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Old 8th June 2015, 18:47   #1501
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
We have videos of Touts stopping vehicles and this was shown to these so called ''High Ranking officials'' and their reaction was very callous.

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This is what happens to a law abiding citizen for doing the right thing. Now any one wants to bring a vehicle to Karnataka?????

Waseem.....
Waseem Bhai, Even in my case i volunteered to pay the road tax of my TN registered santro at the koramangala RTO. Neither the officials asked me the proof as to when I brought the vehicle to bangalore nor did they ask me to get NOC for change of number plate. Infact they said it is my choice whether I stick to the TN number plate or opt for KA number plate.
Can we file a PIL as to how come the tax of a depreciated vehicle be more than the tax of the same vehicle when purchased new.
In my case at the time of buying the vehicle, i paid a LTT of Rs 23960 whereas in bangalore, I paid a LTT of Rs 32407 considering 4 years depreciation.
Agreed a state has the authority to follow it own tax structure but how come the tax for a depreciated vehicle be more than the new vehicle. This is what everyone is not able to digest.

Last edited by Jaggu : 8th June 2015 at 22:17. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large post. Thanks.
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Old 8th June 2015, 19:11   #1502
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

For me, brand new honda amaze was 70k + change in TN, over 87k in bangalore at ka51 electronic city RTO, with the amaze being 8 months old.

Higher tax rates in karnataka explain it all - I am not sure how you get to keep your old TN number after paying tax to register the vehicle in KA.
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Old 8th June 2015, 19:24   #1503
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
For me, bra...cle in KA.
As far as the state is concerned, the LTT is the jackpot and that is what they are after.

Registration change charges hardly amount to much vis-a-vis the LTT
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Old 8th June 2015, 20:35   #1504
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
How does one change registration without an Karnataka address. As of now we have payed KA tax for a 9 Yr old Indica so that our sales and service team can drive down to Bangalore region without being bothered, but they stay in Hotels, and do not have a permanent address there.
There are two things. For paying the LTT, they may not ask for any address proof. But just keep a copy of the tax paid receipt, so that when the Bangalore RTO stops the vehicle, the receipt would be use. But if you wish to change the registration, then I guess all the documents which RTO takes as address proof when registering a new vehicle should suffice. For the vehicles, I have purchased and registered in KA, only my rental agreement was used as proof. I don't have a permanent establishment in Bangalore. So for your Indica also, perhaps the address proof could be that of your business office, or your rental agreement etc. etc.
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Old 8th June 2015, 21:06   #1505
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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.....I am not sure how you get to keep your old TN number after paying tax to register the vehicle in KA.
You're paying to use the roads* (as, when & where they exist and can be called as such, of course), (re)registration fees itself is chump change compared to LTT.

You'll find most RTO officers (and touts) advising you not to re-register, "LTT receipt is enough saar! No need to change the number". What they conveniently 'forget' to tell you is you'll forego your refund if you choose not to re-register your vehicle after paying LTT. Many have learnt this the hard way, when they try moving out of KA a few years later and realize their LTT is sunk cost as KA RTO has no record of their vehicle ever being registered here, ipso facto no question of refund.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 8th June 2015 at 21:15. Reason: grammar
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Old 8th June 2015, 22:11   #1506
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Which is why I chose to re-register. Now to go and claim back my LTT amount from Tamil Nadu.
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Old 9th June 2015, 07:10   #1507
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
For me, brand new honda amaze was 70k + change in TN, over 87k in bangalore at ka51 electronic city RTO, with the amaze being 8 months old.

Higher tax rates in karnataka explain it all - I am not sure how you get to keep your old TN number after paying tax to register the vehicle in KA.
I look at a different angle. Even i have a TN registered santro for which i paid LTT in koramangala RTO. Trust me, the officials there were not worried as to whether i change the number plate to KA. They said it was my choice whether to apply for refund in TN RTO by going for NOC.
If I have to sell my car, i can sell it to a IT folk who keeps shuffling between KA and TN. There are ways to sell your car even if it is a non KA one.
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Old 9th June 2015, 09:48   #1508
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I have purchased and registered in KA, only my rental agreement was used as proof. I don't have a permanent establishment in Bangalore. So for your Indica also, perhaps the address proof could be that of your business office, or your rental agreement etc. etc.
We do not even have that, just hotel bills whenever me or any of our staff stays. About 20 - 25 days a year in Hotel Rama for me or any senior staff, and about 50-60 days a year at another cheap guest house called Sudhama where the junior staff stays.
None of the stays are longer than 4 consecutive days, as all are Pune residents visiting for work. Initially I used to drive my Polo and got stopped 3 times, but a proper explanation showing hotel bills, and toll receipts was usually enough, but some one else who could not talk convincingly enough ended up paying. Later on it was decided that any one traveling south of Hubli will take only that car.

Rahul
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Old 9th June 2015, 11:39   #1509
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Perfectly agreed. I think this is one area where people can raise a protest. In fact there have been numerous cases in Bengaluru, where well built men act as police officers in Mufti and trick old women to part away with their gold jewellery etc.
Why the change of heart, few days ago, you and someone else said that RTO folks are swell guys and well mannered to boot. Now you understand why the apartment folks didn't let them in. If I came across that check shirt wearing guy in my parking lot, only things I can think of are, vandalism, trying to break into to my vehicle or stealing petrol from a bike, all of which are common with basement car parks which are common in apartment blocks, without having these louts around.

LTT collection should be done in tandem with traffic police, otherwise no one knows who these people are, LTT anyway raises more funds than speeding tickets so the police can be asked to help and of course compensated for their effort. If someone runs over this agent on hire, how can you blame them for acting in self defence, when a stranger tries to block the road?

Those who pay LTT should approach an agent and get the registration done, use a local address with the help of a notary( around 2k for this). Instead of applying for a refund, sell the car in Bangalore itself.
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Old 9th June 2015, 11:57   #1510
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Spot on. In addition, Kerala's climate is humid, and gets heavy seasonal rains as well. My perception of the Kerala PWD changed a bit after i saw the Outer Ring Road of Bangalore crumple under heavy rains last year.

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Originally Posted by glenmz View Post
Was this sarcastic or an ignorant post? You usually do your research well, hence the question. Earlier I used to be frustrated with the roads in Kerala. But after seeing the roads in Bangalore and in comparing the taxes on road and fuel that the KA govt charges, I am pretty OK with the job KL govt is doing with the roads
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:43   #1511
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I paid LTT for my WB registered, 2000 model OHC Vtec, last year at the Jayanagar RTO (KA05). I was charged 46k+5k (tout charges and other paper work charges)! I was shocked to hear 46k as LTT for a car that is 15yrs old! Anyway, the brighter side to this was that since the car was registered in the year 2000, it was due for tax in Bengal also, hence , by paying the tax here and retaining the WB number, I enjoy driving the car in both the states without any worries.

As far as documentation goes, the only document that I did not have was the original invoice of the car, still it took me more than a month and a half to get the work done.

I retained the WB number, but now have a KA RC book. The change of number can be done at a nominal charge of Rs 2500/-

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 9th June 2015 at 12:45.
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:51   #1512
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
I retained the WB number, but now have a KA RC book.
I didn't think that was possible! Can you please confirm that the car is now legally registered in KA, but the number continues to be WB-XX-XX-XXXX??

My friend is shifting to Bangalore for 2.5 years, and will be going back to Delhi once that period is over. Will pass this option along to him as well to consider.
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:57   #1513
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I don't think so, RTO officials can employ locals/commoners to actually do any enforcement drives. But there are provisions for authorities to employ people as "Special Police Constables", but this is generally done during elections etc. Folks mainly ex-military, NCC etc. volunteer for this. This point, I feel can be raised with RTOs (with photographs as evidence). Either they will have to explain on what basis they do this, or prove that they are actually RTO officials in Mufti.
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Searching for this led to me another important point. The right of RTO (or Police) to enter a place, if they suspect that any person involved in violating the provisions of the law is believed to be staying in that place. Check Sec (5)(b).And if the team is led by a officer having gazetted rank (most likely Inspectors and above), they need not even come with a warrant. So the Housing Society and Associations may get into trouble if they stop RTO squads from entering the premises. In the case where they were pushed back, it could be that a gazetted rank officer was not leading the team.
Appointment of Motor Vehicles Officers and Powers to Stop & Check The Vehicle (Regulatory Measures)
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From the horses mouth, This could answer both your assumptions!

An article from deccan chronicle that came this week.
http://epaper.deccanchronicle.com/ar...spx?id=2962779

The very next day after this article came, the operation at whitefield happened. Probably, they didn't check the news paper before his officers set out for the hunt.
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Old 9th June 2015, 13:25   #1514
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by avira_tk
Why the change of heart, few days ago, you and someone else said that RTO folks are swell guys and well mannered to boot. Now you understand why the apartment folks didn't let them in.
You are comparing two separate incidents. One was criminals acting as police men and cheating gullible people - most were old women. And here in the case of RTO, it was RTO officials seeking entry into an apartment building. Please refer to my earlier post, in which I have given the legal provisions using which RTO (or Police Inspectors) have the rights to enter a building, if they suspect that tax dogers (or any rule violators) are hiding out there. If the search party is led by a officer of gazzetted rank, they do not even require a license.

So the Housing Society Association can try the trick of saying that they do not believe the squad to be genuine RTO officers. The moment they prove that they are indeed RTO officials (a warrant or government ID cards should suffice) the HSA are duty bound to let them in. And if the party is led by a gazetted officer, then no warrant is required.

So there is no change of heart here. I did not see you bringing in any evidence/proof when you suspect RTO officials to be even ready to molest women in basements etc. And even in the gullible women getting cheated part, it was not genuine policemen running this racket - but criminals. So rest assured, there is no change in my stance that RTO officials would be allowed inside, if they can prove themselves as RTO officials.

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If someone runs over this agent on hire, how can you blame them for acting in self defence, when a stranger tries to block the road?
Well it would be not a very simple thing. When you run over a man, it is the police who decides which charge is to be levied. There are sections in MV Act which deals with motor vehicle accidents. But there are also sections under Indian Penal Code for charges like "culpable homicide not amounting to murder" (Sec.304 IPC). If this charge is put up, it would be fun defending it. No driver has the right to run over any one just because he landed up in front of the vehicle. The driver would have to prove that there was an immediate threat for his life, and so acted in self defence and decided to run over the man. Please check up how many cases are there, where drivers mowed down people who landed up in front of their vehicles and then got away with this "self defence" argument. From a comparatively minor case of non-payment of taxes, the drivers may have to deal with some thing real close to murder charges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenmz
From the horses mouth, This could answer both your assumptions!
1. The RTO senior officials says touts have not been employed. Now it is for the other party to come up with evidence to show touts are getting engaged and challenge them. I guess Waseem has got the evidence and perhaps can share it with the media and the RTO officials.
2. Looks like the RTO higher officials themselves have not read up on the powers they have. And so they say that it may be the apartment association themselves who went ahead and stuck the stickers . I would tend to believe what is written down as a law.
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Appointment of Motor Vehicles Officers and Powers to Stop & Check The Vehicle (Regulatory Measures) Section 213 of Motor Vehicles Act, 1988
(5) In addition to the powers that may be conferred on any officer of the Motor Vehicles Department under sub-section(3), such officer may be empowered by the State Government in this behalf shall also have power to,-
a) make such examination and inquiry as he thinks fit in order to ascertain whether the provisions of this Act and the rules made thereunder are being observed;
b) with such assistance, if any, as he thinks fit, enter inspect and search any premises which is in the occupation of a person who, he has reason to believe, has committed an offence under this Act or in which a motor vehicle in respect of which such offence has been committed it kept: Provided that, -
(i) any such search without a warrant shall be made only by an officer of the rank of a Gazetted officer;
(ii) where the offence is punishable with fine only the search shall not be made after sunset and before sunrise;
(iii) where the search is made without a warrant, the Gazetted Officer concerned shall record in writing the grounds for not obtaining a warrant and report to his immediate superior that such search has been made;

c) examine any person and require the production of any register or other document maintained in pursuance of this Act, and take on the spot or otherwise statements of any person which he may consider necessary for carrying out the purposes of this Act;
d) seize or take copies of any registers or documents or portions thereof as he may consider relevant in respect of an offence under this Act which he has reason to believe has been committed;
e) launch prosecutions in respect of any offence under this Act and to take a bond for ensuring the attendance of the offender before any Court;
f) exercise such other powers as may be prescribed:

Provided that no person shall be compelled under this sub-section to answer any question or make any statement tending to incriminate himself.

Last edited by sachinpk : 9th June 2015 at 13:26.
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Old 9th June 2015, 13:36   #1515
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

One needs to be careful in drawing legal interpretations. The RTO has powers to enter private premises under section 213 for offences committed under the **MV Act** ( like drunken driving ):

Quote:
has reason to believe , has committed an offence under ***this*** Act or in which a motor vehicle in respect of which such offence has been committed is kept
Taxation falls under the KA MV taxation act , that's dervied from relevant provisions of the Constitution. The RTO cannot use the provisions of the MV Act to enter premises simply as taxation doesn't fall under it !

Also , there's a difference between reason to believe and opinion, although it isn't really relevant here as lawfully , they don't have the powers.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 9th June 2015 at 13:45.
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