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Old 8th June 2015, 11:38   #1486
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I think one of the major problems with LTT collection is the assumption of the life of the car, ideally the life of a passenger vehicle should not be assumed to be more than 8 years & depreciation should be calcuated accordingly.

Also all states should have an option of a 5 year tax, so that the govt does not lose much but the car owners also get some relief.

However I do agree that the best option is to buy a car here especially if one plans to live in Bangalore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby.thomas View Post
I'm a person who paid LTT voluntarily in Bangalore for my then 7 year old Maruti 800 DX MPFI of the order of 20,000/- and it's almost 1/5th of the resale value of the car.
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Old 8th June 2015, 12:15   #1487
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
...
Below is the comparison between KA and KL taxation as an example and the motivation for people to evade taxes in KA. (KA taxes is approximate % including the cess amount)

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Are you sure on the taxes in KL? Because In social media I regulary see photos of the pathetic roads in a few Kerala towns and cities, with a caption saying that KL has one of the highest road taxes, but the government does not maintain the roads well .

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat View Post
Taxes in Kerala are very much correct.

"To make something look legit, take a photograph, caption it and upload it in the social media" - Leonardo da Vinci

...
The current tax structure in Kerala is as follows.

below 5 lacs = 7% (13% for imported)
5 to 10 lacs = 10% - (18% for imported)
10 to 15 lacs = 12% - (22% for imported)
above 15 lacs = 17% - (33% for imported)

And here is the link: http://www.keralamvd.gov.in/images/m...edule-2014.pdf

With this rate, we are going to see all new imports inlcuding Beemers, Audis and Mercs in Kerala registered outside the state.

Last edited by vasoo : 8th June 2015 at 12:19.
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Old 8th June 2015, 12:25   #1488
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Bhodrolok View Post
I think one of the major problems with LTT collection is the assumption of the life of the car, ideally the life of a passenger vehicle should not be assumed to be more than 8 years & depreciation should be calcuated accordingly.
Please refer this pdf document on how the tax for older vehicles are calculated. I know that this has been posted several times earlier, but I think this thread also deserves this.
As an example, for a vehicle which is 4 or more years and less than or equal to 5 years old, the owner has to pay 75% of the Life time tax which would have been levied, if the vehicle was registered new in KA. So, for a Rs. 4L (when new) car, the original tax amount will be Rs. 57,600 in KA. So, if you want to pay the tax in KA after 4 years, it will still be Rs. 43,200 which is 75% of the original. Now you see the problem.

As an addition to my previous post, I'm giving the calculation of my own purchase of the XUV 500 AWD below.
Invoice value - Rs. 14,47,396
Tax paid in KA - Rs. 2,75,954 (19.06% of invoice value)
Tax, if the vehicle was purchased in KL (my home state) - Rs. 1,73,687 (12% modified as per vasoo's post)
Difference is a whopping Rs. 1,02,266.

Last edited by A350XWB : 8th June 2015 at 12:28.
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Old 8th June 2015, 12:29   #1489
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by roby.thomas
At times, I feel the 'Drive Without Borders' campaign is trying to reach an ideal world, whereas there are better viable options. States do have expense to maintain roads and tax collected is definitely one of the source which aids in that. Giving the whole control back to Centre is also not a good model.
I do keep an eye on on the 'Drive Without Borders' campaign out of curiosity. And I do feel that the campaign is slowly moving away from seeking legal remedies. To all the campaigners, I only have one suggestion. Can they assure that their own respective states, agree to have a centralised vehicle taxation scheme? From the kind of daily news coverage the campaign gets in Malayalam dailies, I guess there are lots of Keralites involved in the campaign. And the funny part is that Kerala government has clearly said that they will not support the planned National Road Transport Safety Bill (which plans for centralised vehicle tax collection). These campaigns are taking a kind of stance of "Us (non-KA vehicle owners) v/s Them (Karnataka Govt. & its RTO)".

Quote:
After paying LTT in KA, the folks seems to be not even bothered about re-registering in KA, though I thought the law required it to be done so.
They will be in for a rude surprise when they try to reclaim their LTT balance, when they plan to shift the vehicle else where. Karnataka RTO rules is that LTT etc. can only be refunded for a vehicle registered in KA. Ideally if they have paid the LTT (voluntarily or as part of the recent drive), it may be worth the hassle to get the vehicle re-registered. I had an old Kinetic Honda, for which I paid the LTT here. Did not bother to re-register, but did not bother to claim the LTT refund when I took back the vehicle after using it for 5-6 years here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB
Difference is a whopping Rs. 1,02,266.
Agreed. And a lakh odd is not very easy money. But KA (and all states) at present have the rights to decide the tax slabs. So at the moment, we cannot really ask KA to reduce the tax slabs, because KL has a lesser rate, and PY has even lesser rates. KA government can clearly take a stance that, then register the vehicles in those states AND use them in those states. KA government may change its tune, if people stop coming to KA (or cities like Bangalore), and the state sees its revenue dwindling - but at present I don't see things going that way.

Last edited by sachinpk : 8th June 2015 at 12:32.
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Old 8th June 2015, 12:53   #1490
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Well, goons stopping cars at whitefield today. Seems like a major drive by the RTO around Whitefield.
Here comes my question. Is it right - legally and morally to employ touts / goons / "commoners" for performing such activities?
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Old 8th June 2015, 13:00   #1491
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by glenmz View Post
Well, goons stopping cars at whitefield today. Seems like a major drive by the RTO around Whitefield.
Here comes my question. Is it right - legally and morally to employ touts / goons / "commoners" for performing such activities?
What makes you think that he is a Goon or a tout.?

He is so well dressed and smart looking guy.I am sending this picture right away to Allen Solly and likes and i am sure that they will hire this ''RTO OFFICER'' in their next Advertisement.

Waseem.....

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 8th June 2015 at 13:29.
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Old 8th June 2015, 13:12   #1492
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by glenmz View Post
Well, goons stopping cars at whitefield today. Seems like a major drive by the RTO around Whitefield.
Here comes my question. Is it right - legally and morally to employ touts / goons / "commoners" for performing such activities?
Isn't that atrocious?? Why should I even bother to stop if a non-uniformed man is trying to stop my vehicle?? Who gave him the rights or what entitled him to stop my vehicle. If I have the correct information, as per rules, even a traffic policeman is not supposed to stop you unless you have broken a traffic rule (not true for RTO officers - they can randomly stop vehicles). This might be far-fetched, but who is answerable if someone runs over this non-uniformed man and later confesses that he had to hit him considering as an act of self defense from a man who was trying to dangerously block his vehicle in the middle of a road. I can always suspect him to be a thief, goon or even a terrorist.
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:01   #1493
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenmz
Well, goons stopping cars at whitefield today. Seems like a major drive by the RTO around Whitefield.
Here comes my question. Is it right - legally and morally to employ touts / goons / "commoners" for performing such activities?
I don't think so, RTO officials can employ locals/commoners to actually do any enforcement drives. But there are provisions for authorities to employ people as "Special Police Constables", but this is generally done during elections etc. Folks mainly ex-military, NCC etc. volunteer for this. This point, I feel can be raised with RTOs (with photographs as evidence). Either they will have to explain on what basis they do this, or prove that they are actually RTO officials in Mufti.

Have a check on Sec. 202B of the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Rules, which gives the power for the RTO for seizing the vehicles and moving them to a place for temporary safe custody. These touts could be labelled as drivers appointed by RTO to drive the vehicles to the police station/place of detention. It would taken as part of making arrangements for ensuring temporary safe custody. During the previous drive (before the stay order was given), a colleague of mine (who was also car pooling) was caught. He tried to weasel out by saying that he has an important customer meeting, and he also had others who were car pooling etc. The RTO told him that no reason to worry. The RTO has a driver who would drive the car, drop all the passengers in the office gate. Customer meetings can go on at the scheduled time. The driver would then take the vehicle to a near by BMTC depot which was the holding point. After all meetings etc., the owner could come back to pay the LTT and take back the vehicle.

Searching for this led to me another important point. The right of RTO (or Police) to enter a place, if they suspect that any person involved in violating the provisions of the law is believed to be staying in that place. Check Sec (5)(b).And if the team is led by a officer having gazetted rank (most likely Inspectors and above), they need not even come with a warrant. So the Housing Society and Associations may get into trouble if they stop RTO squads from entering the premises. In the case where they were pushed back, it could be that a gazetted rank officer was not leading the team.
Appointment of Motor Vehicles Officers and Powers to Stop & Check The Vehicle (Regulatory Measures)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey
Why should I even bother to stop if a non-uniformed man is trying to stop my vehicle?? Who gave him the rights or what entitled him to stop my vehicle.
Perfectly agreed. I think this is one area where people can raise a protest. In fact there have been numerous cases in Bengaluru, where well built men act as police officers in Mufti and trick old women to part away with their gold jewellery etc.

Quote:
If I have the correct information, as per rules, even a traffic policeman is not supposed to stop you unless you have broken a traffic rule (not true for RTO officers - they can randomly stop vehicles).
It depends upon how Sec 119 M.V Act gets interpreted. It talks about the driver's duty to obey traffic signs and which also includes "comply with all directions given to him by any police officer for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic in any public place". The Police SI and party doing the enforcement can say that they were actually regulating the traffic.

Last edited by sachinpk : 8th June 2015 at 14:05.
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:09   #1494
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Perfectly agreed. I think this is one area where people can raise a protest. In fact there have been numerous cases in Bengaluru, where well built men act as police officers in Mufti and trick old women to part away with their gold jewellery etc.
We have videos of Touts stopping vehicles and this was shown to these so called ''High Ranking officials'' and their reaction was very callous.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another story from our forum

If you obey the law of the land you will have more problems than when you intentionally violate the law. Take my case as a living example:- During a visit to Kochi I visited Honda's show room and found a Honda Brio VMT of 2011 model ready for disposal since the new Amaze had taken its place inside the showroom. I negotiated the price and requested them to send it to me to Bengaluru. The car (KL-07-BS-6050) arrived on 20th January 2014 and I started processing the papers to change the registration to Karnataka State and submitted a load of documents. Then finally I was asked to pay Rs.56,683.00 by demand draft and I paid the said amount (DD No;28410 dated 29th January 2014 HDFC Bank) and Computerized Challan No: CJ7035958 dated 30th Jan 2014 was given to me with remarks as "Tax for other State Vehicle" After a long wait I was given a smart card with the changed Reg:No: KA-05-MP-2854. The seller had told me that when I produce all the documents of the changed registration number he will pursue the RTO at Kochi to refund the life time tax paid in Kerala in 2011 when the car was new. The life time tax paid in Kerala was just Rs.26950.00 where as after three years of depreciation Karnataka RTO (Jayanagar) decided to levy Rs.56,683.00 as Life time tax for 12 years. Any way Kochi RTO wrote a letter C13/2318/2014/E dated 30th April 2014 to RTO, Bangalore South to confirm the "genuineness" of change of registration and payment of tax. NOTHING HAPPENED AT RTO, BANGALORE SOUTH and I send along complaint to Transport Commissioner by email on 3rd February 2015. The mail did not bounced back so I am sure it will be in his Inbox. Finally I made few trips to RTO, Jayanagar at the ripe age of 72 (having undergone two bypass heart surgeries, heavily affected varicose veins on my left leg) but again promises were made by an official that the letter will be sent with in a week. AGAIN NOTHING HAPPENED, So I told my wife that if I do not return home by 6.00PM she should approach Channamanakere Police Station with a "man missing" complaint. I was determined to create as much hoopla that is possible by an old man. And I did. I shouted on top of my voice that I must meet the "GOD" who is RTO (South) and if not I am going to break in to his office. Then a kind lady appeared from no where and asked me to clam down and she will get the letter ready and will also give me a copy. I waited for another two hours and while she was about to hand over a photocopy of the letter to me, another lady, who believes she own the traffic dept: ordered not to give the letter. This was the last straw that broke my back(not the camel). I again started making high pitch dialogue drama and then they sent a peon to take a photocopy and give it to me. The RTO (South) take ONE YEAR to acknowledge and issue a "genuineness certificate" that I paid the Life time Tax to Karnataka Government and my new Karnataka Registration number is KA-05-MP-2854. This is what happens to a law abiding citizen for doing the right thing. Now any one wants to bring a vehicle to Karnataka?????

Waseem.....

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 8th June 2015 at 14:12.
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:10   #1495
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Agreed. And a lakh odd is not very easy money. But KA (and all states) at present have the rights to decide the tax slabs. So at the moment, we cannot really ask KA to reduce the tax slabs, because KL has a lesser rate, and PY has even lesser rates.
I was giving an example of the difference in vehicle registration charges in two states. I'm against tax evasion by people who are in KA for long term. And as many people have told, uniform taxation across the country is a distant dream. If KA government can do something for this, it is to allow people to pay 1/2/3/4/5 (whatever it be) yearly tax, for out of state registered vehicles. I don't think dwindling of economy of cities like Bangalore is not going to happen due to issues like this.
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:15   #1496
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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD
We have videos of Touts stopping vehicles and this was shown to these so called ''High Ranking officials'' and their reaction was very callous.
I know you have been working on this issue, but did you (or your team) try approaching the courts? Again it would be a cumbersome process. But if the RTO is using civilans to enforce the taxation laws, it should get stopped. What did the 'High Ranking officials' say? They denied it? Or said that they have some legal provisions to employ civilians for a short period of time?
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Old 8th June 2015, 14:58   #1497
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I do keep an eye on on the 'Drive Without Borders' campaign out of curiosity. And I do feel that the campaign is slowly moving away from seeking legal remedies. To all the campaigners, I only have one suggestion. Can they assure that their own respective states, agree to have a centralised vehicle taxation scheme? From the kind of daily news coverage the campaign gets in Malayalam dailies, I guess there are lots of Keralites involved in the campaign. And the funny part is that Kerala government has clearly said that they will not support the planned National Road Transport Safety Bill (which plans for centralised vehicle tax collection). These campaigns are taking a kind of stance of "Us (non-KA vehicle owners) v/s Them (Karnataka Govt. & its RTO)".
Its not easy for the mere common man or the campaigners of this " Drive without Borders" to make up a common understanding from all the states of our vast country on the issue of uniform road tax. If a powerful constitution and the judiciary of the country cant do it its rather juvenile to expect the citizens to do that.

With respect to the taxes in Kerala, they have recently made a rule that a non-KL car can pay a tax of 1500 or thereabouts if a non-KL car need to ply on their road for a year which I guess is a reasonable amount and has a "fairness" in it.

KA could do that if they want to be fair, but just that they don't care. They have the rule on their side and they could well do whatever they can with it.

None of the campaigners or the idea behind this campaign is to go against a government. Its just a fight for a fair system. That's all it is. There could be a lot of different options that one can think of to make this system fair, only if the authorities care.

With respect to this campaign 90% in KA who have a KA reg vehicle agree to the cause of this. A lot of KA reg people have offered their help to this campaign using different means. There are a 10% who has some other issues which I cannot comprehend due to which they are against or has a problem with this. Unfortunately many of who are against have always been in this state or any other state and luckily for them they never had to cross state borders every 2 or 3 years with one single vehicle and drive in a distant land fearing of this tax extortion.

Had these kind of actions were taken by our income tax department who have the right to go through every single transaction you make online or issue a search warrant and come home to search for "black money" every single day continuously by using similar " civilians " ( touts) that these RTOs are using, then I am sure that the sentiments of 99% or even 100% in this forum or in this country would have been united. Or think about the commercial tax department or the food safety department or the police taking similar action citing any silly reason.

The campaigners had reached the honourable supreme court with this issue, but court wanted to go through the state high courts and then may be with an appeal to the supreme court.
We all are responsible citizens paying their dues in all possible ways. Its just a shame that some governments stoop down to a different level to fleece money out of the common man. You could come saying that it was 11 months before and no-body paid money, but its quite an overlooked fact, I know personally many who were sure that they are going to live in KA paid the LTT.

I can go on longer with the different experiences that many had when they came for a tax refund and also the flaws in tax calculation with the system. Since you are a follower of the campaign I am sure that you would have at least noticed a few.

Indian judicial system believes in a principle that even if 100s of guilty are left unpunished, no innocent should be punished.

There are a lot of unfair laws in this country and may be in the world. A society progress economically and socially only when these laws are questioned. And this campaign is trying to do that in a civilized way. I can see a light at the end of the tunnel for sure, it might take a bit longer than what we would like to, but I am sure that even those who oppose this would definitely be benefitted after such a change.

Sorry for the long post.
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Old 8th June 2015, 15:44   #1498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rejoycjohn
Its not easy for the mere common man or the campaigners of this " Drive without Borders" to make up a common understanding from all the states of our vast country on the issue of uniform road tax. If a powerful constitution and the judiciary of the country cant do it its rather juvenile to expect the citizens to do that.
To be quite frank, the "common men" did manage to get a stay on the taxation drive. But finally looks like the KA government had its own points, which it proved and got the stay vacated. So it is not that common men are powerless. Campaigns may become meaningless, if there is no changes are brought out. It would become just a way to show protest. So that is I why I wanted to check of the campaigners (who mostly would be non-KA vehicle owners) are okay to at least influence their respective states to fore go the motor vehicle taxations. If they cannot influence their own mother-state, then how can they expect Karnataka to change its rules (which currently is favourable to the state).

Quote:
With respect to the taxes in Kerala, they have recently made a rule that a non-KL car can pay a tax of 1500 or thereabouts if a non-KL car need to ply on their road for a year which I guess is a reasonable amount and has a "fairness" in it.
Such a plan was there, and it was announced in the budget. But don't know if the rules and amendments etc. have been brought out. And I have not seen K.P or Kerala MVD going on any tax collection drives. So Kerala, has got some good ideas from Karnataka.

Quote:
Had these kind of actions were taken by our income tax department who have the right to go through every single transaction you make online or issue a search warrant and come home to search for "black money" every single day continuously by using similar " civilians " ( touts) that these RTOs are using, then I am sure that the sentiments of 99% or even 100% in this forum or in this country would have been united.
With TDS etc. quite actively used these days, chances of dodging income tax is less. Again on the usage of "unauthorised people" along with RTO squads needs to be stopped, unless RTO has some provision which allows such things. But that cannot be used to say the entire tax collection drive is to be stopped.

Quote:
We all are responsible citizens paying their dues in all possible ways. Its just a shame that some governments stoop down to a different level to fleece money out of the common man.
I am a very cynical man, so will not get into this point. My understanding is that a person would dodge paying the government its dues, if there is a chance. Yes there could be a minuscule percentage who plays the game by the book. The government was also forced to kind of get into this drive, as other wise people would just not pay up. How many people having non-KA vehicles actually paid LTT (and perhaps re-registered the vehicle) in KA, after the 12 month period. How many of it is voluntary, how many were through coercion (through spot checks by RTO squads). Perhaps, we may not get this data out.

Quote:
Indian judicial system believes in a principle that even if 100s of guilty are left unpunished, no innocent should be punished.
That is a very lofty ideal, my sir. The RTO squads just cannot allow 100s non-KA vehicles to have a free run in the state roads, without paying a paisa as tax, just because they may find an innocent person out there, and start checking on his tax due status etc. Even with the current tax collection scheme an innocent person can use the appellate authorities to quash the proceedings.

Quote:
I can see a light at the end of the tunnel for sure, it might take a bit longer than what we would like to, but I am sure that even those who oppose this would definitely be benefited after such a change.
At present the national road transport safety bill seems to have provisions which would simplify this whole business of tax collection. But I don't see it getting passed any time soon. Even political considerations & petty politics may delay the bills becoming an Act. But as I see it today no state government is really in a mood to give motor vehicle tax exemptions. A simplified law is beneficial to the country, no two doubts of it. The proposed GST scheme (not related to vehicles at all), is one such move in the direction. It may even make many of those umpteen check posts at state borders irrelevant.
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Old 8th June 2015, 17:58   #1499
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
They will be in for a rude surprise when they try to reclaim their LTT balance, when they plan to shift the vehicle else where. Karnataka RTO rules is that LTT etc. can only be refunded for a vehicle registered in KA. Ideally if they have paid the LTT (voluntarily or as part of the recent drive), it may be worth the hassle to get the vehicle re-registered.
How does one change registration without an Karnataka address. As of now we have payed KA tax for a 9 Yr old Indica so that our sales and service team can drive down to Bangalore region without being bothered, but they stay in Hotels, and do not have a permanent address there.
Similarly a client of mine from Hosur who usually sends his 2008 model Innova to the Bangalore airport to pick us up has also payed KA tax.
Now all these cars are non KA resident cars, if tax refund has to be collected before they are sold what does one do, use a fake address to register?
Infact we have stopped quoting for contracts south of Dharavad just for the travel and vehicle usage restrictions, and opportunities elsewhere so when the last contract finishes by 2016 no one needs to drive to south Karnataka, and the tax payed is a waste.

Rahul
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Old 8th June 2015, 18:33   #1500
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
How does one change registration without an Karnataka address. As of now we have payed KA tax for a 9 Yr old Indica so that our sales and service team can drive down to Bangalore region without being bothered, but they stay in Hotels, and do not have a permanent address there.
Similarly a client of mine from Hosur who usually sends his 2008 model Innova to the Bangalore airport to pick us up has also payed KA tax.
Now all these cars are non KA resident cars, if tax refund has to be collected before they are sold what does one do, use a fake address to register?
Infact we have stopped quoting for contracts south of Dharavad just for the travel and vehicle usage restrictions, and opportunities elsewhere so when the last contract finishes by 2016 no one needs to drive to south Karnataka, and the tax payed is a waste.

Rahul
I don't think you can register old vehicles - pre BS-IV - in Bangalore due to emission norms. A 2008 vehicle will be BS-III.

You can try in other cities in KA with a bogus address. Or forget about the tax paid.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 8th June 2015 at 18:47.
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