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Old 10th June 2015, 07:20   #1531
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinayak View Post
I have a 2002 manufactured Hyundai Santro (am the second owner). I do not have the original invoice, so how do I go about calculating the Road Tax that I need to pay.

There is an existing thread, but in the 2-wheeler's forum. Hence thought this would be a more appropriate forum to ask this question.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ow-what-2.html (Don't have a bill / invoice for my ride. Now what?)
Try to get the invoice copy from the dealership by quoting the vehicle registration number.
As regards calculation of road tax, refer the enclosed image

Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore-road-tax.png

In addition to this, you have to consider 11% cess.
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Old 10th June 2015, 09:59   #1532
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Okay, I open up my day by visiting the most happening thread in Team-BHP

The reporter of Malayalam daily Mathrubhumi finds a "sudden love" for Karnataka and its tourism industry. Reports that Malayalis are now scared to come to Karnataka in their KL registered vehicles, and this would impact the tourism revenue. This is when, quite for some time Karnataka used to charge hefty one time entry fees from tourist buses which comes to Mysore, Brindavan Gardens etc. Mathrubhumi had reported this earlier. I don't think this report would have an impact on the RTO or GoKA, for the simple reason they cannot read Malayalam.
Mathrubhumi Report (Malayalam)

In the mean while the RTO conducts more surprise checks on buses which violated the permits. The drivers panicked, parked the buses where ever they can and ran for cover. The passengers were stranded. It would have been better for the RTO to catch these buses at the KR Market bus stand. 60 lakhs collected as fines etc.
RTO seizes 200 vehicles for violations

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
what's your love for the rto based on?
Perhaps just like the rabid hatred you have for these group of duly appointed government officials??

Quote:
If they want anonymity, they should try a different line of work, it's not hard work to present your ID when asked to, and misbehaving with women is an actual risk
Sorry if this hurts you, and please don't take it personally. As I see it, the risk of you (as a man) and the RTO (as another man) misbehaving with a woman is pretty much the same. Or else please let me know the cases in which RTO officials used their official powers to misbehave (or your earlier term - molest) women. Request you not to bring in videos in which women started throwing tantrums first, in that case RTOs have the rights to ask them to shut up and behave. RTOs have not asked for any anonymity, their drives are all happening out there in the open. And I see at least officer in his full uniform.

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Do you have a clue about how the notices are placed on cars parked inside the compound, the car is marked without even ascertaining anything about the owner
The notice does not mean, demand to pay up. The vehicle owner can either remove the vehicle from KA state, or go to the RTO and prove that they are on short term visit (use toll receipts etc.). The Housing Owner Associations could also have been more proactive and inform the RTO squads that how many vehicles in their parking lots are that of short term visitors who have come to visit their relatives. Most of the apartments claim to have fool proof security, so showing the records would be easy. By shutting the doors in front of the RTO squads (which may be legally valid), the HSAs ensured that the RTOs would now park right in front of the apartment blocks and start treating every non-KA vehicle coming out in a suspicious way. Think about it, in a parking lot there are 10 cars. 6 of them are from short term visitors, 4 of them are that of residents. The HSA can take the RTO squads (unofficially), and clearly tell them the true situation. Straight away the 4 residents can start scouting for money and pay LTT. But the remaining 6 may have lesser trouble.

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You should know that predators have very low success rate
Can you explain this in more detail? The constant whines, plus the amounts reported in news papers indicate that the LTT collection drive is a huge success. As I see it no more appeals have been filed in the courts. The National Road Safety Bill, is just a bill; no date has been even given for its presentation in Lok Sabha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hserus
So if RTO is carrying out a drive to grab more cash from out of state drivers, why would they engage touts (and pay some money per catch)
My guess is that the RTO is employing a whole platoon of drivers to drive the vehicles to the BMTC depot, or the parking grounds. And it is these drivers, who also gets deputed to stop the vehicles. The law allows RTOs to use all convenient means to transport the vehicle to a safe area, in case it gets seized.
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Old 10th June 2015, 11:36   #1533
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Reports that Malayalis are now scared to come to Karnataka in their KL registered vehicles
I can attest to this fact. My own parents do not want to drive down in their car, thanks to the recent developments. There are others, who are in the same boat, at least 4 families that I know. A couple of families had planned to tour Bangalore and Mysore etc on this summer vacation. Thanks to the overzealous RTOs, the plan was called off. Now, don't say that this is not loss of revenue by way of tourism. Another instance, a close friend got pregnant, and wanted her parents or in-laws to be with her here, while she could work from home during the few weeks before delivery and for a couple of months after the maternity leave. But, again, for the same reasons, her parents decided to take her to her native place.

Spoke to a family friend who's working in an RTO in Kerala. They do conduct surprise checks, but the maximum they charge is an annual tax and the fines. And they target the big fish, without hurting the mango man. And by big fish, I mean cranes, construction equipment, big marques etc with white plates.

One more verifiable fact I got to hear from them is that many KA RTOs care two hoots for communication from their KL counterparts regarding inter-state registration transfer and tax refunds. The place where they play games is with the crime records verification (not traffic violations but to check if the vehicle has been involved in more serious crimes), which can take up to 1 month in normal course. All it takes is a few clicks in a centrally maintained database, but they delay it as much as possible. Result is the owner's tax money is left stuck either in the KL RTO for want of some official communication regarding the re-registration from the KA RTO, or in KA territory due to unreasonable delays.

Quote:
quite for some time Karnataka used to charge hefty one time entry fees from tourist buses which comes to Mysore, Brindavan Gardens etc.
That in itself shows the greed for money. While other states allow for permits for shorter durations based on the duration of stay, here they ask for a year's tax for a day, or even a few hours of usage of their territory.

Quote:
In the mean while the RTO conducts more surprise checks on buses which violated the permits
Will they dare to catch the biggies? It's a public secret that all these interstate private buses abuse a tourist permit to take people in either direction. This permit is supposed to be used only to take a set of tourists from one place to a tourist place and back. Look closely at many of those Volvos and Scanias, you'll see "Tourist Vehicle" written somewhere, because that's the law. How many such buses are actually used for tourism?

Now, some rant: With all the money collected, all we get inside Bangalore city are magic boxes and ill-conceived flyovers, and roads made of bio-degradable materials. This concept of Life-Time Tax is flawed, as the govts are borrowing from future tax revenue to fund projects (namesakes) in the present, which is dangerous.

PS: I never wanted to comment in this thread, but being jobless for a while does give some crazy ideas

Last edited by silversteed : 10th June 2015 at 11:53.
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Old 10th June 2015, 11:53   #1534
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
Now, some rant: With all the money collected, all we get inside Bangalore city are magic boxes and ill-conceived flyovers, and roads made of bio-degradable materials. This concept of Life-Time Tax is flawed, as the govts are borrowing from future tax revenue to fund projects (namesakes) in the present, which is dangerous.

PS: I never wanted to comment in this thread, but being jobless for a while does give some crazy ideas
OT: The latest means of filling potholes that i have seen off late: Use mud

The mindset is let us see till the rains create havoc. Then we will fill with mud again.
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Old 10th June 2015, 11:59   #1535
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by silversteed
There are others, who are in the same boat, at least 4 families that I know.
In my case, there have been lots of folks coming down from Kerala; and nothing much happened to them. Again, no point in debating on that as each person's experience may vary.

Quote:
Another instance, a close friend got pregnant, and wanted her parents or in-laws to be with her here, while she could work from home during the few weeks before delivery and for a couple of months after the maternity leave.
If your friend had a KA registered car, the in-laws & parents could have helped? Assuming that maternity leave is for six months, and including the "couple of months", it makes 8 months of stay here? So it is not really a short term stay. They are not one time visitors, or people who have come here to complete some real emergency activity (surgeries etc.). In my wife's case, my in-laws (and my parents) used public transport (trains) to commute to-and-fro from Kerala. For local rides, they could use my own KA vehicles.

Quote:
They do conduct surprise checks, but the maximum they charge is an annual tax and the fines. And by big fish, I mean cranes, construction equipment, big marques etc with white plates.
I was stopped once, but that was around 4 years back. Showed the toll receipts and I was let off, right away. The catching of "big fish", again is a bit tricky. In Kerala, if they start a grand drive against non-KL vehicles like cars, the maximum folks who would get trapped would be Malayalis working in KA or TN . The ultimate losers would be again the Malayali community. Where as in Karnataka, it is not the case. Here, catching an odd "big fish" has lesser monetary benefit than catching 50 "small fishes" like cars. In Karnataka "small fishes" are more in abundance.

Quote:
One more verifiable fact I got to hear from them is that many KA RTOs care two hoots for communication from their KL counterparts regarding inter-state registration transfer and tax refunds
Agreed. But are we sure KL counterparts are also very cooperative in doing their part of the job. The states really act in silos, and cooperation is pretty much non-existant. And no state is really interested in refunding the money. If any state is very punctual and liberal in giving refunds, do share that information. I am not joking or being sarcastic here.

Quote:
That in itself shows the greed for money. While other states allow for permits for shorter durations based on the duration of stay, here they ask for a year's tax for a day, or even a few hours of usage of their territory.
Well, we can say it is greed. But these rates are all pretty much advertised, so people can make intelligent choices. The case I mentioned, these entry taxes are generally for tourist buses and is not on a per-day basis. It is more like a weekly permit type. There was a time when Karnataka (and Mysore) had some good tourist destinations. For families it was like a usual circuit of Ooty-Mysore-Bangalore. People found it worth while to visit Bangalore & Mysore, and Karnataka milked that opportunity. If for some reason people start shunning these places, perhaps they would reduce the rates.

Quote:
This concept of Life-Time Tax is flawed, as the govts are borrowing from future tax revenue to fund projects (namesakes) in the present, which is dangerous.
In the old (1980s?) yearly tax was the common thing. Every vehicle had a tax disc. Then every state government (not only KA) wanted to go for life time tax, as it increases its revenue, and also makes the tax collection simpler. Perhaps at a national level, they should try bringing back the yearly tax system (with computerisation etc.). But for that states should push the national government. Most likely it would not happen.

Quote:
PS: I never wanted to comment in this thread, but being jobless for a while does give some crazy ideas
Same here, sir! Work was a little less during the last six months. But times are changing, and I expect real hell & storm next month onwards.
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Old 10th June 2015, 12:15   #1536
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

If your friend had a KA registered car, the in-laws & parents could have helped? Assuming that maternity leave is for six months, and including the "couple of months", it makes 8 months of stay here? So it is not really a short term stay. They are not one time visitors, or people who have come here to complete some real emergency activity (surgeries etc.). In my wife's case, my in-laws (and my parents) used public transport (trains) to commute to-and-fro from Kerala. For local rides, they could use my own KA vehicles.

Sachin, You seem to go by rule books I guess. Not everyone prefers to commute by public transport (bus/train). Say your in laws have come to aid your preganant wife in bangalore and they stay for 8 months. Does this imply that their KL registered vehicle is being driven on so called bangalore roads for 8 months??
Their car would be idle for a major portion of their stay. So do not mix up the fact that their stay in bangalore for 8 months is equivalent to they using their KL registered car in bangalore for 8 months.
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Old 10th June 2015, 12:27   #1537
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Okay, Perhaps just like the rabid hatred you have for these group of duly appointed government officials??

Sorry if this hurts you, and please don't take it personally. As I see it, the risk of you (as a man) and the RTO (as another man) misbehaving...out there in the open. And I see at least officer in his full uniform.

The notice does not mean, demand to pay up. The vehicle owner can either remove the vehicle from KA state, or go to the RTO and prove that they are on short term visit (use toll receipts etc.).. By shutting the doors in front of the RTO squads (which may be legally valid), the HSAs ensured that the RTOs would now park right in front of the apartment blocks and start treating every non-KA vehicle coming out in a suspicious way.

Can you explain this in more detail? The constant whines, plus the amounts reported in news papers indicate that the LTT collection drive is a huge success. As I see it no more appeals have been filed in the courts. The National Road Safety Bill, is just a bill; no date has been even given for its presentation in Lok Sabha.
The hatred comes from first hand experience of how they do nothing in that office, besides saying "come next week, it'll be ready".

The risk of me attacking a woman versus these people is that they are employed by the state and they have the resources to walk, that is a fact of life. There is practically nothing that security employed by the HOA can do in this regard.

The notice is a demand to pay up, obviously not a welcome-to-bangalore sticker, the RTO folks tear up the toll tickets if you show it to them. People have been saying that and your jealousy makes it hard for you to comprehend that bit. If the HOA is not allowing them in, can't the RTO wait in that area and catch the defaulters, hasn't their work been made easier? The RTO already treats every out of state vehicle in a suspicious way, didn't you get that all this while.

You mentioned a cat catching a mouse, its just a fact that predators have a low success rate, the details are available on the internet. The new bill will have more shakedown techniques available, and I don't think we are discussing road safety here.
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Old 10th June 2015, 12:40   #1538
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by suresh_gs
Sachin, You seem to go by rule books I guess.
In a way yes. Because ultimately our actions get interpreted based on the rule books, am I correct? Think about it, if every body could do what ever they want, or form rules based on their own whims and fancies how would the country (or the world) run? Emotionally thinking, we could justify any action which we do; but that won't help if things become "official", right?

In my little way, I was just trying to help people with some legal issues which whether we like it or not are imposed on us. In this process, I have gained lots of knowledge as well. People have corrected me if my understanding was wrong.

Quote:
Not everyone prefers to commute by public transport (bus/train).
We cant' levy taxes based on individual choices, am I right? People want to come by their own vehicles, pay tax based on their whims and fancies. Then they decide whether they need to pay the tax or not. Do you think any sensible nation would tolerate this? I can clearly say that this is never a case of a "patently honest common man targeted by a patently dishonest government". It is not a black & white case, but has lots of shades of gray.

Quote:
Their car would be idle for a major portion of their stay. So do not mix up the fact that their stay in bangalore for 8 months is equivalent to they using their KL registered car in bangalore for 8 months.
My dear sir, for argument sake I can accept this. But if an elected government thinks in these terms, they would run out of budget in a few years time. For every single thing, people would come up with exceptions. Any common fund generation scheme would get scuttled because people would think in mere individual terms and just want to pay for things based on usage. That may work with telephone bills, or electricity bills. Taxes are collected considering the whole society in mind. And that is why the taxation act clearly states that tax would be levied on every vehicle which can be used in KA roads. The idea is "any thing can be used, would be used".

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
The risk of me attacking a woman versus these people is that they are employed by the state and they have the resources to walk, that is a fact of life. There is practically nothing that security employed by the HOA can do in this regard.
The security employed by HOA also cannot do much if you (or any individual) goes and molests a woman. The security chap just has the rights which a common citizen has. What would you do if you see a woman getting molested? The security chap can exactly do the same. And there are things like citizen's arrest etc. So for a security chap, an individual molesting a girl, or a government official molesting her is of no major difference. But here again, unless there has been cases of RTOs actually molesting women using their official powers, I don't think it is right to disrespect them on that ground. I don't think calling a group of people as woman-molestors is right, when there is no good proof to show that it is correct.

Quote:
The notice is a demand to pay up, obviously not a welcome-to-bangalore sticker, the RTO folks tear up the toll tickets if you show it to them.
If RTO is sitting and tearing up all toll receipts, I feel there would be even bigger protests by now. We would not even see a single non-KA vehicle on the roads. Or are you saying that even folks who abuse, crib, berate and talk about civil liberties (mainly in social media) all become meek and pay up when the RTO squad stops the vehicle?
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Old 10th June 2015, 12:44   #1539
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
In the old (1980s?) yearly tax was the common thing. Every vehicle had a tax disc. Then every state government (not only KA) wanted to go for life time tax, as it increases its revenue, and also makes the tax collection simpler.
Assuming the 'common man' buys a Swift VDi these days, road tax should be around 90k, this becomes 7.5k per year as road tax(averaged). The 'common man' won't stop, he will start calculating interest, tax saving options and then realize he is looted by the government.

Payment once a year-more ranting- more RTO checks- toll on common man health- more healthcare costs- more service tax for government- overflowing government coffers. Looks like 'heads you lose, tail i win', LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh_gs View Post
Does this imply that their KL registered vehicle is being driven on so called bangalore roads for 8 months??
Why dwell into such complex depths, let's keep it simple. Vehicle proved to be in KA soil for >1 month, he pays life tax.

Comply with it, or don't bring car into KA- either of it for the peace of mind for which we all sweat it out each and every day!
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Old 10th June 2015, 13:00   #1540
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
If RTO is sitting and tearing up all toll receipts, I feel there would be even bigger protests by now. We would not even see a single non-KA vehicle on the roads. Or are you saying that even folks who abuse, crib, berate and talk about civil liberties (mainly in social media) all become meek and pay up when the RTO squad stops the vehicle?
So many TV serials show corrupt govt officials behaving in such a manner that people start believing it. I won't pretend there isn't any corruption in govt offices, most of all in city and state govt offices, but a lot of the conflict seems to be caused because people both want the convenience of using their own car, as well as avoid the inconvenience of being taxed on it.

The earlier rule of keeping it for one year was a good one - many other states still have 6 months or 1 year. Karnataka is unique in making it one month.
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Old 10th June 2015, 13:52   #1541
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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OT: The latest means of filling potholes that i have seen off late: Use mud

The mindset is let us see till the rains create havoc. Then we will fill with mud again.
The main road in 4th block Koramangala is the same. They laid a new sewer line there six months ago and filled it with grey mud and stones. Still lying as it was with mud raising when dry and creating slush when wet.
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Old 11th June 2015, 10:39   #1542
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

My friend wanted to pay the road tax for his Maruti Astar : AP registration. Does anyone know clearly what is the procedure to pay life Time Road Tax in Karnataka?
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Old 11th June 2015, 12:50   #1543
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I wonder what ''His Holiness Mr.Transport Commissioner'' has to say about this article now.

Waseem....
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Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore-piccccccccc.jpg  

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Old 11th June 2015, 13:13   #1544
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
I wonder what ''His Holiness Mr.Transport Commissioner'' has to say about this article now.

Waseem....
Agree that the picture with touts 'giving direction' does not look all that great.

All of us agree without doubt that the 30 days rule is not practical. But this issue has been compounded by folks who know for sure they
1>Have settled here
2> Know that they will be required to stay for more than say 5+ years, and still refuse to pay tax and yet tag along with folks who genuinely need exemption from the 30 day rule.

With this background, there is nothing much 'His Holiness' can do.
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Old 11th June 2015, 13:39   #1545
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by JohnyRider View Post
My friend wanted to pay the road tax for his Maruti Astar : AP registration. Does anyone know clearly what is the procedure to pay life Time Road Tax in Karnataka?
Very easy - though this have described many times in this same thread, let me save you the effort to search for the post:

1. Download KMVT 14 from here and fill it.
2. Go to RTO office with original Invoice, filled up KMVT 14, valid insurance copy, rc book copy and address proof.
3. Talk to the officer and say that you want to pay the life time tax. He will do the calculation and will write down the amount on the KMVT 14.
4. Go to a nationalized bank (Not sure if private bank DD is acceptable, kindly check the same at RTO) and get a DD for the same amount.
5. Go to the cashier at RTO, show them the KMVT 14 with the amount, pay the DD, collect the tax paid receipt and KMVT 14 (I do not
remember if they seal \ scribble on it about the payment).
6. Give this KMVT -14 to the counter as directed by the cashier.
7. 'Enjoy' the 'Peaceful' Bangalore roads and traffic.

PS: Most of the time, the officer will not look at any documents other than the original invoice, but carry all the documents - better be safe than sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xotiq View Post

With this background, there is nothing much 'His Holiness' can do.
There is nothing like he cannot do anything to curb this, but more likely, it is like he will not do anything.
Especially after reading this: "I do not understand the problem. All that people have to do is cooperate and pay the road tax".

Reminds me of an old saying "You can wake up some one who is sleeping, but you can't wake up some one who is pretending to sleep".

--Anoop

Last edited by theexperthand : 11th June 2015 at 13:46.
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