to put off the car buying decision by another year or two - thereby exposing myself to greater danger on a two wheeler.

..
Totally agree with you there... but what is the quarantee that the manufacturer is passing on the cost advantage to customers? Forget Airbags+ABS, structural integrity is very basic safety need, it's unbelievable that manufacture would compromise on that.. and still claim 5* NCAP rating (Hyundai). Being a Hyundai i10 owner myself, I feel cheated that my car was not built the same way as an UK i10 is.. i always thought the premium Hyundai cars command was due to quality (not just interior looks). At least, Hyundai should have made a clear statement about the different quality standards and the intended customer base when they claim 5*NCAP for i20 in Indian dealerships. So, this is clearly a subversion on Hyundai's part. Indian ad agency watch dogs should take notice.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 16:45   #149
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
VW deciding to have airbags standard on all their variants were based on the NCAP results. Structurally both cars are the same with and w/o airbags.

Hyundai's i10 for Europe is exported from India, while the Indian i10 fails the test( structurally), this brings the point the Indian version is structurally modified as cost reduction efforts.
We are not sure how the Indian variant of i20 fare on NCAP test?

Cheers!
all cars manufactured for India would definitely fail the basic tests, because manufacturers are not under any obligation to provide safety features. Once this is mandated, I am sure we will lot safer roads as compared to the bad reputation in terms of world roads accident data we have at present.
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Old 3rd February 2014, 17:41   #150
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Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

One important question/observation:

In the video of Polo with 2 airbags, does the driver side dummy's head rebound and hit the B-Pillar?

It seems to have been edited out to hide it.
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