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Old 22nd February 2014, 22:32   #106
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Actually the deeper question is why F1 uses this system instead of any other.
FIA Regulations.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A side question would be how the F1 system differs from the plebian AMTs.
Specs laid down by FIA such as (a) first gear should be capable of 80 km/h (b) each gear should not weigh more than 600 gms (c) over rev protection must not have a delay more than .05 seconds etc.

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Does anyone know the shift times achieved with a sequential shifter on drag cars?
Similar to F1 times.

Last edited by VeyronSuperSprt : 22nd February 2014 at 22:48.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 00:55   #107
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
What is the system used in F1 cars? What is the shift time like?

Regards
Sutripta
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post



Thanks.
Actually the deeper question is why F1 uses this system instead of any other.
A side question would be how the F1 system differs from the plebian AMTs.

Does anyone know the shift times achieved with a sequential shifter on drag cars?

Regards
Sutripta
Like someone already answered ,the reason why F1 still uses it and would continue in the future is as I mentioned , the weight savings,size and the complexity(lack of it) and the relative cost !
And about the drag cars , the really fastest ones in the world like the 5 seconds quarter mile ones use a torque converter ( in some cases just a single speed)(no shifts )
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-fuel-dragster

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I don't think you can call a modern auto box slow to respond and inefficient. Maybe American ones, but not the European and Japanese ones. Please check the link I provided in my earlier post. Slow to respond and inefficient are largely a thing of the past and if you take your Joe average driver the difference becomes smaller, in fact the autobox might actually have the advantage. Two identical cars, one manual and one auto, the first one is likely to be of the line quicker, but in most cases as soon as the manual car needs to shift the auto will start gaining.

Now the one thing that is probably true is that on smaller cars, i.e. Less power, the manual might have the advantage, but the more power the more likely the auto box has the edge.

We need to face the fact that 99.9% of drivers are simply incapable of outperforming some very simple automated stuff, let alone some of the more advanced stuff.

In my experience, having lived in the USA, Americans are lazy drivers compared to European or Indian. I don't mean that in a put down or negative way. But they they have a different environment in which they drive and different expectations on what a car should do. Only a few months ago I was back in the USA for a week or so and I rented a car. It was the newest Buick or GM, i cant tell them apart. Of course, an autobox. Acceleration was absolutely glacier like. You stomp on the "gas", push the pedal to the metal, into the kick down and through the firewall and still nothing happens. If you would take the smallest BMW, with an autobox and you so much think about pushing the accelerator you end up with whiplash. Its just two completely different approaches to what a car and or auto box should be doing.

BTW, curious to know what your involvement in the NA automotive industry is?

Jeroen
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There is no such thing as 'the Americans' anymore.

Chrysler uses the ZF-9speed, Ford uses Getrag DCTs and GM has had a transmission design center & plant in Strasbourg France for a long time. The new Caddy CTS uses an Aisin 8AT
Well forgive my generalization but what I was trying to say is that they are "relatively" slow when compared to the dual clutch. ( the one in the Z06 is left to be seen until there are more "independent reports and not just claims by GM). The reason GM is actually using the conventional auto and not DSG is because of the cylinder deactivation technology in these cars (not because its faster or efficient). The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between shifting speed and transmission response i.e the lag between your foot and the engine response ! Do what you want with the improvements but you cant beat physics ( or rather the lag in torque converter hydraulics) so overall they are going to be "relatively" less efficient and slower compared to the ones with clutch. You are right in the sense the new auto boxes are becoming faster and faster like the absolutely wonderfully smooth 8-speed ZF used in pretty much all luxury cars today but even that doesn't have the instantaneous response of transmissions with clutch
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BTW, curious to know what your involvement in the NA automotive industry is?
Jeroen
I work for a Major tier one supplier in vehicle dynamics/Chassis controls i.e ABS , ESC , Tractional control, E-LSD and the likes.

Last edited by amulu10 : 23rd February 2014 at 01:06.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 07:41   #108
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Overriding reasons for selection / design of any component in F1 has been safety, costs, size, green effect and adaptability to F1. It is not as if the manufacturers have an issue with costs (some may have) but the FIA does not want F1 to be seen as one where substantial amounts are invested by the F1 community for furthering the sport. Current regulations require that the same gearbox be used for 6 consecutive races requiring manufacturers to increase reliability levels.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 19:14   #109
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

F1 does'nt care about cost and I think that much is pretty well known. They do care about performance & reliability and not so much things like shift shock/NVH. Secondly even though its AMT, its nothing like the Celerio. Probably uses straight cut gears with dog engagement and sequential vs H.
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Originally Posted by amulu10 View Post
The reason GM is actually using the conventional auto and not DSG is because of the cylinder deactivation technology in these cars (not because its faster or efficient).
Hmm....does the article say that? VW does cyl deactivation on their Passat Bluemotion ......4--->2 even !!! with a DSG.

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The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between shifting speed and transmission response i.e the lag between your foot and the engine response
Not sure I understand.

Last edited by Mpower : 23rd February 2014 at 19:27.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 21:19   #110
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
FIA Regulations.
Do the regulations specifically prohibit, or mandate, the use of particular types of transmissions in F1?

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Like someone already answered ,the reason why F1 still uses it and would continue in the future is as I mentioned , the weight savings,size and the complexity(lack of it) and the relative cost !
Would be OT for this thread, so in a dedicated thread perhaps, a discussion on the various transmissions available. (esp a matrix with cost (initial and lifecycle), weight, volume, torque handling capacity, ease/ cost of adding ratios, etc) would be enlightening. (After that we can go into things GBs for hybrids)
(One thing I'd really like to know is how Honda's autos stack up in this matrix.)

Quote:
And about the drag cars , the really fastest ones in the world like the 5 seconds quarter mile ones use a torque converter ( in some cases just a single speed)(no shifts )
Was not really talking about the fastest drag cars, but the shift times IF a sequential shifter is used.

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Secondly even though its AMT, its nothing like the Celerio.
And a discussion/ explanation of that would be enlightening. (Links to technical papers esp. for Magnet Marelli's system would be appreciated)

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Not sure I understand.
I think trying to say that actual shift speed is only one parameter of many which determines shift feel as 'felt' by the driver.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 23rd February 2014, 21:34   #111
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Do the regulations specifically prohibit, or mandate, the use of particular types of transmissions in F1?
Automatics and CVT's are specifically prohibited.

On another note, cost reduction is a major concern in F1 and there have been several initiatives just to reduce costs.

Last edited by VeyronSuperSprt : 23rd February 2014 at 21:50.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 21:43   #112
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

^^^
One of the rationales being that the skill of a driver should matter.
But was talking about the different options like conventional layshaft, epicyclics, DSG's etc. (And if all these are allowed, why is the AMT (or rather PSMT - paddle shifted MT) everybodies choice)

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 23rd February 2014, 22:29   #113
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[quote=amulu10;3375925Do what you want with the improvements but you cant beat physics ( or rather the lag in torque converter hydraulics) so overall they are going to be "relatively" less efficient and slower compared to the ones with clutch. You are right in the sense the new auto boxes are becoming faster and faster like the absolutely wonderfully smooth 8-speed ZF used in pretty much all luxury cars today but even that doesn't have the instantaneous response of transmissions with clutch

I work for a Major tier one supplier in vehicle dynamics/Chassis controls i.e ABS , ESC , Tractional control, E-LSD and the likes.[/QUOTE]


You can't beat physics, but you in real life it is not about physics. Its about machinery against a human being who has to balance left and right foot. Ive done any number of drag races with similar cars, manual versus auto. It always leaves many manual ego's thoroughly busted. Problem is very few so called petrol heads have a realistic understanding of their drivers skill, or rather lack of it. Hence the autobox triumph in reality and on cars forums like this the manual tend to be the favorite.

Interesting place to work. What is it you actually do there. Ive been dying to get some more in depth insight in these sort of systems

Jeroen
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Old 23rd February 2014, 22:33   #114
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

^^^
True. Reasons for choice would include faster shifts, better control on overtaking manouvers, easier incorporation of an external clutch used for control to and from standstill, weight, size etc
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Old 23rd February 2014, 23:10   #115
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

After 8 pages I am still confused as to whats the difference between this and the regular AT boxes. Does this offer only Manual shift mode? Or it also has a fully automatic D mode too?
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Old 23rd February 2014, 23:20   #116
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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After 8 pages I am still confused as to whats the difference between this and the regular AT boxes. Does this offer only Manual shift mode? Or it also has a fully automatic D mode too?
As far as I have understood,

There are 3 drive modes (R, N & D)

D-Mode will shift gears automatically by the RPM but if want to keep the gears longer then you can move the lever to M-mode that has a '+' and a '-' sign that will hold the gear till upshifting by the driver.

Check the video posted on Page 2.

Hope I have understood the AMT correctly. Else correct me if I am wrong.

Anurag.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 23:31   #117
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
As far as I have understood,

There are 3 drive modes (R, N & D)

D-Mode will shift gears automatically by the RPM but if want to keep the gears longer then you can move the lever to M-mode that has a '+' and a '-' sign that will hold the gear till upshifting by the driver.

Check the video posted on Page 2.

Hope I have understood the AMT correctly. Else correct me if I am wrong.

Anurag.
But then how is it different from a regular AT box? Even my BMW ( the only AT experience I have had) has the same feature. So whats new in this AMT?
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Old 23rd February 2014, 23:40   #118
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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But then how is it different from a regular AT box? Even my BMW ( the only AT experience I have had) has the same feature. So whats new in this AMT?
It is still an MT underneath but the shifting is elctro-hydraulic actuator that does the gear shifting without the need of the clutch pedal but the car has a clutch and need to keep pressing it which is easier to drive. And the regular AT boxes have a torque converter that eat away a bit of power from the engine loosing on FE and power.

Anurag.
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Old 23rd February 2014, 23:47   #119
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
It is still an MT underneath but the shifting is elctro-hydraulic actuator that does the gear shifting without the need of the clutch pedal but the car has a clutch and need to keep pressing it which is easier to drive. And the regular AT boxes have a torque converter that eat away a bit of power from the engine loosing on FE and power.

Anurag.
So basically the real difference is only technical and not very apparent to the end user other slightly faster gear shifts. Understood now.
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Old 24th February 2014, 09:38   #120
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

51 % of Celerio bookings sofar are of the AMT variant.

The bookings for the AT variant have exceeded the expectations of the company, which was estimating 25-30 per cent of sales of Celerio to come from the AT variant.

More models to follow from the Suzuki's Stable.

Now M&M,Tata Motors, Volkswagen and Hyundai Motor India are looking at introducing products with advanced automatic transmission systems and improve the ease of driving in the volume intensive and highly competitive mid-range segment



http://www.financialexpress.com/news...-day/1228710/2
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