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Old 23rd June 2015, 16:52   #1636
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Where have I been taunting IT industry? Yes I did say that IT folks do get better paid, than many of the other industries. And is that not correct? I also said that many of the IT folks have no problems in buying 50-80 lakhs (or more) worth apartments, but not in a mood to pay the state's road taxes. And my argument was that if a person can buy a home paying so much to settle down in this city, they can also pay a few extra lakhs as road taxes as well.


I don't know how you figured that this simple statement is a hate statement. Sir, if you do not wish to pay road taxes, then it is your duty to identify a place which does not collect road taxes and then move there. In Bangalore, fuel costs more, the rent advance is really huge (10 months) etc. etc. The list is endless. Try finding a solution, but if that does not work out what options does a person have. Either pay up and stay here, or move out. How does that become hate? It is a practical solution.
Thanks for summarizing your taunts. But you think that they are not taunts.

I find the "put a gun" statement highly objectionable. I live in Gurgaon. If someone says here this Tamil or that Maharashtrian are not invited, no one "put a gun" to them to come here and work here and they can pack up if they wish, I feel enraged. I understand for a fact that a person relocated from his place because he has to. Not because he wants to dodge tax. Nevertheless, Gurgaon isn't any more cosmopolitan than Bangalore and routinely North-Easterners are harassed.

Regarding taxation:
1. KA govt should collect road tax. It should not be a central tax (unless GST is in place).
2. If there is disparity with neighboring states and it is causing revenue leakage, try to fix the policy. Taxing double for a necessary (not luxury) commodity will always result in smuggling. Catching every smuggler will only result in heartburn. Note that, this is for PU and other neighboring vehicles.
3. LTT is bad idea. One month is draconian. This is acting like a island which is contrary to reality. There is a large amount of floating population. Make laws flexible.
4. People who are buying residential properties and living there should pay the road tax.

Point no 3,4 are the problem. The idea of road tax is not the problem. The problem is:
1) Intention of the amendment
The intention of the amendment is not to tax people who settle in Bangalore but to extort the floating population. KA govt is having a gala time as these people are the easiest targets. I have a housing loan and a kid. I can't risk my employment by refusing transfers to Bangalore. That actually passes for "gun on head" but you can't understand.
2) the method of implementation:
Don't punish the innocent. Verify the ownership of property. Do due diligence. Send notice. Use impounding as last resort. The problem with the implementation is assumption everyone is settled in Bangalore unless proven otherwise. (not even started about touts).

p.s. - All of this does not matter to you because there is a law which govt passed, court vacated stay and out of state people are tax dodgers. I know that you have an agenda, you are going to selectively quote me.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 16:57   #1637
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I also said that many of the IT folks have no problems in buying 50-80 lakhs (or more) worth apartments, but not in a mood to pay the state's road taxes.
I don't suppose it holds for 'IT folks' only. I know a lot friends, friends of friends from other domains who recently relocated to Bangalore and are in a similar situation.

One thing is, they have already paid their vehicle's LTT once and RTO's aren't very eager to return the amount. So its more or less a lost cause. And they aren't very happy to pay the same amount (or even more in case of Bangalore) once again. Hence they try to skip it.

I personally get your point but again I really feel bad putting myself into the shoes of people who are facing such a situation.

Quote:
Yes I did say that IT folks do get better paid, than many of the other industries. And is that not correct?
Well that's a bit of generalization mate. A couple of years back, this statement would have had grounds, but now I don't feel IT pay is higher than other industries. The industry is quickly moving towards a situation where Demand would be much less than supply - with students from (almost) all domains looking for jobs in IT and numerous new entrants. IT jobs aren't 'lucrative' anymore.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 17:06   #1638
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
This practically amounts to a citizen being at the whim of lawmakers who feel no obligation to treat citizens fairly, who in turn can't really do anything about the said unfair treatment in the absence of a robust judicial system to protect their interests.
"Treating citizens fairly" etc. is too vast & vague of a statement. For me an officer talking to me in a smooth manner may be fair, but for another only letting him go without paying the tax dues would be considered as fair. The citizens can try approaching the courts. A few citizens had tried that, and they also got a stay in pretty short time. But from what I see, the judiciary was not convinced to continue the stay and it was vacated. Approaching the judiciary is still the only option left.

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What you conveniently overlook is the same Constitution is the overarching document of the Republic of India, and provides a citizen the right to move around and live in whatever part of the country he/she pleases, NOT subject to conditions.
That is an incorrect interpretation. In that case a murderer or any criminal can just roam around the country, and any attempt by the police to detain him would be violating his fundamental right, am I correct? Even with this amendment a citizen's fundamental right is not violated. Karnataka has not shut the doors on any Indian citizen. But freedom of movement does not mean "freedom to roam around in my car, without paying the legally prescribed taxes, to the rightful authorities". If that was the case, we being Indians we would have invented ways to dodge every single tax system out here .

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Fair treatment is a cornerstone of our Republic and any democracy, and the day we start debating that 'laws are not about being fair', there's something REALLY wrong with our Republic and democracy
If that fair treatment is essentially allowing people to stop paying road taxes and getting away with that, let us "agree to disagree".

Quote:
Laws were made to govern people, not the other way round.
This law was enacted by what we call "people's representatives", i.e the elected politicians of Karnataka state. So the elected representatives of Karnataka state have used the mandate given by the voters of Karnataka state to enact a motor vehicle taxation amendment to bring in more revenue to the state treasury. So even this law is enacted by keeping the democratic principles in mind. Karnataka need not really bother about how a Keralite, Tamilian, Telugu, Haryanvi person thinks about her own (state specific) local laws. Those people have their own state governments who ideally should be looking into their grievances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum
Its like asking someone to buy a 15 year bus pass for travelling 2 months by bus.
The state has provisions to return the unused part of the life time tax. You would have to utilise that provision. By the way, can you confirm if your current state allows yearly payment of taxes? Or they also insist on LTT.

Quote:
Mumbai is a land of dreams, Maharashtra Government has a lot of those rights too which the KA government has, what if people coming to Mumbai without a domicile certificate were charged entry fees for using the infrastructure of this place ?
I know certain states charges entry fees for vehicles (and not for people). Maharashtra can also try that approach if they want to. What is good for Maharashtra is determined by the elected representatives of that state, and what is good for Karnataka is chosen by elected representatives from this state. Charging entry fees from people may also not stand judicial scrutiny - as that violates fundamental rights. Again when we compare state governments, we also need to know that we (as citizens) can also decide where to settle down, or work. If a person feels MH is the best place to be, he jolly well can go there.

Quote:
They could have made a yearly tax if they wanted to amend the law, but why did they chose to fill their kitties rather than makes lives easier for the 'outstation crowd' when they know Bangalore has a lot of these moving techie crowd, extortion can be a part of constitution too
I am planning to file an RTI application to see how many people actually (and properly, honestly) utilised the previous scheme (of paying LTT after 1 year of stay in KA). Perhaps that may give an indication on how many people would pay up even if a yearly tax paying option is given. From what I could make out from the reports; this cry for 1 year taxation facility only started after the amendment. Until then no one was even bothered (perhaps knowing that getting away is really easy). And please note that there are provisions to claim LTT refund.

Quote:
People need to pay road tax if they bring their car for more than a month because ?
Because Karnataka government (elected representatives of the people of Karnataka) feels that a person staying for more than 30 days in Bangalore, would most likely stay here for more time, use his non-KA vehicle on KA roads and so it is better to collect the life time tax (which a KA vehicle owner also pays) from him. In case he decides to go back, he can claim for refunds.

Quote:
Those Miniscule people gave the Karnataka Government 1 crore rupees in that video in a single day.
That is good to hear. But the Karnataka RTO had to actually start an enforcement drive to catch those minuscule people and make them pay up. The minuscule people other wise would have just ignored the tax paying part. If that video was made inside an RTO office, where people lined up and paid the LTT voluntarily, I would have readily agreed to your point.

Quote:
If someone says here this Tamil or that Maharashtrian are not invited, no one "put a gun" to them to come here and work here and they can pack up if they wish, I feel enraged
....
Nevertheless, Gurgaon isn't any more cosmopolitan than Bangalore and routinely North-Easterners are harassed.
Karnataka has brought this amendment which only affects non-KA vehicle owners. Any body from any part of India has been welcomed here. Yes, but if they come driving their cars, and plans to be here for some time plan to pay the life time tax as well. So just because of this, we cannot say that Karnataka is the only unfriendly place for others.

Quote:
Send notice. Use impounding as last resort
Send notice to which address? The one which the driver gives at the spot may be a fake one. The address on the RC book would be one which is at the state in which the vehicle is registered. What point in sending a notice to that address when the vehicle itself is found in Karnataka? If the stopped vehicle have any original documents like RC book, then the RTO can impound that (and spare the vehicle). But if no such documents are in the possession of the driver, impounding is the only option left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd1200
A couple of years back, this statement would have had grounds, but now I don't feel IT pay is higher than other industries. The industry is quickly moving towards a situation where Demand would be much less than supply - with students from (almost) all domains looking for jobs in IT and numerous new entrants. IT jobs aren't 'lucrative' anymore.
I understand. But compared to PSU jobs etc., IT seems to be in a slightly better shape. Off course things may not remain like that always.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 17:40   #1639
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
And please note that there are provisions to claim LTT refund.
That's the problem sir. The 'provision' exists in all RTO laws, but is the claim honored when the vehicle owner relocates to a different state and asks for refund? I am pretty sure if the pay-out would be hassle-free, most owners would not want to skip paying the taxes.

My brother owns an i20 which he bought in Kolkata. Due to job requirements, he moved to Hyderabad, Bangalore and now Mumbai with his car. He has already paid LTT's four times - the amount he paid to four state governments combined now has exceeded the price of the vehicle. Despite multiple follow-ups, there is nothing but procrastination from RTO officials.

On the contrary, if he would have bought an apartment, he would know for certain that he could sell it off and get the money back if he wishes to relocate.

(I am not blaming only KA RTO here, this holds for all states of Indian)

Last edited by nerd1200 : 23rd June 2015 at 17:44.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 17:43   #1640
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Because Karnataka government (elected representatives of the people of Karnataka) feels that a person staying for more than 30 days in Bangalore, would most likely stay here for more time, use his non-KA vehicle on KA roads and so it is better to collect the life time tax (which a KA vehicle owner also pays) from him. In case he decides to go back, he can claim for refunds.
I understand. But compared to PSU jobs etc., IT seems to be in a slightly better shape. Off course things may not remain like that always.
The bureacrats feel that way of course, and don't lie, you know very well that refunds can be processed only for cars that have been re-registered here, which a person staying for 28-31 days won't be able to do. He can't claim refunds, period. That is how the government works. Every motorable road in Bangalore is either tolled or built by the NHAI, the city roads are funded from municipal taxes (on the 50-80lakh apartments)and road outside Bangalore are a joke, basically nothing exists outside city limits, there should be a restriction on non Bangalore registration too, those areas contribute nothing to the state kitty.

Compared to which PSU does IT pay better, only someone really ignorant of reality can make such a stupid statement, do you have some numbers to back up this claim? Go to any posh locality, government/PSU employees outnumber IT folks anywhere.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 17:45   #1641
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I moved to Bangalore in June 2014 from Pune. In Aug 2013 I had purchased a new Wagon R, obtained NOC from Pune RTO through an agent. Paid Karnataka state tax of Rs. 56000 which is too much when compared to Rs. 39000 tax that I had paid in Pune for the new car.

Contacted the same agent for the tax refund, he mentioned that tax refund wouldnít happen till vehicle registration number is not changed, I told him this may take time. He mentioned that in that case he will initiate the process of refund and once I receive the new RC book it can be processed further.

Vehicle can be re-registered only after completion of 3 months from the date of tax payment. I submitted the application and after a million trips to the RTO finally got the new RC book with KA registration number in Jun 2015. Contacted the agent back and asked him to process it further for the refund, he got back to me after a day and informed that as per RTO rules the application needs to be submitted within 3 months form the date the NOC was issued and hence I wonít get a refund. This was shocking news, he also told that he will return the advance that I had paid for this.

I got this verified through a friends friend who is employed at Pune RTO who confirmed this; however I am still not convinced. When they have taken a lifetime tax how can they just give a window of 3 months to claim a refund. I have hit a wall here as I donít have time to travel to Pune and attend to this personally. But I am determined to get some amount back as itís not a small amount and my hard earned money. I checked on the internet there is not information about this 3 month rule.

Hence I request for some information from fellow BHPians:
1) Has anyone ever got a tax refund from Pune RTO, if yes then was the application accepted after 3 months from the NOC issue date.
2) Was this done through an agent, if yes then can you share any contact details of the agent.
3) Can I submit an RTI to Pune RTO to share information about road tax refund as it is not available on their website
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Old 23rd June 2015, 17:52   #1642
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by avira_tk
The bureacrats feel that way of course, and don't lie, you know very well that refunds can be processed only for cars that have been re-registered here, which a person staying for 28-31 days won't be able to do. He can't claim refunds, period.
I very well know that. LTT refunds are for vehicles registered in KA. So if a person knows that he won't stay for more than 30 days, he can plan in advance to get the vehicle removed from the state. Ignorance of the law is generally not accepted as an excuse.

Quote:
Compared to which PSU does IT pay better, only someone really ignorant of reality can make such a stupid statement, do you have some numbers to back up this claim? Go to any posh locality, government/PSU employees outnumber IT folks anywhere.
. So are you saying that all those high-funda, British (or American) named villas,gated communities, high rise buildings are all owned by government/PSU employees? Well in that case there should be some really big PSU or government companies located in Bangalore, which I don't think so exist. The so called "posh" localities you mentioned, were there as part of the Bangalore of olden days. Most of these were built by folks who had made the city their home much before IT even landed in Bangalore. And many of the posh localities are having quarters for the PSU folks, which these folks would have to vacate when they get transferred. Infact a common crib I hear from the old crowd is that the city became a costly one AFTER IT gained foot hold here. Even with the old "posh" localities, the cost of living was much lower.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:00   #1643
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The state has provisions to return the unused part of the life time tax. You would have to utilise that provision. By the way, can you confirm if your current state allows yearly payment of taxes? Or they also insist on LTT.
Oh YEAH, HOW ? By re registering my car in Bangalore to claim the LTT back, going out of state after some months and claiming road tax back (which they take months to give back, not the same urgency when they want to collect it and impound your vehicle and all that jazz) and again go to my state and re register my car. Are u kidding me ? Do you go from Bangalore to Chennai Via Delhi ?

My state does not have yearly tax and neither do they catch anyone for road tax whichever state your car belongs to. We have 4 DN registered cars in our building, numerous TN, KA, DL registered cars in our lane, some of them more than 4 to 5 years old. Cops here don't care for such things. Regionalism is not a card we play here.

To be honest, I have lived in Bangalore for 3 years and I know how people there think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I know certain states charges entry fees for vehicles (and not for people). Maharashtra can also try that approach if they want to. What is good for Maharashtra is determined by the elected representatives of that state, and what is good for Karnataka is chosen by elected representatives from this state. Charging entry fees from people may also not stand judicial scrutiny - as that violates fundamental rights. Again when we compare state governments, we also need to know that we (as citizens) can also decide where to settle down, or work. If a person feels MH is the best place to be, he jolly well can go there.
I don't think you believe in the principle of India at all. Fundamental rights of moment is restricted when people are not allowed to move along with their vehicles. Oh but that is 'wrong interpretation' ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I am planning to file an RTI application to see how many people actually (and properly, honestly) utilised the previous scheme (of paying LTT after 1 year of stay in KA). Perhaps that may give an indication on how many people would pay up even if a yearly tax paying option is given. From what I could make out from the reports; this cry for 1 year taxation facility only started after the amendment. Until then no one was even bothered (perhaps knowing that getting away is really easy). And please note that there are provisions to claim LTT refund.
Were people being caught during those times for not paying the road tax in KA again ? Did the government publicize these rules back then for people to know ? People are asking now, because they did not even know such a thing of paying different road taxes in different states existed, now they know and now they want to pay a yearly road tax or the duration they stay in Bangalore. I have stayed in Bangalore many times for more than a month with my MH registered Swift D, I did not even know such a thing existed because it does not exist in our state and its beyond common sense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Because Karnataka government (elected representatives of the people of Karnataka) feels that a person staying for more than 30 days in Bangalore, would most likely stay here for more time, use his non-KA vehicle on KA roads and so it is better to collect the life time tax (which a KA vehicle owner also pays) from him. In case he decides to go back, he can claim for refunds.
So now elected representatives of KA are Bejan Daaruwala ?

UK and US have a lot of states too, they never behave like how your state government does. Maturity needs to be highly injected in representatives of KA

Last edited by humyum : 23rd June 2015 at 18:01.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:05   #1644
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
"Treating citizens fairly" etc. is too vast & vague of a statement. For me an officer talking to me in a smooth manner may be fair, but for another only letting him go without paying the tax dues would be considered as fair.
I think you understand very well what I meant by fair. Just in case you didn't or are being intentionally obtuse, I meant fair as in 'what makes sense as a fair transaction', NOT fair as in 'illegal but to my personal advantage', which you tend to presume.


Quote:
In that case a murderer or any criminal can just roam around the country, and any attempt by the police to detain him would be violating his fundamental right, am I correct?
Couldn't be WRONGER if you tried!

I respect your views (even if I disagree with some of them), but comparing a common citizen's right to move across his country to a criminal's demand not to be detained because 'the Constitution says I can roam freely' is as ABSURD an argument as I've ever heard.



Quote:
Karnataka need not really bother about how a Keralite, Tamilian, Telugu, Haryanvi person thinks about her own (state specific) local laws. Those people have their own state governments who ideally should be looking into their grievances.
I can agree that no state is bound by what another state does, but we are citizens of the Republic of India, not of individual states (I remember you taking offense when Waseem sarcastically referred to KA as a Republic on its own), so a citizen of India is well within his rights to be aggrieved when different states of ONE country create situations that infringe on his constitutional rights.


Quote:
The state has provisions to return the unused part of the life time tax. You would have to utilise that provision. By the way, can you confirm if your current state allows yearly payment of taxes? Or they also insist on LTT.
I've paid LTT on my car in TWO states in its lifetime, and I did follow all procedures for re-registration and refund. No prizes for guessing what happened to my legitimate refund claim. 'Broken system' is how you would put it.

And for the record, I object to your entire current/home state theory. It's my home country, and all states are my states if I choose to live in them.


Quote:
I am planning to file an RTI application to see how many people actually (and properly, honestly) utilised the previous scheme (of paying LTT after 1 year of stay in KA). Perhaps that may give an indication on how many people would pay up even if a yearly tax paying option is given. From what I could make out from the reports; this cry for 1 year taxation facility only started after the amendment. Until then no one was even bothered (perhaps knowing that getting away is really easy). And please note that there are provisions to claim LTT refund.
You've conveniently and constantly presumed every citizen as a tax-dodger and the govt. as righteous and law-abiding. Not just in this post, but throughout the whole thread. Care to explain why?



P.S. As for the 'law is the law' argument, this is what I said a while ago on this thread, I see no reason to change that opinion:

Quote:
Before we hit the same 'the law is the law' loop again, I admit it's a 'legally sound' position to take as-is, but that doesn't mean it's NOT a slippery slope. Law should not supercede justice and when it does, the law needs to be changed. If existing laws were set in stone, we'd still be a British colony. I don't even need to mention how it can be extrapolated back to beginning of time. Very slippery slope indeed.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 23rd June 2015 at 18:28.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:13   #1645
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I have a very simplistic way of looking at this thread :

1) other than judiciary stepping in for a fresh stay order, and/or, the implementation of centralized INDIAN UNION road tax, nobody can stop this aggressive money collection drive.

2) only a few members (silverwood) have pursued concrete action against the drive

3) so what are we (including myself) doing in this forum ? just ranting - why not, relieves pent up frustration. One way or the other.

So, dear Sachin_pk, with all due respect,

Don't insult the intelligence of whoever is ranting here by saying "the law is the law" - we all know pretty well how ministers/bureaucrats/contractors loot govt money by over-inflating expenditure bills & inventing new "schemes for public" which lie in limbo. They have found a new cash cow. The 11-months to 1-month slashing is NOT to feed the poor and hungry, but to mint more money for themselves. Now, they have been extremely smart to squeeze out max.mileage from the state subject of road taxes, and RTO is the tool which is already in place, to implement the same. Of course, citing the legislative, you know this is fully legal. The judiciary cannot do anything about this, because they are allowed only to "interpret" the law, not make them. Tomorrow, KA assembly could pass another law - It would be something like "anybody who does not have ancestral roots in KA has to pay 200% higher property tax than natives" - since property tax is a state subject, mind you.

So this whole bruhaha over "afterall it's a law" is really insulting & demeaning the intelligence of whoever is reading this thread. The govt, being extremely smart, has found a legal way of looting money. Thats it. Please allow us to rant.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:18   #1646
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Hmm.. So basically, if a person were to visit KA for 6 months with his vehicle, he would ideally have to donate the LTT amount to KA RTO?

As per KA RTO, you need to pay up LTT after 1 month of stay, but can apply for re-registration only after 1 year?! Now its pretty obvious unless you re register, the previous RTO are not obliged to refund the LTT which was paid to them.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:24   #1647
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
So just because of this, we cannot say that Karnataka is the only unfriendly place for others.

Send notice to which address?

I understand. But compared to PSU jobs etc., IT seems to be in a slightly better shape. Off course things may not remain like that always.
Are you saying the KA is being unfriendly here? Someone pinch me please.

Bro, standing on the road is required for extortion from floating public. If you really want to find tax dodger and tax him, hard work and due diligence is required (you conveniently ignored or just missed that part). It depends on RTO willpower. If they use their detectives (maids, guards) and outsourced workers (touts), these people should be sent notice. Given RTO (over)zealousness, ownership of a property (and out of station vehicle) isn't difficult to ascertain.

Besides, IT's shape is a myth. People, who get to work overseas, buy the houses. People who have stayed in India, stay 15 KM far from the city, buy a preowned car for 2.5 Lacs, spend rest of the money on wedding and wife's delivery ( read me). Worst is, every RTO, police, waiter thinks that you earn a lot of dollars.
I am yet to meet a colleague who has not been onsite and has bought a house on his own in any city.
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Old 23rd June 2015, 18:32   #1648
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Commenting on the thread to just register my protest that though "nobody put a gun to my head to come to bangalore", being a citizen of India I have every right to be treated fairly wherever I go and this exploitative legislation and the 'gun on the head' argument are both just that, 'junk'!

Mods: Please feel free to delete.
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Old 24th June 2015, 10:32   #1649
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum
My state does not have yearly tax and neither do they catch anyone for road tax whichever state your car belongs to.
Why does not Gurgaon have a provision of paying yearly road tax? I ask this because non-KA vehicle owners want this facility off late. So why ask KA to do some thing extra, where many other states (from where many non-KA vehicles come from) don't offer such a provision? The only difference I see is that Gurgaon RTO is not bothered about out of state vehicles being on their roads. Again, it all depends upon the individual state's plans for revenue collection.

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To be honest, I have lived in Bangalore for 3 years and I know how people there think.
We are going off in a different direction here. So will not comment on that. But I remember your self admitting that in Gurgaon people from North Eastern states were treated badly. So each state may have its own plus and minus.

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Fundamental rights of moment is restricted when people are not allowed to move along with their vehicles. Oh but that is 'wrong interpretation' ?
Where exactly in the constitution does it say that people's right for freedom of movement includes their freedom of movement using their own private vehicles? Please share that interpretation. Because if that was the whole idea of "freedom of movement", the lawyers would have jumped onto it and got very many acts amended/annulled. Think about it, with your interpretation of the "freedom of movement" many provisions in MV Act also is invalid. I can get drunk and drive on the roads, why should the traffic police stop me and make me pay a hefty fine? My vehicle can attain a speed of 130kmph, why is there a restriction imposed on the vehicle speed? It again cuts my "freedom of movement", by forcing me to go at a very low speed etc.

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Did the government publicize these rules back then for people to know ? People are asking now, because they did not even know such a thing of paying different road taxes in different states existed, now they know and now they want to pay a yearly road tax or the duration they stay in Bangalore
The world generally takes a principled stand that - Ignorance of law is not an excuse. So we ideally cannot say that we were ignorant of law and hence did not pay up. I had a KL registered vehicle, which I used in KA around 15 years back. Twice the traffic police caught me and fined me because I did not have the road tax paid. That was enough for me to "learn" that a permanent solution would be to pay the LTT. I paid that, and that was the end of it. I used the vehicle for next 4-5 years. Other people may have thought differently and not paid LTT at all. But with now the extensive drive going on, tax dodgers want to have a slightly simpler (for them) provision to pay the tax.

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UK and US have a lot of states too, they never behave like how your state government does. Maturity needs to be highly injected in representatives of KA
If we start comparing UK and US, with the Indian state of KA, then we will have to again fall back in the argument that people of India are free to migrate to any country whose law they find is more suitable for them.

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
but comparing a common citizen's right to move across his country to a criminal's demand not to be detained because 'the Constitution says I can roam freely' is as ABSURD an argument as I've ever heard
The simple fact is that even with the taxation act amendment, no fundamental right in the constitution is violated. Freedom of movement does not automatically mean "freedom of movement in a vehicle of my choice". Is Karnataka checking people's ethnicity, religion, caste etc. before allowing them inside? If they do it, yes, then the freedom of movement is indeed violated. Please remember every state has a law to collect road tax. So do you think every single state happily went ahead and violated the Indian Constitution, while the judiciary etc. kept quiet for umpteen years?

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so a citizen of India is well within his rights to be aggrieved when different states of ONE country create situations that infringe on his constitutional rights
I do understand that people can be aggrieved, but infringement of constitutional right has to be proven in a court of law. Did the last plea to Hon. High Court of Karnataka bring in this aspect? Was it argued and proven to be true? I don't think so, because the stay got vacated.

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It's my home country, and all states are my states if I choose to live in them.
I agree with you. But that does not absolve a person's duty to pay the state specific taxes which every state demands. So be a model citizen (of the state you currently live in), and clear all the tax dues - if you have any.

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You've conveniently and constantly presumed every citizen as a tax-dodger and the govt. as righteous and law-abiding. Not just in this post, but throughout the whole thread. Care to explain why?
For this thread let us replace "citizen" with "non-KA vehicle owner", because citizen means every person including people who don't even have vehicles. My gut feeling is that non-KA vehicle owners for quite some time have not even used the 11 month rule to get the registration changed and LTT paid. They just ignored it, and enforcement was also lax. I also now understand that a few people have also paid LTT (even without strong enforcement). With the RTI, I am trying to get data on voluntary LTT payment in the year 2013 (before amendment), voluntary and coerced (by RTO spot checks) payments of LTT in the year 2014, and till date in the year 2015. My idea is to check if even without the tax amendment, and stronger enforcement non-KA vehicle owners had made their LTT payments promptly. Because if they had paid promptly, a strong enforcement is not even required. I have filed the RTI yesterday and let me see what response I get.

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Originally Posted by venkyhere
1) other than judiciary stepping in for a fresh stay order, and/or, the implementation of centralized INDIAN UNION road tax, nobody can stop this aggressive money collection drive.
I don't know if a fresh appeal has been filed in this case, as the court may not take a suo moto case in this regard. I was also trying to find out, using what provisions an appeal can be filed, and can also stand legal scrutiny. Please also not that many states (at least two I know off, KL & KA) has already opposed the plans to have a centralised road tax collection. So it is not a case of arrogant KA, with all other states being meek. Every state (and its politicians, bureaucrats) are eager to retain all tax generating sources with them. By the way, I do support a centralised road tax and also the proposed national road transport safety bill.

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2) only a few members (silverwood) have pursued concrete action against the drive
Yes, and I appreciate his determination on this count. He walked his talk .

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3) so what are we (including myself) doing in this forum ? just ranting - why not, relieves pent up frustration. One way or the other.
Okay. What caught my interest was the liberal interpretations of the various constitutional provisions, legal provisions etc by every one out here. Off course there interpretations were all suiting their view point. Many of them were later found to be absolutely incorrect. Even a judge's verbal comments were interpreted as the final verdict, but it was a nasty surprise when the stay order got vacated.

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Tomorrow, KA assembly could pass another law - It would be something like "anybody who does not have ancestral roots in KA has to pay 200% higher property tax than natives" - since property tax is a state subject, mind you.
Such a law can also be appealed, and there are even provisions like a Constitution Bench who exclusively check the validity of the law, along with the fundamental rights enshrined. So if the law is found to be violating such a provision, the law gets scrapped or other wise it would stand up as a valid law.

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Originally Posted by atniya
Bro, standing on the road is required for extortion from floating public. If you really want to find tax dodger and tax him, hard work and due diligence is required (you conveniently ignored or just missed that part).
Which I am pretty sure the RTO is doing, as I see the amounts collected as LTT is huge and I also see the RTO mobile squads pretty often. More often than I used to see them.

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If they use their detectives (maids, guards) and outsourced workers (touts), these people should be sent notice.
The RTO is just gleaning information from these folks. Now how that information gets used is up to them. So if the information shows a large number of non-KA vehicles regularly parked in an apartment complex, all they have to do is to patiently wait outside just on the public road.
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Any ways, I am done for the day. Will just report of any RTO checks or any media reports on this topic. I understand that if the thread is to rave & rant about the law, then there is nothing to discuss. But if any body finds a judicial interpretation which reads - "Freedom of movement" means "Freedom of movement using one's own private vehicle", please share it here. It would not only help me clear my (mis?)understanding, but also may give non-KA vehicle owners another good provision to file an appeal in the courts.
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Old 24th June 2015, 11:15   #1650
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

From the State's point of view, annual tax option will increase the corruption-citizens will chose to pay less(in graft) than pay the 1 year's road tax during the checks. Then where will they get funds to build all the roads(or is it tenderSURE footpaths?).

It would be unfair to blame Karnataka alone. Maybe if IT has developed in KBK region instead of Bangalore, then we would all be having a very active 'rants on KBK region traffic' thread followed by Out of State Cars Vs. KBK administration'.
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