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Old 24th February 2014, 14:43   #121
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

AMT gearbox has been loved by car buyers in India and seems like the near future will see new cars getting launched in both transmission options, manual and AMT, along with automatic in some cases.

Tata Motors announces AMT across all cars, starting with Bolt, Zest and Nano.

Magneti Marelli will be the supplier of the AMT gearbox.


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Old 24th February 2014, 21:21   #122
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
You can't beat physics, but you in real life it is not about physics.
....
Ive done any number of drag races with similar cars, manual versus auto. It always leaves many manual ego's thoroughly busted. Problem is very few so called petrol heads have a realistic understanding of their drivers skill, or rather lack of it. Hence the autobox triumph in reality and on cars forums like this the manual tend to be the favorite.
Neat party trick. I'd say human psychology rather than physics.

Everyone 'knows' that a manual is faster than an automatic. And constantly reinforced by performance figures put out by auto magazines, and manufacturers. Add to that ego, as you have pointed out.

What is not mentioned by the performance figures is how brutal one has to be with the manual to get those figures. I am yet to meet a non professional owner driver who would treat his car that way. Add to that one has to practise one starts over and over again to know what works and what does not for that particular model, and to get it right when it counts. (A normal driver is not going to get it right the first time he tries to launch a car in anger.)
In an auto the only skill you need is an ability to bury the accelerator pedal deep in the pile carpeting. And it will click off its acceleration times consistently, and without drama.

But one day you'll meet a driver who knows all this, and is driving his (soon to be ex) friends manual car, and you're going to have your *** handed to you!

(I must add I'm not talking about our piddly 1.2L econoboxes, built to a cost, and tuned for economy. My personal experience says that in that case the manual will win without much effort.)

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 24th February 2014, 22:10   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post



What is not mentioned by the performance figures is how brutal one has to be with the manual to get those figures. I am yet to meet a non professional owner driver who would treat his car that way.



But one day you'll meet a driver who knows all this, and is driving his (soon to be ex) friends manual car, and you're going to have your *** handed to you!



(I must add I'm not talking about our piddly 1.2L econoboxes, built to a cost, and tuned for economy. My personal experience says that in that case the manual will win without much effort.)



Regards

Sutripta

I said it before, the smaller the engine the more likely the manual is to get the advantage. Mind you, not sure how many ego's are going to get boosted by the fact that you can out accelerate the car with the auto box and the 1.0 l engine.

On more powerful engines the manual procedure is as follows: rev up to 4-5000RPM and then dump the clutch. Yes, thats right, just in one fluent motion take your left foot off the clutch. The ego's might be big, but usually not at the expense of the car. Thats why I will take on just about any young turk in a Beemer or Audi who thinks he can out drag my Jag with their manual. Big blow to the ego when the old git with the autobox wins! Love it!

Jeroen
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Old 25th February 2014, 00:54   #124
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
It was the newest Buick or GM, i cant tell them apart. Of course, an autobox. Acceleration was absolutely glacier like. You stomp on the "gas", push the pedal to the metal, into the kick down and through the firewall and still nothing happens. If you would take the smallest BMW, with an autobox and you so much think about pushing the accelerator you end up with whiplash. Its just two completely different approaches to what a car and or auto box should be doing.
The Buick/GM would be on a Torque Converter based automatic, whilst the Beemer on a Dual-clutch DSG.

For the DSG's I would agree with you, of them ending up being faster more often than not, than their manual counterparts. But the manuals are a means of essential "self expression".

Coming to even a conventional torque converter AT, I had, in a previous life owned a 3.2 liter in-line 6-cyl "old" Merc with an auto-tranny, that had an unblemished record of bruising ego's of 3.5 liter manual Mustangs. The launch technique + ASR took care of retaining the three-pointed star drivers ego!
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Old 25th February 2014, 01:12   #125
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Hmm....does the article say that? VW does cyl deactivation on their Passat Bluemotion ......4--->2 even !!! with a DSG.
The article doesnt say that. This is something I got to know with GM being one of our customers. Sure you can do cylinder deactivation with DSG but apparently the torque converter is the best in terms of NVH. Just think about it ? The torque converter would dampen the vibrations that arise due to sudden deactivation of a few cylinders. DSG would probably end up with a lot of reliability complaints especially at the torque produced by a Z06 engine
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Not sure I understand.
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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
I think trying to say that actual shift speed is only one parameter of many which determines shift feel as 'felt' by the driver.
Sutripta
This is kind of what I meant. What I meant was while the gears themselves might shift quick , the response i.e lag between you pressing the gas pedal and the vehicle actually moving forward is quite different from a automatic and a manual "clutch based"( includes manual as well as DSG and AMT). It takes a little longer to get the same torque transfer with torque converter as opposed to a clutch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
You can't beat physics, but you in real life it is not about physics. Its about machinery against a human being who has to balance left and right foot. Ive done any number of drag races with similar cars, manual versus auto. It always leaves many manual ego's thoroughly busted. Problem is very few so called petrol heads have a realistic understanding of their drivers skill, or rather lack of it. Hence the autobox triumph in reality and on cars forums like this the manual tend to be the favorite.
Interesting place to work. What is it you actually do there. Ive been dying to get some more in depth insight in these sort of systems
Jeroen
Again I get what you mean but I am not talking about light to light drag races here. Sure the auto is going to be faster but which one ? For the same engine/car , an DSG(provided its not too much heavier than a AMT) will be the fastest out there.
The physics part I am talking about is when you look at efficiency & throttle response and this is from personal experience at work testing cars and grassroots Motorsport racing. Try to drive a conventional auto , Automated manual and a manual in autocross event , you get what I mean about the "LAG"

Last edited by amulu10 : 25th February 2014 at 01:14.
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Old 25th February 2014, 01:19   #126
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by amulu10 View Post
T
This is kind of what I meant. What I meant was while the gears themselves might shift quick , the response i.e lag between you pressing the gas pedal and the vehicle actually moving forward is quite different from a automatic and a manual "clutch based"( includes manual as well as DSG and AMT). It takes a little longer to get the same torque transfer with torque converter as opposed to a clutch.

Again I get what you mean but I am not talking about light to light drag races here. Sure the auto is going to be faster but which one ? For the same engine/car , an DSG(provided its not too much heavier than a AMT) will be the fastest out there.
The physics part I am talking about is when you look at efficiency & throttle response and this is from personal experience at work testing cars and grassroots Motorsport racing. Try to drive a conventional auto , Automated manual and a manual in autocross event , you get what I mean about the "LAG"
Just because you think your going fast because you re busy witht the clutch and the throttle and the stick, doesnt necessarily mean you're actually going faster.
Just feels that way. Once you're off the line and rolling it becomes a whole different matter.

Glad to hear you drive autocrosses. Where and when and what was your start number. Lets check the results for the manuals and the auto's!

Jeroen
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Old 25th February 2014, 01:20   #127
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Neat party trick. I'd say human psychology rather than physics.

Everyone 'knows' that a manual is faster than an automatic. And constantly reinforced by performance figures put out by auto magazines, and manufacturers. Add to that ego, as you have pointed out.
True, very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
What is not mentioned by the performance figures is how brutal one has to be with the manual to get those figures. I am yet to meet a non professional owner driver who would treat his car that way. Add to that one has to practise one starts over and over again to know what works and what does not for that particular model, and to get it right when it counts. (A normal driver is not going to get it right the first time he tries to launch a car in anger.)
This is as true as written in Gold. I worked for a magazine for some months and the way the acceleration figures were achieved in manual cars made my eyes open more than a black hole. ITS BRUTAL. The launch, the quick gear shifts, the rev it to the limits in each gear. If I did these kind of acceleration runs in my car even 3 to 4 times, I would have already damaged some parts of the clutch and gearbox for sure. ITS Maniacal and in real life scenarios, impossible to achieve by a normal person who loves his car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
In an auto the only skill you need is an ability to bury the accelerator pedal deep in the pile carpeting. And it will click off its acceleration times consistently, and without drama.
Or maybe tap the plus minus at the right rpms or lift off the accelerator a bit to facilitate the shift, but that's about it.
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Old 25th February 2014, 03:38   #128
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Just because you think your going fast because you re busy witht the clutch and the throttle and the stick, doesnt necessarily mean you're actually going faster.
Just feels that way. Once you're off the line and rolling it becomes a whole different matter.

Glad to hear you drive autocrosses. Where and when and what was your start number. Lets check the results for the manuals and the auto's!

Jeroen
Did I ever talk about shifting manually ? Please go through my post again. I am talking about the vehicle power train response in manual or automated manuals ! Now where does thinking about going fast or being busy with clutch and stick come here ?
results for autos vs manuals in autocross ? You will be hard pressed for any comparison (in my experience 98% of the cars autocrossed are manuals or automated manuals) .
I am not here to justify which is more fun or the mind thinks is fun. I was just trying to give you the factual answer.
We are going totally out of topic here with arguing which is faster. Lets just be done with it already and carry our personal opinions out of this thread

Last edited by amulu10 : 25th February 2014 at 03:39.
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Old 25th February 2014, 11:30   #129
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

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Did I ever talk about shifting manually ? Please go through my post again. I am talking about the vehicle power train response in manual or automated manuals ! Now where does thinking about going fast or being busy with clutch and stick come here ?
results for autos vs manuals in autocross ? You will be hard pressed for any comparison (in my experience 98% of the cars autocrossed are manuals or automated manuals) .
I am not here to justify which is more fun or the mind thinks is fun. I was just trying to give you the factual answer.
We are going totally out of topic here with arguing which is faster. Lets just be done with it already and carry our personal opinions out of this thread
This whole thread, in fact most of this forum, is made up of opinions rather than facts. Nothing wrong with that. World would be a very boring place if all we had to deal with was facts. This forum would come to an end.
So you dont race yourself, would that be the case?

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 25th February 2014 at 11:34.
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Old 25th February 2014, 11:36   #130
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Rumoured that 80 percent of customers in metros are asking for the Maruti Celerio AMT. Seen as a blessing in the congested city traffic the Celerio AMT is seen as the alterante to the MT.

Now for Maruti, who has not seen this coming, now poses a problem in the
the supply capabilities of its vendors. Maruti did not expect the Celerio automatic variants to be so successful and now, it is seen the waiting periods seem increasing .

Maruti has now reportedly asked its dealers to push the Celerio manual transmission variants more that the Celerio AMT trims.
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Old 25th February 2014, 13:58   #131
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.... Maruti did not expect the Celerio automatic variants to be so successful and now, it is seen the waiting periods seem increasing .

Maruti has now reportedly asked its dealers to push the Celerio manual transmission variants more that the Celerio AMT trims.
Oh, no. Not again. They did it before and they are doing it again. In 2011, when I went to buy A-Star AT, the salesman said AT is for "foreign" countries and for handicapped (in India). That is the knowledge level of our salesmen. Now when demand is more for AT, instead of ramping up AMT production, they are turning them away. BTW, is MM the only supplier of AMT units? If so, then they need to hike their production because there are Tata/Mahindra/Hyundai ready to enter this AMT race.
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Old 25th February 2014, 14:07   #132
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Now when demand is more for AT, instead of ramping up AMT production, they are turning them away. BTW, is MM the only supplier of AMT units?
Here is MS 's chairman's response,

Quote:
This is the first time we have launched AT in this segment. Who would have thought that we would straightaway get 51 per cent bookings for AT models. Now, there will be a waiting period as the automatic transmission parts are being imported. We will import it for the first year and localise it after a year
Now when he says to localise it, have they a JV with MM ? AMT's are available from ZF, BorgWarner, etc.


http://www.ibtimes.co.in/articles/54...riod-price.htm



Cheers!

Last edited by volkman10 : 25th February 2014 at 14:09.
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Old 26th February 2014, 10:00   #133
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

@ amulu10

Can I know your views about Torque converters and Autoboxes used in Trucks and buses. They are only fractionally less effecient as manual boxes handled by good drivers, and usually better than manual boxes handled by our usual frustated drivers who skip shifts. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...z-india-7.html (Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India) The main difference between these boxes and those in cars is that their lock up clutch locks up in start up gear (first or second depending on load) and remains locked up thought till 6th. Weight of vehicle prevents shift shock when ratios change.

I think that if car start using similar boxes with large no of closed ratios, and the converter only for start up, effeciency will improve considerably.
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Old 26th February 2014, 18:23   #134
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Default Re: Automated Manual Transmission (AMT): The new buzz in India

Maruti, Tata and Mahindra will be churning out AMT's in near future. Though it won't be a problem on small naturally aspirated engines, due to use of Turbo, I'm a little skeptical how AMT will work with diesel (and turbo petrol) engined cars.
Also, C segment onwards deserve conventional automatics.
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Old 26th February 2014, 18:30   #135
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I'm a little skeptical how AMT will work with diesel (and turbo petrol) engined cars.
Also, C segment onwards deserve conventional automatics.
We will see it in Tata's Zest Diesel variant.
Maruti is speculated to have both AMT and regular AT variants for the CIAZ.

Cheers!
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