Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st February 2014, 09:27   #76
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mumbai
Posts: 2,004
Thanked: 2,025 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (4)
Default

I believe this kind of testing is blatantly silly and hypocritical. What sense is there in crashing a car, only head-on, with a hard object at 64kmph? Did you check what happens in a sideways crash? What happens in a roll over, what if the bonnet slides under a truck. What happens at 30kmph, what happens at 80/100kmph? What happens if there is a rear end hit? Shouldn't survivability check for all these common accident types? Why fool the buying public into thinking the Polo is a safe car, only because its two airbags saved the dummies (somewhat) when hitting head on to a wall at 64kmph?

And what is this nonsense of only 2 airbags? What about rear passengers? or do they not count? What happens in case the rear pax are not strapped down? Does the car have a seat-belt warning for all 4 seats atleast?
Any car having an ABS/EBD will steer away from an object at a paltry 64kmph, try speaking of the crash at a more realistic 100kmph where the driver does not have the time to steer away.
Have they checked for pedestrian survivability? Have they considered that the pedestrian, might actually be thrown up by the sloping bonnet of a hatchback and land on the windshield? Have any such simulation testing been done at all?

Sorry for me, this seems like a well thought of and sponsored move by VV to ensure that now they sell the safest hatch in India, improved with 2 airbags :P

Adding to this story of crash testing, I am sharing a recent incident. My Safari had a minor accident at the toll booth, where in due to the operator negligence the toll booth barrier (the heavy metal rod) came crashing down on my car's right A pillar, after I had paid the toll and was moving at about 20kmph.
What is good to know is apart from a minor (almost unseen) dent on the A pillar, the Safari suffered no damage. Where in the toll booth rod, the connecting arm and the booth window all suffered extensive damage, with the rod being broken and cast away to the right the arm bent beyond use and the toll booth window shattered by the arm fragments The operator was in tears, because it was purely his fault, and I forced them to pay me 2k rupees to remove the dent, the only question the supervisor had was 'what do I do with the pole?' my answer came out spontaneously, please use it for pole dancing if you want!!!
All these crash testing aside, I want to know how many car's in India can claim this kind of safety when the A pillar gets hit? I believe most will buckle down straight away. And to think of it, the Safari may not be crash tested at all!!!

Last edited by moralfibre : 1st February 2014 at 16:57. Reason: Back to back posts. Please use EDIT/MULTI-QUOTE within 30 minutes of posting.
apachelongbow is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 10:10   #77
Senior - BHPian
 
wilful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cochin
Posts: 1,120
Thanked: 862 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

I just want to make a point on the sheet metal/weight of Indian cars vs the same model in Europe. The assumption is that our cars are lighter and their European counterparts are heavier and hence safer (to a greater degree).
A cursory check (random sampling) on specs of a couple of cars later I am not convinced that India specific cars are made lighter (maybe some variants but not across the board).

Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel Europe - 1105 to 1222 (3 door)
- 1115 to 1232 (5 door)

Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel India - 1222

Chevrolet Beat Europe (Known as Spark in UK) - 864 (kerb)
Chevrolet Beat India - 965 (kerb)

I got the Indian figures from Team-Bhp new car reviews and the Euro figures from the auto companies' websites.

Last edited by wilful : 1st February 2014 at 10:18.
wilful is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 10:45   #78
Distinguished - BHPian
 
saket77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 3,192
Thanked: 4,251 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT View Post
If fiat had tested the punto, it would have been a really good ad for Fiat. For me it's the safest hatch under 10 lakhs.
According to EuroNcap, the International Punto scores 4 stars. The International Swift and many other hatchbacks including the Polo scores full 5 Stars. Hence, they have fared better than the Punto in safety. I am using the the term 'International' as we still don't have the clarity that by how much the manufacturers skim their cars before selling in India.

Last edited by saket77 : 1st February 2014 at 10:47.
saket77 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:01   #79
BHPian
 
ahmad.007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lucknow
Posts: 216
Thanked: 66 Times
Default

We do not consider one more fact, heavier car, more momentum, more force needed to break that momentum, more damage inflicted. Heavier is not always good. Its light and strong materials like Aluminium that should help.
ahmad.007 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:03   #80
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Nasik
Posts: 105
Thanked: 4 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
According to EuroNcap, the International Punto scores 4 stars. The International Swift and many other hatchbacks including the Polo scores full 5 Stars. Hence, they have fared better than the Punto in safety. I am using the the term 'International' as we still don't have the clarity that by how much the manufacturers skim their cars before selling in India.
Makes sense to buy cars when they are newly launched whichare imported in "CKD" condition.
Once the manufacturing starts the higher gauges has impact.
The old 2008 Fabia weighs 100 kg less than the newly launched Rapid/Vento.
YVES is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:14   #81
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Banagalore
Posts: 122
Thanked: 19 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

within the same variants are cars with Boot safer than hatchback siblings due to higher laden weight.
Swift vs Swift Dzire or Polo vs Vento
Fabiaous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:18   #82
BHPian
 
H_Dogg72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 371
Thanked: 289 Times
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by fighterace View Post
.

As for the manufacturers adding safety features, it's a waste of resources. How many people buckle up outside the metros? And how many of us "petrolheads" do so when sitting in the rear? And when was the last time you adjusted the head restraint?

I rest my case.

I do all of those things,My family does not move anywhere without buckling up ,the driver has strict instructions to not start the car if everyone (REAR !) isn't buckled up.
As for headrests ,I adjust them for everyone .It should be a little lower than the head.
Buckling up should be done anywhere,rear or front doesn't matter!.
I had once an argument with the service guy who had put the buckles inside the seat,I bashed that guy and didn't get it serviced from there .



I do believe that even if we have airbags standard, people will still not wear seatbelts (or have kids in laps) and will get killed because of the force of deployment (Dzire,Driver seatbelt=Both airbags deploy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabiaous View Post
within the same variants are cars with Boot safer than hatchback siblings due to higher laden weight.
Swift vs Swift Dzire or Polo vs Vento
Sorry for not multiquoting, Cannot find my post.

Well ,the boot acts as a good crumple zone, so rear ends are "generally " better.
Just see the vento ownership threads ,once a vento was rear ended, the boot crumpled, but the windshield (rear) did not shatter.Impact absorbsion is better.

Last edited by moralfibre : 1st February 2014 at 16:57. Reason: Back to back posts.
H_Dogg72 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:26   #83
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 92
Thanked: 80 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I believe this kind of testing is blatantly silly and hypocritical. What sense is there in crashing a car, only head-on, with a hard object at 64kmph? Did you check what happens in a sideways crash? What happens in a roll over, what if the bonnet slides under a truck. What happens at 30kmph, what happens at 80/100kmph? What happens if there is a rear end hit? Shouldn't survivability check for all these common accident types? Why fool the buying public into thinking the Polo is a safe car, only because its two airbags saved the dummies (somewhat) when hitting head on to a wall at 64kmph?

And what is this nonsense of only 2 airbags? What about rear passengers? or do they not count? What happens in case the rear pax are not strapped down? Does the car have a seat-belt warning for all 4 seats atleast?
Any car having an ABS/EBD will steer away from an object at a paltry 64kmph, try speaking of the crash at a more realistic 100kmph where the driver does not have the time to steer away.
Have they checked for pedestrian survivability? Have they considered that the pedestrian, might actually be thrown up by the sloping bonnet of a hatchback and land on the windshield? Have any such simulation testing been done at all?

Sorry for me, this seems like a well thought of and sponsored move by VV to ensure that now they sell the safest hatch in India, improved with 2 airbags :P
I would have to disagree with you here.
If you look at the NCAP safety system then you will understand how the test works.
Airbags are a must for the cars but they check there are other factors as well (like rigidity of the frame, crumple zones etc. ) which make a vehicle safe or unsafe.
Indian cars did not fare better in any of these as well.
pedestrian safety is out of question as they have not fared well in the initial tests.
They follow standard testing procedures for all vehicles and have not made any difference to brands from India.
praveen_n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:38   #84
Distinguished - BHPian
 
saket77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 3,192
Thanked: 4,251 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower View Post
Not enough blaming either the govt or the manufacturers. Like most have pointed out already, its us, the buyers who seem least concerned about our own safety. Its we who need to change.
At the onset, let me please clarify that I am not pin pointing you at all with this quote. Just sharing another thoughtful insight over the matter.

Why not blame the Govt.? Why not the manufacturers? Why only the people?
Let me put my point across. The 'kitna deti hai' attitude is the most common jargon used to define people value money more than their life- according to some people. Not done. There are people who simply cannot afford the safety equipment which is mostly available in the top-end variants. Tell me why a manufacturer could not offer ABS+Airbags as an option with the base variants? Why? Why, despite fall in crude prices for about a month now, we don't see any reduction in petrol prices? Why the Govt. adds taxes unnecessarily and inflates fuel prices and then advertises around that they are making losses in selling fuel to public, when these losses are not actually losses?

How come this 'kitna deti hai' attitude came into Indians? I bet it has to, when we are paying 73 bucks a litre to travel 12-13 Kms. It is among the highest in the world. And India is predominantly not a country of rich. Most people lie in the middle class and have average incomes. For majority of our population, owning a car is a luxury; and driving it on super expensive fuel is super-luxury. Add bad roads, poor traffic control, and poor infrastructure, which further increases fuel consumption. The CNG, which was once promoted as a cheap fuel and an alternative is not selling at par with Diesel. What about those who got expensive CNG kits fitted in their cars on assurance that the Govt. backed it?

So, why not will this 'kitna deti hai' thing come into us?
And remember, for most of the Indians, getting promoted from a bike to even a Nano or basic Alto is exponentially safer.

Why don't you think it like this- making safety features mandatory will result in mass production of these items and hence will bring the prices down. This will NOT result in as high increase of the car prices as we are expecting. And once, a proper Indian safety testing standard is in place, and cars clearly rated, people will automatically choose the safest car they can afford. As of now, there is a lot of ambiguity on this matter, even to most of the people on this forum (hence not layman), leave alone the outside world. Pity those even more who bought a car based on a 5 star rating thinking they are safe in this car by paying a few extra lakhs; only to get a 'compromised' Indian version of a car that was safe elsewhere in world with added safety features, not in India.
saket77 is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 11:42   #85
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: noida
Posts: 1,049
Thanked: 297 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The only way to get back at these irresponsible manufacturers is to DEFAME them. Here's what I'd propose. Simplest for the Government to carry these steps out overnight. Good news is, the expected (new) Government at the Center might just be more keen on increasing safety standards than the current.

- Just like Bharat-Stage emission norms were introduced, make an announcement overnight that all new cars to be sold in India will be crash-tested. If the manufacturers whine, let them whine (similar to how BS emissions were handled).

- Crash-testing according to globally accepted standards (either that of Europe or the USA).

- Safety rating out of 5 stars.

- Circulate ratings with the press. Everyone will be only too happy to share the news, whether good or bad.

- Make it mandatory that every car on sale has to have its safety rating displayed clearly (on the windscreen with a certain font size etc.).

The average car owner in India (unfortunately) prioritizes price & fuel-economy over safety. Problem is, he's also ignorant about safety standards or requirements. Manufacturers are only too happy to cash in on this situation.

The single entity which can force manufacturers to pull their socks up is the GOVERNMENT.

P.S. These Global NCAP dudes should have taken along a Mahindra Bolero or Tata Sumo in these tests, especially one fitted with a mega after-market bullbar! That would have left them speechless. Significant body injury? Check. Possibility of death to driver / passengers? Very high. Pedestrian safety? Zero. Damage to vehicle? Absolutely, unbelievably & shockingly None
I agree with GTO totally. If AC's, Geysers and Refrigerators need to mandatorily have a BEE energy efficiency rating, there is no reason why vehicles should not carry a safety rating sticker on the wind shield. It is due to our weak norms that global manufacturers like Toyota, Ford, Renault,GM and Indian manufacturers continue to sell unsafe products in India even though the same models exported by them meet these norms.

It is not just in terms of small cars. Even bigger and relatively more expensive cars like the Innova and the Safari Storme offer safety kit like airbags only in the higher/ top variants. It is due to articles like these that some manufacturers are upgrading their cars Eg VW with Polo and Mahindra has done well to make a start with Air Bags and ABS as standard on all variants of the XUV 500

I
rajneeesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 12:25   #86
BHPian
 
prakash_ajp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 494
Thanked: 719 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Another perspective I would like you all to look at is, majority of the fatal accidents in India involve pedestrians. I doubt having a vehicle that handles better would have helped in most cases. I strongly feel that as a country, the people and the system, we are just not ready to use motor vehicles in the right way. We all know how easy it's to get a driver's license, right. Most of us believe that driving is all about knowing how to use the wheel, clutch, gear etc. Hardly people start with learning traffic rules. Probably because we all, for reason, don't take pride in going by the rules.

While I agree that the safety standard must be improved, the people should be educated first. There's no point in blaming the manufacturers for this. If the country and it's consumers care about safety and standards, I don't think the manufacturers would think twice about providing them. We as a country should do our best to make the manufacturers compete on these terms rather than just price.
prakash_ajp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 12:27   #87
Senior - BHPian
 
silverado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Mumbai-Pune
Posts: 1,012
Thanked: 636 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

If this is the truth, and if government starts making such tests mandate, Maruti will bleed big time.

These offset tests depict a scenario such as a failed overtake and headon crash, which occurs often.

For people who think Airbags are costly and unnecessary, they can buy them thinking of it as a Life insurance policy of a kind, but its high time they were given across all the trim ranges, and not only top end, and as a separate entity.

In fact I would suggest Life insurance companies start selling air bags as their products.
silverado is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 12:37   #88
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 168
Thanked: 158 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Sorry for me, this seems like a well thought of and sponsored move by VV to ensure that now they sell the safest hatch in India, improved with 2 airbags :P
And the timing is highly suspect too; a week before Polo launch with air-bags. Anyways, the study is a welcome move in the right direction. The focus, though, should have been in comparing i20, Swift, Dzire and Amaze against Polo.

It does not make any sense in testing Polo against Nano, given the fact that Nano costs one third of Polo and is in a different segment altogether.
rdhawan15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 13:38   #89
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Delhi,Allahabad
Posts: 293
Thanked: 213 Times
Default Re: Popular Indian Small Cars Fail Safety Tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by torque!! View Post
A Tata Nano on the expressway is always a hazard, not just for the people in it but also for others on the expressway. This is irrespective of how crash-worthy the Nano is. I have seen too many Nanos driving on the rightmost last and other cars trying to overtake them by doing silly maneuvers endangering their life and the life of others around them.
I don't agree with you on that count, my friend. What you have said applies to morons who can drive anything from a Nano to a BMW or a RR for that matter. A car being driven on the wrong side is disaster for all others on the right side, crash worthiness tests are for accidental impacts, not moronic ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
Even if Indian Polo is stripped of some of the safety features, it's body shell still conforms to global safety standards.
I am sure Punto is also safe enough.

Figo may have been designed with developing countries in mind, but it is still based on a platform that was designed for Europe. So, no wonder it clears some safety tests.

When you come to cars developed purely for developing countries (read: countries with no NCAP tests), you can always count on manufacturers sacrificing safety reducing costs and increasing fuel efficiency.
There are three morals of this story I can make out here:

1. The European / American cars featured better than their Indian rivals here as they were tested against specs they WERE designed for. The Maruti 800, Nano and the i10 were designed for the present Indian laws, frontal impact at 48 kmph, while they were tested at 56 and 64 kmph.

2. The almighty epitome of German Engg, VW's Polo, failed the test, conducted in home country, therefore no bias issues as well. What it means is, we Indians will lap up anything Phoren, just because it is "supposed" to be better, safer, etc, etc. The truth is before you.

The Figo JUST managed to scrape pass the pass mark, akin to Pappu pass ho gaya and having a Cadbury's. It's similar performance to the POLO speaks of similar manufacturing processes and standards.

3. Yes, ALL cars must be made conformant to basic safety norms. It is the Indian specialist agencies and the Govt, who have to spell out the norms, which will depend on the driving conditions in our country. Just aping the UN or EURO NCAP norms (akin to the pollution Norms, which are equally applicable) will not work here. How about conducting these tests at 48 kmph, (an all other parameters of the spec) for which they were designed for ? (The EURO standards prescribe airbags for ALL cars, small or big, BTW)

Who needs a crash proof car if you can skid off the road because of a poor turn design and switch off from the world ? What about the traffic mentality (as quoted above) ? How about adhering to a simple norm like not using high beams all the time ?

EURO norms test crash worthiness in a frontal impact. What about getting hit from the side ? (Very much possible in Indian road conditions) How about a rear impact (The Noida expressway types)? How about being flipped two times over ?

A sensitive aftermath - What if such a car saves your life, that you have to endure later as a vegetable or minus vital pats of your body ? Can any norm protect you in entirety ? The answer is an emphatic NO.

The Tavera flouted pollution norms like nothing else, yet they have "recalled" vehicles for an "upgrade" maybe ? The standards only aim in defining a safer transport box, that's all. In our country, one can get away with murder as implementation of laws is lax.
lifebuoy is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2014, 13:48   #90
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 409
Thanked: 109 Times
Default Re: Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test

Around 8 months back I cam across a gentleman working in Ford Chennai as quality Engineer. During discussion, I came to know that he was looking for a car for his uncle, and he was very clear that Figo will not be one, as he mentioned the difference between Export and the local figo, in terms of number of crossbars reduced, thickness cross bars, the weight of chassis used in the Indian version. It is very clear that while the outer layer and the interior skin remains same, internally it is completely a different vehicle. Having driven Swift in Canada and owned one in India, I can clearly see that under the skin, they are built very differently.

So this made me to look at VW vehicles, as atleast I read somewhere that VW India head mentioned that what they design for Europe is what they manufacture in India, no short cuts. Hence their costing is expansive. However not sure how true is this.

Last edited by manjubp : 1st February 2014 at 13:51.
manjubp is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Record-breaking safety rating for Volvo V40 in the Euro NCAP. EDIT: Now the XC60 too volkman10 The International Automotive Scene 12 9th November 2017 11:51
Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too... rajess_in The Indian Car Scene 644 10th June 2017 10:52
ASEAN NCAP Test Results - 5* for Prius & Vento, 4* for Swift, Sunny, Ciaz, Ertiga & Amaze RSR The Indian Car Scene 38 8th December 2016 14:05
Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP GTO The Indian Car Scene 159 15th April 2016 10:40


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 02:38.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks