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Old 24th June 2015, 11:46   #1651
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
My gut feeling is that non-KA vehicle owners for quite some time have not even used the 11 month rule to get the registration changed and LTT paid. They just ignored it, and enforcement was also lax. I also now understand that a few people have also paid LTT (even without strong enforcement). With the RTI, I am trying to get data on voluntary LTT payment in the year 2013 (before amendment), voluntary and coerced (by RTO spot checks) payments of LTT in the year 2014, and till date in the year 2015. My idea is to check if even without the tax amendment, and stronger enforcement non-KA vehicle owners had made their LTT payments promptly. Because if they had paid promptly, a strong enforcement is not even required. I have filed the RTI yesterday and let me see what response I get.
Be interesting to see what numbers turn up in response to your query, but I'd think you would need a bigger sample than ONE year pre-amendment to get a clear(er) picture, still a worthwhile effort.

And given you always insist on arguing on facts and the letter of the law, it's interesting to see that your RTI application is based on your gut feeling, still if the numbers vindicate it, more power to you.
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Old 24th June 2015, 11:46   #1652
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Sachin ,

I want a simple answer which is logical and humane.

I started working in Chennai, after which I moved to Kolkata. I worked in Kolkata and earned and saved enough to buy a car. After 3 years, I moved to Bangalore and moved my car with me. 2 years hence, I got posted in Pune for a year and moved back to Bangalore. I am now being sent to Gurgaon for a year, post which I am supposed to return to Bangalore(not sure though)
Oh I forgot: I was onsite in the midst for a year and had to keep my car with my parents in Kolkata

Should I have paid LTT in all the states and claimed refund in the new state? Please give a correct order / flowchart of what I should have done, keeping practicality in view and also that I do not have an endless supply of money. I have to move places to keep my kitchen running, not out of overtly lucrative opportunities.

If you are wondering if this is hypothetical : no it is not. I am living this life and so are many of my friends/relatives/colleagues.

Last edited by adg_andy : 24th June 2015 at 11:48.
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Old 24th June 2015, 12:13   #1653
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by adg_andy View Post
Sachin ,

I want a simple answer which is logical and humane.

I started working in Chennai, after which I moved to Kolkata. I worked in Kolkata and earned and saved enough to buy a car. After 3 years, I moved to Bangalore and moved my car with me. 2 years hence, I got posted in Pune for a year and moved back to Bangalore. I am now being sent to Gurgaon for a year, post which I am supposed to return to Bangalore(not sure though)
Oh I forgot: I was onsite in the midst for a year and had to keep my car with my parents in Kolkata

Should I have paid LTT in all the states and claimed refund in the new state? Please give a correct order / flowchart of what I should have done, keeping practicality in view and also that I do not have an endless supply of money. I have to move places to keep my kitchen running, not out of overtly lucrative opportunities.

If you are wondering if this is hypothetical : no it is not. I am living this life and so are many of my friends/relatives/colleagues.
A simple answer going by the trend in which logic is implemented on the entire tax system, you should have resigned your job and taken up a job that would have guaranteed that you stick with a single state rather than switching jobs to earn a bit more every time. Make your employer sign a bond that they would not transfer you to another state. As simple as that. After all no one "forced you at point blank" and asked you to change jobs and move to certain cities.
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Old 24th June 2015, 12:16   #1654
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Which I am pretty sure the RTO is doing, as I see the amounts collected as LTT is huge and I also see the RTO mobile squads pretty often. More often than I used to see them.
Are you saying that RTO is doing extortion from floating public?

Quote:
The RTO is just gleaning information from these folks. Now how that information gets used is up to them. So if the information shows a large number of non-KA vehicles regularly parked in an apartment complex, all they have to do is to patiently wait outside just on the public road.
Again distorting the argument. Floating public also stays in the those apartments. They don't live on the road/hotel. I said about ascertaining the ownership and out of station vehicle. You reduced it to just out of state vehicle.
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Old 24th June 2015, 12:23   #1655
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by adg_andy View Post
Sachin ,

I want a simple answer which is logical and humane.

I started working in Chennai, after which I moved to Kolkata. I worked in Kolkata and earned and saved enough to buy a car. After 3 years, I moved to Bangalore and moved my car with me. 2 years hence, I got posted in Pune for a year and moved back to Bangalore. I am now being sent to Gurgaon for a year, post which I am supposed to return to Bangalore(not sure though)
Oh I forgot: I was onsite in the midst for a year and had to keep my car with my parents in Kolkata

Should I have paid LTT in all the states and claimed refund in the new state? Please give a correct order / flowchart of what I should have done, keeping practicality in view and also that I do not have an endless supply of money. I have to move places to keep my kitchen running, not out of overtly lucrative opportunities.

If you are wondering if this is hypothetical : no it is not. I am living this life and so are many of my friends/relatives/colleagues.
Due apologies for butting in, but you're not going to get a 'practical' answer, because one doesn't exist.

Indian laws are not supposed to be 'fair' or 'practical', they're supposed to fulfill the myopic viewpoint of whoever happens to propose/write/implement them at any given time, and it's not limited to a few states getting greedy about road tax. Look at the whole taxation scene and you'll only find examples of badly thought out and worse implemented laws, then we wonder why we're unable to attract consistent investment or graduate from 'wannabe first world' country.

There are plenty of people who want to do the right thing, but they're harassed and marginalized to the point of giving up and joining the tax-dodging herd. No wonder our IT Return filing rate is ~4%. I personally think a lot more people can be brought under the taxation ambit just by making the process fairer and simpler, but our bureaucratic geniuses wanted us to file a 14-page IT Return instead, with details they have no business needing to know, before the Fin Ministry saw sense and quashed the idea.

Nothing's gonna happen though when you're Constitutionally authorized to be 'impractical'.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 24th June 2015 at 12:30. Reason: Grammar & sentence formation
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:32   #1656
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by ramzsys
From the State's point of view, annual tax option will increase the corruption-citizens will chose to pay less(in graft) than pay the 1 year's road tax during the checks.
And the best part is that there are few (or any) state in India which now allows a one-year road tax payment scheme. It is LTT all through out. So why should Karnataka be singled out and given titles, as if every other state is perfect?

Quote:
Maybe if IT has developed in KBK region instead of Bangalore, then we would all be having a very active 'rants on KBK region traffic' thread followed by Out of State Cars Vs. KBK administration'.
Exactly my friend. The nation's development has been skewed. There are certain pockets which kind of smelt the coffee and knew which industries would come up in future, and allowed them to set shops well in advance. But there were a larger chunk of area/states which just went on the usual style. They (the politicians in that state, and the voters to an extent) did not have any such plans. So we see large scale movement of people from one part of the country to another. I do not wish to start a debate on this, but can every individual who rants about Karnataka being unfair think about what their own favourite places have done which helps their own well being, and why they even had to shift to Karnataka? I am not even asking people to write about it, but just think about it honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
And given you always insist on arguing on facts and the letter of the law, it's interesting to see that your RTI application is based on your gut feeling, still if the numbers vindicate it, more power to you.
For facts and letter of law, there are enough and more chance to get it through internet. Most of the Acts, laws and even case laws can be googled out any time. But when it comes to numbers, such information is not readily available. The RTI application is to get the exact numbers out. How much tax was collected in a year from non-KA vehicles before the tax act was amended. It would give us a fair idea on how many non-KA vehicles bothered to pay LTT when the old act was in place.

Quote:
Nothing's gonna happen though when you're Constitutionally authorized to be 'impractical'.
The constitution itself is a man made document, with a clear process defined to make amendments to it. But for that a large part of the Indian society have to be politically active. And that does not mean taking out strikes, or holding harthals/bandhs etc. But be active enough (by voting etc) to influence the political class. If we expect our political classes, bureaucrats etc. to turn Raja Harishchandra over-night and come up with laws which makes every one happy (with no responsibility from our side), that is just not going to happen. It is going to be a long journey, but we must keep trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adg_andy
Should I have paid LTT in all the states and claimed refund in the new state? Please give a correct order / flowchart of what I should have done, keeping practicality in view and also that I do not have an endless supply of money.
Please note, no law in India would be helpful/beneficial to each and every citizen. There would be people who would be inconvenienced with the law. The most practical thing for you would be to factor the life time tax when you calculate the relocation costs (and perhaps ask the company who frequently transferred you to bear the costs). I am sure you would have taken the decision to take such frequent transfers based on some criteria (better pay, close to home town, or better career prospects etc.). So the legal aspects also can be considered am I, right? Do you think the states should all lose on their tax revenues, because you as an individual preferred (for what ever reason) to move across the country, in quick succession? To sum it up; when taking decisions just don't take it based on the assumption that others (including state governments) would just allow you to do as you please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atnyia
Are you saying that RTO is doing extortion from floating public?
Not an extortion if proper "tax paid" receipts are issued to the violators (be it floating or static) .

Quote:
Floating public also stays in the those apartments. They don't live on the road/hotel. I said about ascertaining the ownership and out of station vehicle.
If you wanted a notice to be sent by KA RTO to check the ownership of the vehicle, it would be impractical. The vehicle is any way not registered in KA, and the other state RTO can only give the address using which the vehicle was registered there. For example if a person owns a KL09 vehicle, what would KA RTO gain by contacting Palakkad RTO, in Kerala? They will just say Mr. abc owns it, and he as per our records stays in abc address (in Kerala). KA RTO is concerned with the presence of that vehicle in KA roads. So the owner/driver having the possession of the vehicle is the easiest person to give that information. If caught on the road the owner/driver can be asked to furnish information (or else the vehicle gets seized). In an apartment complex, RTO can only use unofficial channels to get that information. And if that does not work out, catch such vehicles when they pop out of the apartment buildings.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:38   #1657
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

In 2001 when I was working for a BPO in Bangalore, I had my TN registered Bike. Cops caught me once late night and was asked why I had not re-registered the bike. Apologised to them, not fined. Immediately paid LTT. Did not re-register. Subsequently, the cops didn't harass me as I had paid my LTT.

2003 - Bought my car in Bangalore. Lived with it in Bangalore for a few months, Chennai for a year and Goa for 2 years. Nowhere was I asked about the MV tax.

Why did I mention all this - as a person who has been riding/driving for over 20 years and as a member of this distinguished community, the last few pages have been an interesting read. What probably started of as a rant/rave of what is happening in Karnataka by the RTO, seems to have turned into an argument between members.

Yes, I Know that I am going to get a few brickbats over the above remark. But, can we all take a moment to step back and understand what is being said rather than taking offence at everything that is being said.

Yes - What the Government of Karnataka has done is morally wrong but legally right.

No - We cant do anything about it, unless we take recourse to the legal system, which a few members are doing.

No - I am not in Karnataka / Bangalore now.

Yes - I have worked across India and have travelled to a few states along with my car.

No - I have not paid taxes in any of the other states.

A smiler action is the crackdown of Pondicherry registered vehicles in TN. If you have a Pondy Licence, you are let go else you are fined.

Let me ask a simple question - how many of us have voluntarily paid the taxes in our resident state if we have been there for over a year. If the answer is No - why not? Have we even bothered to find out what the state laws say in that case? In all probability - NO!

Finally, once again - can we all step back and find ways and means to rectify this rather than get into a blame game.

Please accept my sincere apologies if I have unintentionally hurt the feeling of any of the members.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:47   #1658
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

I had a KL registered vehicle, which I used in KA around 15 years back. Twice the traffic police caught me and fined me because I did not have the road tax paid. That was enough for me to "learn" that a permanent solution would be to pay the LTT. I paid that, and that was the end of it. I used the vehicle for next 4-5 years. Other people may have thought differently and not paid LTT at all. But with now the extensive drive going on, tax dodgers want to have a slightly simpler (for them) provision to pay the tax.
So, by your own definition, were you a tax dodger for the period when you did not pay the road tax? You have clearly stated that you did not voluntarily pay the LTT when you moved in to Karnataka and it took you two police challans to "learn" that you have to pay LTT.

Even-tough our views are at two ends, I had respect for you thinking that you have followed the law and is asking every one else to do the same, but now I released that you were also not different and it was the police challans which made you think about paying the tax.

Since you had the luxury of having two challans (and not having impounded your vehicle or documents and made to pay the tax at the instance when got caught) and then going home, think about it, arrange the money and pay the tax - do you think it is too much to ask for the same luxury for others now?


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Last edited by theexperthand : 24th June 2015 at 13:49.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:58   #1659
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
.....when it comes to numbers, such information is not readily available.....
Exactly. Lack of transparency is our biggest challenge. Why should anybody have to jump through hoops to find out information that should be in the public domain to begin with? We pay the taxes, so it's only reasonable that we're able to see where it's being spent, transparently. RTI is probably one of the few good things the Indian citizen has, though that's also not always free from hassle.


Quote:
The constitution itself is a man made document, with a clear process defined to make amendments to it. But for that a large part of the Indian society have to be politically active. And that does not mean taking out strikes, or holding harthals/bandhs etc. But be active enough (by voting etc) to influence the political class.
Isn't that the whole point of electing a government in a democracy? "For the people, by the people, of the people"? Since not every citizen can be a law-maker, we choose from amongst ourselves representatives who will debate/write/implement those laws on our behalf, for our collective benefit and progress. Sad and extremely unfortunate that our democracy seems to stop at "by the people" in most cases.

If citizens have to litigate and fight their own representatives for everything, doesn't that negate the point of having a representative govt. at all?

Quote:
The most practical thing for you would be to factor the life time tax when you calculate the relocation costs (and perhaps ask the company who frequently transferred you to bear the costs)
It's not just about the individual being inconvenienced, moving the cost to someone else doesn't negate it. Someone is still paying road tax for a vehicle in state(s) whose infrastructure is not being used in return.

Quote:
If we expect our political classes, bureaucrats etc. to turn Raja Harishchandra over-night and come up with laws which makes every one happy (with no responsibility from our side), that is just not going to happen. It is going to be a long journey, but we must keep trying.
Why not? Why is it wrong to expect our elected representatives to do their jobs? Don't all of us do the jobs we draw our paychecks from? Then why not them?
Are we just supposed to live with the assumption that the bureaucracy will always be corrupt and inefficient, and litigation is our only recourse for everything?

You keep assuming that everyone wants laws that make them 'happy' individually, while it's very clear that the entire debate is centered around taxation being 'fair'.

Fair taxation, not tax-free. Spot the difference?

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 24th June 2015 at 14:08.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:59   #1660
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
So, by your own definition, were you a tax dodger for the period when you did not pay the road tax? You have clearly stated that you did not voluntarily pay the LTT when you moved in to Karnataka and it took you two police challans to "learn" that you have to pay LTT.
I did not know the law of the land then. And I learnt it after I got fined for that offence. I did not know how to make the payment, I approached a local driving school who helped me with the procedure. I did not try to make an excuse that "I did not know the rules in KA, and continued to dodge it". The moment I know I was at fault, I did not make any excuse but paid up. But if it makes you happy to label me as a tax dodger for a period of 2 odd months, no problems with that. At least I did not cook up excuses of legal hassles, constitutional rights etc and tried to evade the law. I have been on the right side of the law for 178 odd months on the LTT front, and I am happy with that. So who is better, a tax dodger for 2 months who realised his mistake, made the payments, or a tax dodger who was given much more time than that and still did not pay up??

Quote:
Since you had the luxury of having two challans (and not having impounded your vehicle or documents and made to pay the tax at the instance when got caught) and then going home, think about it, arrange the money and pay the tax - do you think it is too much to ask for the same luxury for others now?
The challans were issued by the traffic police and not the RTO. Secondly when this happened, the 11 month rule was in place. I could have still made an excuse that I would think about it later. But then better sense prevailed as I jolly well knew I would be in Bangalore for many more years to came. Made the payment promptly as well. And this was when I was on my first job, and the tax was at least 20-25% of my salary.

So rest assured, if this happened today even I would have faced the same situation. But today I have better experience and would not even bother to get into such troubles. I find it very bad to make excuse when I am obviously found breaking a law/rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
Why should anybody have to jump through hoops to find out information that should be in the public domain to begin with?
The RTO ideally has no reason to put up the information which I have asked for. They may be recording the statistics for their internal consumption, and generally why should a common man even want that information?

Quote:
Since not every citizen can be a law-maker, we choose from amongst ourselves representatives who will debate/write/implement those laws on our behalf, for our collective benefit and progress
There lies a fundamental problem here. I have highlighted the "our" aspect. Now take the example of this motor vehicle taxation amendment act. It is a local state law, so ideally Karnataka legislature would not be really bothered about how it may effect say people from KL or TN. Why should they do that? Their job is to ensure that KA gets governed and they have enough funds to run their various schemes. Now thinking from the side of the Kannadiga common man, he is not at all inconvenienced with this amendment. He any ways pay the LTT based on the rate slabs established by the state. The "our" part, if it has to be thought at the national level, then we can insist that any law which the central government makes has to be convenient to majority of the common people all across India. The Road Transport Safety bill, is ideally one such law draft.

Quote:
It's not just about the individual being inconvenienced, moving the cost to someone else doesn't negate it. Someone is still paying road tax for a vehicle in state(s) whose infrastructure is not being used in return.
In the above case, a person who gets transferred frequently (by a company) also should take this up with company. Why should a state forego its tax revenue because a private company frequently transfers people and there are also people willing to be transferred multiple times? The tax refund scheme has to be simplified and I agree with you. But please note, this is not a KA specific issue. Every state has it, and just because of that KA cannot be asked to stop collecting LTT.

Last edited by sachinpk : 24th June 2015 at 14:13.
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Old 24th June 2015, 14:02   #1661
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
My gut feeling is that non-KA vehicle owners for quite some time have not even used the 11 month rule to get the registration changed and LTT paid. They just ignored it, and enforcement was also lax. I also now understand that a few people have also paid LTT (even without strong enforcement). With the RTI, I am trying to get data on voluntary LTT payment in the year 2013 (before amendment), voluntary and coerced (by RTO spot checks) payments of LTT in the year 2014, and till date in the year 2015. My idea is to check if even without the tax amendment, and stronger enforcement non-KA vehicle owners had made their LTT payments promptly. Because if they had paid promptly, a strong enforcement is not even required. I have filed the RTI yesterday and let me see what response I get.
Let us hope you do get the actual numbers in hand so that this discussion has some direction.

I moved from Gurgaon to Bangalore with my then 2 year old Ritz in November 2012. Knowing the level of enforcement in Bangalore, I had come with all the required documents as mentioned in the official website of the Karnataka transport department. I approached the Koramangala RTO with all these documents and was turned away stating they need more documents. After showing the staff-members a print-out from the official website, they suddenly started acting as if they don't understand English and only speak Kannada.

I took the hint, went to an RTO agent on the ground floor of the same building and within 2 days, I was able to pay the tax and get a receipt (without submitting any other documents than I already had). The agent gave me a break-up of the LTT, his fees and the bribe which needs to be paid to the RTO. I had also applied for a re-registration as I was planning to stay for long-term in KA.

The rule-book says that after sending request for confirmation from Gurgaon RTO 3 times, if Koramangala RTO did not receive an acknowledgement, they had to grant me a KA registration number - no questions asked. Still, they made me follow-up n number of times for over six months, and even on the day I had to get my RC (so-called Smart Card - with no chip inside), the RTO (a lady then), was negotiating for another 2000/- bribe.

I lived in Bangalore for 2 years and realised that it was not exactly the city I had seen a few years ago. Hence, I moved out at the first opportunity I got and swear never to go back even at 'gun-point'.

My point is, there ARE people who follow all the rules and laws. The problem is, the way in which the RTO officials seem to work and how corrupt they are (at least used to be). It is also how they treat non-Kannada speaking people.

Now, the car is registered in my father-in-law's name (since I left India) and he is trying to get it re-registered in KL. Let us see what happens to the LTT refund from KA RTO. My gut feeling says, I will get nothing from them, inspite of having used KA 'roads' for 2 years and paying tax for the life-time of the vehicle.

Just want to add that I was neither caught, nor challaned before I went and 'tried' to pay the LTT.

Last edited by Viju : 24th June 2015 at 14:05.
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Old 24th June 2015, 16:18   #1662
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
And the best part is that there are few (or any) state in India which now allows a one-year road tax payment scheme. It is LTT all through out. So why should Karnataka be singled out and given titles, as if every other state is perfect?
This part is most amusing. First of all, lets consider (just hypothetically) that you are right and KA is being 'singled out'. Can you shed more light on this. Who and why are singling out Karnataka? There ought to be some motive for 'singling out' someone. That is as jingoistic as it gets. CM/Mayor's personal invitation, gun on a head, why Karantaka only. Dude, this el chepo stuff. Tax dodging is bad but the discussion is on if this is really a valid 'tax'. These people have already paid tax once and this is an anomaly of our structure. Methods are invalid anyway.

Secondly, still considering that KA is being 'singled out', two wrongs can't make a right. You are unaware that you are halfway agreeing that there is some problem here but only only Karnataka is being singled out presumably by some foreign (read rest of states in Union of India) conspiracy.

The above two points address your morally corrupt argument.

Third and most importantly, your argument is wrong. There is no parallel to the things happening and their scale in Karnataka in the whole country. There are bigger metros and more out of state vehicles in those metros. Show me one example where this LTT collection is being so organized, ruthless. Who pays these touts and how?

Quote:
Not an extortion if proper "tax paid" receipts are issued to the violators (be it floating or static) .
Again, you are distorting this thing. Why floating public should pay LTT? Why it is not flexible? That was the argument. From floating public's point of view, this is an extortion as they are repaying a tax without a fair chance of recovery.

Quote:
If you wanted a notice to be sent by KA RTO to check the ownership of the vehicle, it would be impractical.
Agreed. This is rampant here too. People buy in their relatives names who has been living out of state. But, that still doesn't justify treating everyone with the same stick. Why do income tax, VAT have slabs? Why is it not maximum on everything? There is simply no sense of measure here. Archaic law. Fix it.

IMHO, appropriate policies are the best way to address these issues. Bad policies (like absence of GST) encourage corruption and even state level terrorism (TADA, this sham amendment, ASFPA etc).
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Old 24th June 2015, 16:58   #1663
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia
CM/Mayor's personal invitation, gun on a head, why Karantaka only. Dude, this el chepo stuff.
The point on CM/Mayor's personal invitation - it is simple. A person today migrating to Karnataka is doing it out of his own free will. The state is not forcing any one to come or go out of KA. Why he chose to come to KA, variety of reasons which only he can decide.
Gun on head - again the state is not forcing any one to come here. Private companies, job demands etc. may be there. But state cannot be held responsible for that.
Why Karnataka - people want Karnataka to bring back the yearly payment of road taxes option. Some thing which other states don't even think of having.

So I am yet to get what this "el chepo" stuff you are making up. But all I can say is that Karantaka government can formulate its own revenue policies, enforce such policies fully utilising (and not byepassing or ignoring) the rights given by the country's laws.

Quote:
Tax dodging is bad but the discussion is on if this is really a valid 'tax'. These people have already paid tax once and this is an anomaly of our structure
It is a valid tax, or else the courts would have thrown it away by now. Did that happen?? And again like a broken record I am saying that life time tax paid in KL, is different from the life time tax paid in KA. That is how the law currently works in the country. You want to change this law, well I am all in favour of it (and thus support the new bill which is supposed to supersede the 1988 MV Act). But expecting states to suspend the motor vehicle tax collection will just not work at all.

Quote:
You are unaware that you are halfway agreeing that there is some problem here but only only Karnataka is being singled out presumably by some foreign (read rest of states in Union of India) conspiracy
I can accept the claim that life time tax refunds are a problem all across the country, but that does not negate any state's right to collect life time tax. None of the states (except one) seems to have issues with Karnataka on the LTT issue, it is only people from those states now residing in Karnataka have an issue. The state which had taken exception of this rule was KL, partly due to the people forcing the state government to make noise. But even when this issue was raised by KL, KA politely told KL folks to mind their own business. I see no conspiracy happening between states of Indian union. All I see is an attempt (not conspiracy) to dodge Karnataka Motor Vehicle tax by a group of people.

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Show me one example where this LTT collection is being so organized, ruthless.
Every state generally focuses on their revenue targets in a different way. So we cannot pick and choose and demand that x state should actually follow y state's model in collecting revenue (through tax). Some states may be making crores through land deals, or business deals (and its associated registration costs). They may just ignore vehicle life time tax. Kerala is generating good amount of money by simple traffic law enforcement (where there are unofficial targets, withs special focus on drunken driving). Where as Karnataka has realised that there exists a large number of non-KA vehicles in its cities, which ideally can pay up the life time taxes.

Quote:
Why floating public should pay LTT? Why it is not flexible? That was the argument.
The floating public should pay life time tax, if they plan to use the vehicle for more than 30 days in Karnataka. Because the state has determined that any body who stays for more than that period is ideally no more a "floating public". Remember, people now demanding flexibility started asking for that once RTO became as you said it "ruthless".

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IMHO, appropriate policies are the best way to address these issues. Bad policies (like absence of GST) encourage corruption and even state level terrorism (TADA, this sham amendment, ASFPA etc).
Think about it - earlier bad polices are now at least getting corrected. GST is supposed to be rolled out in 2016, but again it requires constitutional amendments. Even motor vehicle laws are planned for amendment. If our political classes can keep aside politics aside, these would easily become the act. TADA and AFSPA are are not state specific acts. They were all pan-India laws, which has all India validity, and these strict acts were brought in for a purpose (to curb terrorism).

So all I am saying is that pay the tax dues on time, but in the same time also work to minimise the difficulties. But no government would park its tax collection schemes till every issue is ironed out, every one is happy (and they confirm they are happy) and then start with the taxation. It is more of an ongoing process.
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Old 24th June 2015, 18:48   #1664
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

There are treaties between countries, which help people in avoiding paying tax twice on same income. And, you pay tax only once (do not have to claim refund after paying tax)

But, for LTT, RTO of states within same country are not able to come up with a citizen friendly tax transfer/sharing scheme between states for a vehicle being used across states. Also, the lack of communication/coordination has made it impossible to claim refund of LTT even after a vehicle is legally re-registered with all formalities completed.

On a different note, for any case, I believe the onus is on plaintiff to prove the case and not on defendant to prove innocence. However it seems Karnataka RTO is interested in implementation of law in letter and not in spirit - especially putting onus on vehicle owners to prove they have not stayed in Karnataka for more than month, and also disregarding valid proofs like toll receipts. Karnataka RTO is getting away because a single citizen cannot have time, energy and resources to fight and prove his innocence, and paying LTT is easier compared to fighting a long battle over years .

This is plain and simple anti-citizen policy by RTO. Similar in some ways to Skoda’s anti-customer ways (implementing and following rules by letter – not in spirit - to defy customers). Karnataka RTO is getting away with it, because of greed shown by legislator assembly in passing such anti-citizen laws. It will take long fight by people like Waseem, but I am sure truth will prevail.

Though I respect the perseverance and persistence shown by our champion of Ka RTO cause, I don’t think he believes in fairness of law, and ultimately that laws should be for benefit of citizens and not for harassment.

Regards,
JLS
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Old 24th June 2015, 20:49   #1665
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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