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Old 14th February 2014, 23:14   #46
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
For lazy people who don't like to change gears, it's a boon. But, for driving enthusiasts, manual gearbox makes the day.
So if you have an auto box you are lazy and definitely not a driving enthusiast?
That's a bit rich don't you think?

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Old 15th February 2014, 06:41   #47
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

I think the buzz is so high because it’s Suzuki who is bringing in the technology to India and that too in an entry level car. Some years back, it was big news in Malaysia when Proton decided on AMT for one of their entry level cars (Savvy). The craze did not stay on, and they continued with conventional ATs in rest of their line-up. I don’t know if this is to stay, but has every chance of making AT more mainstream in the Indian market.
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Old 15th February 2014, 08:55   #48
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
Same thing happened when i went for the test drive of celerio. The SA pointed out that the celerio doesn't have a clutch for atleast 15 times in the short span i spent with their TD car. I was like "Oh ya, big deal" but my uncle who accompanied me was amused with it. One TD, and i vouched never to settle for an AMT.

The points you highlighted are indeed the pros of AMTs, but in my opinion, for driving enthusiasts (or atleast me for that matter), stick shifters are the best. Nothing gives a feel of manually shifting gears. Though AMTs do provide a manual mode, the absence of clutch makes it boring. For lazy people who don't like to change gears, it's a boon. But, for driving enthusiasts, manual gearbox makes the day.

If i ever buy a celerio (why would i? There's a swift zxi at home ), i would get the zxi version rather than the vxi amt. Hope many here in this forum will accept my views.
I do not agree with you at various levels.
I do not understand why everyone keeps saying "feel of a manual mode" ?
All auto boxes will provide you a 100% feel of a manual mode as most of them have triptronic versions. You could have driven the amt in a manual mode sans pressing the clutch and gotten your "feel".
You would get whatever gear ratios you wanted and fuel efficiency according to your need. Any car with triptronic would do that. I have driven manuals most of my 20 years of driving and have changed to auto boxes since the last 2 years.
Believe me I am never going back.
I totally agree with my delhi friend that modern automatics are quite superior in handling and fuel efficiency. and that most drivers cannot match a computer in deciding the gear ratios.
You can prove yourself that on your next text drive. When you drive in a manual mode to extract maximum fuel efficiency you will upshift early and downshift late. Many times you do that you are putting undue strain on your engine just to extract more fuel efficiency or merely being lazy to change the gear in crowded traffic. Honestly tell me how many times do we avoid shifting a gear in crowded traffic just feeling that we ll pull through.
Now compare that with an automatic which knows the limits of the engine and downshits at the right time. Most people do not know how to drive an automatic and derive maximum fuel efficiency from it. Most automatics can be used to change gears by using the accelerator which has to be learned. Suddenly you will see a 25 % rise in fuel efficiency in the automatic.The autogear senses whenever you reduce pressure on the accelerator that a gearshift should be done provided the engine can pull it. You can clearly see that happening through the instant fuel efficiency and the rpm meter. Once you start doing that you will realize what a futile exercise the manual was.

Even if you are a hardcore enthusiast you can always use your automatic like a manual with the triptronic in proper conditions. But you will agree with me that when the traffic is stop start even the biggest enthusiast will love the autogear.
so why not have both options.
Having 2 automatics in my stable and learning slowly how to derive maximum mileage out of them I can vouch that you will get very similar mileage with a manual that with the automatic within the engine limits and driving with a light foot when required.
I have tried to overdo the computer by trying manual modes and compare the fuel efficiency and failed on many accounts on different cars.Maybe some people can outsmart it but for majority automatic works better.
The reason maruti is trying to sell this technology is because people have a fixed mindset in India that automatic = very bad fuel efficiency and if you can get that fixed it should sell.
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Old 15th February 2014, 10:49   #49
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Red face Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
So if you have an auto box you are lazy and definitely not a driving enthusiast?
That's a bit rich don't you think?

Jeroen
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny1974 View Post
I do not agree with you at various levels.
I do not understand why everyone keeps saying "feel of a manual mode" ?
All auto boxes will provide you a 100% feel of a manual mode as most of them have triptronic versions. You could have driven the amt in a manual mode sans pressing the clutch and gotten your "feel".
You would get whatever gear ratios you wanted and fuel efficiency according to your need. Any car with triptronic would do that. I have driven manuals most of my 20 years of driving and have changed to auto boxes since the last 2 years.
Believe me I am never going back.
Sorry if i've offended you guys. Let's put it this way, i like manual transmission more than automatics and i shouldn't have said that automatics are for lazy people. I apologize for that. Please don't send brickbats my way . And, i respect your views on automatics. Probably, i may start to like automatics more than manual some years later. Frankly put, now, i like manuals just because of the presence of clutch! It kinda feels good IMO.

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Old 15th February 2014, 12:06   #50
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
Same thing happened when i went for the test drive of celerio. The SA pointed out that the celerio doesn't have a clutch for atleast 15 times in the short span i spent with their TD car. I was like "Oh ya, big deal" but my uncle who accompanied me was amused with it. One TD, and i vouched never to settle for an AMT.

The points you highlighted are indeed the pros of AMTs, but in my opinion, for driving enthusiasts (or atleast me for that matter), stick shifters are the best. Nothing gives a feel of manually shifting gears. Though AMTs do provide a manual mode, the absence of clutch makes it boring. For lazy people who don't like to change gears, it's a boon. But, for driving enthusiasts, manual gearbox makes the day.
While I respect your views, I do not think absence of a clutch dilutes the enthusiast driving experience in any way. If that was the case, then formula 1 drivers cannot be 'enthusiast' drivers. .

Lack of a full manual mode in AT may not appeal to driving enthusiasts, but the Celerio offers that. Although it is probably not targeted towards a driving enthusiast, I am pretty sure in manual mode, the AMT itself can shift faster than an average enthusiast. And AT's like DSG's can shift 100's of times faster than most experts.

The other point is, we talk about enthusiast driving, but considering our traffic and the road conditions, opportunities for an enjoyable drive are minimal. Most of the driving done will be in a normal mode in the crowded cities and highways of our country.
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Old 15th February 2014, 12:08   #51
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Hi all,
I wanted to share a the little knowledge i have about the AMT and Magneti Marelli (MM). (Apologize if it is a repetition).

MM is an Italian parts manufacturer and a 100% FIAT subsidiary. It has been in India since many years now. It also had a somewhat typically FIAT like unfortunate first time entry to Indian market.
Current MM has a corporate office in Gurgaon and around 8 joint ventures across India with other parts manufacturers. They make ECUs, Instrument cluster, Lights, Struts, Shock absorber and much more.
One such joint venture is with SMC (Suzuki Motor Corporation) and MSIL. They provide all the diesel ECUs to MSIL, TATA and FIAT and Gasoline to VW India and Europe, South Africa.

AMT is their baby. It has been around since long. They have sold over 30 lakh units else where. Manufacturing that in Best cost countries have further declined the cost of an already cheaper automated transmission.

It is a kit rather than a transmission and can be applied to existing MT. It has a TCU (Transmission Control Unit). The kit interacts mechanically with the MT. It is powered by actuators Hydraulically. These are governed by the TCU which is in sync with the ECU. (Reason of sourcing AMTs and ECUs from the same company, maybe why VWs had such transmissions since a couple of years now in Europe).

Currently, these are sourced from China and TCUs from Bari (Italy). Soon will be manufactured here in Manesar, Haryana.

TATA was to be the first to introduced but as delays are second nature for TATAs, they missed it and MSIL launched it first. Many more cars are going to be equipped with these.
FIAT was planning to introduce it too but i believe did not work out with so less volume. They are hardly able to sell a 1000 numbers a month.
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Old 15th February 2014, 12:17   #52
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Can an AMT kit be fitted to a car with manual shift from the manufacturer?for eg AMT for a swift petrol?
Asking this question as what i have understood is it is essentially just a kit which has to fitted to the normal gear box (in layman's terms).
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Old 15th February 2014, 12:41   #53
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
For lazy people who don't like to change gears, it's a boon. But, for driving enthusiasts, manual gearbox makes the day.
For people who live in over crowded cities where cars don't move they only creep, slowly, AT's are a boon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
Sorry if i've offended you guys. Let's put it this way, i like manual transmission more than automatics and i shouldn't have said that automatics are for lazy people. I apologize for that.
Glad you're keeping your views open. Just try a good AT with tiptronic.
I love taking my civic on the twisties in paddle shift mode. Much more fun than I ever had with a manual shift.
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Old 15th February 2014, 14:27   #54
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by rosaf View Post
Can an AMT kit be fitted to a car with manual shift from the manufacturer?for eg AMT for a swift petrol?
Asking this question as what i have understood is it is essentially just a kit which has to fitted to the normal gear box (in layman's terms).
Yes, it is infact what is being done here. Celerio has a manual transmission and Maruti sources AMT from MM as a kit and assembles it on top of the MT.
But to fit over any manual transmission it needs to be configured and tweaked, for the placement of the kit and configuration of the TCU. Not available as after market kit though. Might be in future, who knows.
Transmission is basically same for AMT and Non AMT versions. Difference is of the kit.
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Old 15th February 2014, 14:43   #55
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Smile Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by gomzi View Post
For people who live in over crowded cities where cars don't move they only creep, slowly, AT's are a boon!
Those are times i rather think i should've had an AT! and, i don't hate ATs completely. I actually love paddle shifters. But, apart from paddle shifters, i like manual transmission more than other types of ATs. One place where i love ATs(CVTs), is in scooters. They are so much fun! and thanks for accepting my apologies.
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Old 15th February 2014, 17:40   #56
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

A query

I recently drove an automatic with pedal shift, so the question that popped up in my head is how is AMT technology different than pedal shift? Pedal shift does not require clutch and you are shifting the gears manually only (similar to AMT). Although i have seen pedal shifts only in fully automatic vehicles.

Wondering if a small mod job can be done to make a celerio/zest with pedal shifts
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Old 15th February 2014, 22:02   #57
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by kaushik51094 View Post
Let's put it this way, i like manual transmission more than automatics and i shouldn't have said that automatics are for lazy people. I apologize for that. Please don't send brickbats my way . And, i respect your views on automatics. Probably, i may start to like automatics more than manual some years later. Frankly put, now, i like manuals just because of the presence of clutch! It kinda feels good IMO.
Kaushik, I fully agree with views expressed by Sunny and Jeroen. But I also understand your predicament. I was in the same boat myself. 3 years ago I bought A-Star AT very nervously. Not sure how I would like this car. First week did not go well. I even regretted why I bought this car. No particular reason but may be we dislike and fear change because it brings unknown. But trust me, one month later I was a total AT convert. Now when I have to drive my F-I-L's Alto, I curse and swear why every car doesn't have AT. My city is so bad. I think Delhi is the only city in India with long straights. So, a Delhiite longing for MT is understandable. I don't think other Indian cities (crowded and chaotic) merit an MT unless it is driven only on highways. just my opinion.

Last edited by pgsagar : 15th February 2014 at 22:03.
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Old 15th February 2014, 22:38   #58
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by car-o-phile View Post
But to fit over any manual transmission it needs to be configured and tweaked, for the placement of the kit and configuration of the TCU.
Transmission is basically same for AMT and Non AMT versions. Difference is of the kit.
So do you mean to say that the AMT fitted to a 4 gear MT car would function like a 4 speed AT & that on a 6 gear MT would be 6 speed AT ?
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Old 15th February 2014, 22:39   #59
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Kaushik, I fully agree with views expressed by Sunny and Jeroen. But I also understand your predicament. I was in the same boat myself. 3 years ago I bought A-Star AT very nervously. Not sure how I would like this car. First week did not go well. I even regretted why I bought this car. No particular reason but may be we dislike and fear change because it brings unknown. But trust me, one month later I was a total AT convert. Now when I have to drive my F-I-L's Alto, I curse and swear why every car doesn't have AT. My city is so bad. I think Delhi is the only city in India with long straights. So, a Delhiite longing for MT is understandable. I don't think other Indian cities (crowded and chaotic) merit an MT unless it is driven only on highways. just my opinion.
Good to hear this. Probably if i ever buy an AT sometime, i'll not look back at MT again. But till then, for me, MTs will be the best. Even i don't like driving my uncle's alto much. I don't know whether it's due to it's low power or clutch or the small car feel. I've been pampered by swift's smooth clutch which has made me love manual transmission and yes, driving a manual in crowded conditions is pretty tiresome. but, i've got used to it. I'm from coimbatore (TN) where good roads are hard to find. But, feeling happy, some new roads are being laid almost everyday.
I've only driven the celerio's AMT till now (yes, no other automatics) and it felt too weird for me. Maybe it'll take sometime for me to get used to automatics.
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Old 16th February 2014, 00:22   #60
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by kaks15 View Post
A query

I recently drove an automatic with pedal shift, so the question that popped up in my head is how is AMT technology different than pedal shift? Pedal shift does not require clutch and you are shifting the gears manually only (similar to AMT). Although i have seen pedal shifts only in fully automatic vehicles.

Wondering if a small mod job can be done to make a celerio/zest with pedal shifts
I will put it this way.
These are the transmissions that there are:
Manual Transmission (MT) - Which you know very well.
Automatic Transmission (AT) - It can be of different types under the skin (DSG, CVT .....), but it will have no clutch an option of Automatic shifting (D) and manually shifting (through gear lever or Pedal shifts).
AMT is Automated Manual Transmission - As the name suggests its a manual transmission that has been automated. It is a MT under the skin and an AT over the skin. In future they might bring pedal shifters too. Not a big deal.


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Originally Posted by rxpaul View Post
So do you mean to say that the AMT fitted to a 4 gear MT car would function like a 4 speed AT & that on a 6 gear MT would be 6 speed AT ?
Exactly rxpaul. It will have as many gears as the MT it is being connected with.
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