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Old 14th July 2014, 12:29   #571
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I think underlying problem is the exorbitant road tax in Bangalore and no matching infrastructure to go with it. If they lower the road tax it will stop this harassment and not make the people who have bought cars in Bangalore feel cheated if someone comes with a car registered from outside. I don't feel the same way in Delhi if I see any other states car as whatever road tax we paid was reasonable so I have no reason to be upset at anyone else.
Its nothing to do with exhorbiant tax. Its more to do with the inconvenience.
Lets see how other federal countries do it.

There is no "lifetime tax". You pay tax every year in the state you reside. Simple. No fuss.
Here you pay lifetime tax.
After 5 years you move out and get "nothing" for your old car, and then new state, again, exhorbiant tax.

not only this, if you change jobs frequently, its a killer. The system is geared to facilitate touts.

Now the great KA govt has come and actually modified the MVA act to increase its tax kitty. This is called TAX Terrorism.
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Old 14th July 2014, 12:35   #572
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by shramik
Maks a mockery of India as a Federal State. You pay "lifetime" tax she you buy a car in one state, shift to another state & pay "life time" tax all over again, and no one talks of a refund in the state you bought the car in the first place !!!! I wonder why no one has filed a PIL against this ? All we ask is a proper system of refunding paid tax in the state of purchase !!!!
The PIL would not work as there exists a system for this. Life time taxes paid in a state can be claimed back. The problem is that the process is too cumbersome. Suppose I decide to call it a day at Bangalore and move to Kerala, I need to approach the Bangalore based RTO to get the "No objection Certificate". And also with that they are also supposed to a prorated calculation and give my balance Tax as a refund. There is an exact formula for calculating the Tax refunds. Once I get these in hand, I need to approach my Kerala based RTO to get a new RC Book, new vehicle # etc. And I feel if you have a vehicle loan it becomes even more messier. Because the bank also needs to be informed.

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Old 14th July 2014, 13:48   #573
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Partly, yes. People buying their cars don't say: "I don't want to pay the tax here because the roads are bad. So let me go and buy from Tamil Nadu, where roads are good". Regardless of whether roads are good in Bangalore, people would tend to register cars where they find it cheaper.
Not all people do that. People who do that to deliberately save money will have to pay the price.

If you notice, a good % of people just bring whatever car they were using earlier. People do that because relocation costs a lot of money, plus they might need a vehicle right away. This is perhaps the reason why the Central government proposed that vehicles older than 2 years need not be taxed again - because they are not registered outside the state for the purpose of saving money.

The Karnataka RTO is trying to milk money from these vulnerable population. If the government asks them to pay annual tax, I am sure that the majority would not mind that. But asking them to pay a hefty amount immediately after moving in to the state is a bit too much.
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Old 14th July 2014, 14:30   #574
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavu75
But from last few months BTP/RTO people are very aggressive on punishing the outstation vehicles in name of this modified law. Sometimes even i saw, instead of managing the heavy traffic at some particular points they are interested in only stopping these vehicle
RTOs are generally not involved in regulating traffic. That is the job of the Traffic Police. And the excuse of Let some one else do 1,2,3..things before they charge me for an offence is an out dated one. No govt. agency would listen to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite
The non-KA people are mostly middle class service based people, working hard to earn a living here and trying hard to adjust to a new environment. They have their own personal and professional issues to take care of, and on top of that when rules like these make them feel harassed and fearful of taking there vehicles out on road, the frustrations do build up.
I humbly disagree. Every body is working hard to better their lives. When a person moves to a new place they should also have a plan to adjust with that place. Even the RTO doing his work would have personal and professional issues. This a rule which the elected representatives of Karnataka have passed in the state legislature. Similar problems may be faced by people who are new to Mumbai, Delhi or for that matter any other place in India. It is for these people to get adjusted to the new place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Slow
But what about the rule that says that cops can not stop any vehicle unless they have commented an offence? And only then are they allowed to check for documents and other papers.
These are not traffic police men, but folks from the RTO (Regional Transport Authority).
Quote:
Originally Posted by binand
says that a lady driving an MP-registered car was claiming to be politically connected in Madhya Pradesh; and that the RTO officials who dared to stop her will soon get to know her reach.
I shall wait for that news . Because MP is having a BJP government while Karnataka it is the Congress holding the fort. Don't know if the different political climates would help the woman in this case. In worst case scenario the local RTO folks can use the regional card (I am doing my duty for my state, and an out-sider who just came in because of oppurtunities is now trying to act smart-logic).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen
You can keep a photocopy of the license. You need to show the original again if there's a recorded complain.
As per MV Act, the driving license needs to be carried in original. The link from Bangalore Traffic Police states that even other documents (like RC) have to be carried in original. From BTP web site
Quote:
Originally Posted by fundagenie
is it possible for RTO or police to seize a vehicle or confiscate the original documents as long as there is no criminal case on the driver or the vehicle as such like say
It is possible. The lady does not have any original documents, then issuing a notice to her is meaning less. She still has the vehicle and original documents with her, she would just flee. So only thing "original" the RTO can seize is the vehicle itself .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajith
I have paid my first KA LTT in 1997 when i was caught/seized with a KL, 85 model Amby and paid 12000
In 1997 I got my father's scooter transferred to Bangalore. And I did pay the road tax without changing the license etc. A Driving school chap did the paper work. As per him the whole incident was like the RTO had caught me on the road when driving the scooter. I being a rich man had Rs.5000/- odd in my wallet, I paid up on the spot. And they issued a receipt. So only thing I had to do was to show this tax-paid receipt when any BTP or RTO folks stopped my vehicle.
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Old 14th July 2014, 15:05   #575
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
When a person moves to a new place they should also have a plan to adjust with that place. [...] It is for these people to get adjusted to the new place.
There is an expectation of reasonable grace period to complete such adjustment. The question is whether 1 month is reasonable, or 1 year, or something in between?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Because MP is having a BJP government while Karnataka it is the Congress holding the fort. Don't know if the different political climates would help the woman in this case.
Apologies, I used the wrong word ("political") - it should have been "administrative". Apparently the lady had claimed to be related to (daughter of?) a senior IAS officer of MP.
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Old 14th July 2014, 15:06   #576
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
Not all people do that. People who do that to deliberately save money will have to pay the price.

If you notice, a good % of people just bring whatever car they were using earlier. People do that because relocation costs a lot of money, plus they might need a vehicle right away. This is perhaps the reason why the Central government proposed that vehicles older than 2 years need not be taxed again - because they are not registered outside the state for the purpose of saving money.

The Karnataka RTO is trying to milk money from these vulnerable population. If the government asks them to pay annual tax, I am sure that the majority would not mind that. But asking them to pay a hefty amount immediately after moving in to the state is a bit too much.
Did you read my whole post? Or the urge to hit the reply button was too huge that you chose to do that midway through my post? Is what you wrote here hugely different than what I wrote in the "ps" of my post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Partly, yes. People buying their cars don't say: "I don't want to pay the tax here because the roads are bad. So let me go and buy from Tamil Nadu, where roads are good". Regardless of whether roads are good in Bangalore, people would tend to register cars where they find it cheaper.

ps: Am not forgetting the fact that the majority of them getting harassed here is the innocent people who come here as part of their jobs.
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Old 14th July 2014, 15:32   #577
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by binand View Post

Apologies, I used the wrong word ("political") - it should have been "administrative". Apparently the lady had claimed to be related to (daughter of?) a senior IAS officer of MP.
Over here, first thing people say is "Do you know who I am?"

Happened to me once so I said "Who?" and they shut up
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Old 14th July 2014, 16:33   #578
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by binaiks View Post
Not all people do that. People who do that to deliberately save money will have to pay the price.

If you notice, a good % of people just bring whatever car they were using earlier. People do that because relocation costs a lot of money, plus they might need a vehicle right away. This is perhaps the reason why the Central government proposed that vehicles older than 2 years need not be taxed again - because they are not registered outside the state for the purpose of saving money.

The Karnataka RTO is trying to milk money from these vulnerable population. If the government asks them to pay annual tax, I am sure that the majority would not mind that. But asking them to pay a hefty amount immediately after moving in to the state is a bit too much.
I would like to put down some of my thoughts on this though I dont want to turn it into any verbal duel....

Most of the migrant population in bangalore are middle class professionals who would have bought a car with his/her hard earned money and some amount of loan. This is the same people who haggle for maximum discounts, floor mats, seat covers, lower insurance deals etc with the dealer at the time of purchasing the car. So if these people had an option to save some more money by paying lesser road tax, why should they not go for it. End of the day these higher road taxes would only mean a higher bank loan and subsequently a higher emi and more interests. If karnataka had a lower road tax than the other states wouldnt most of the migrant locals buy from here to save some money. So why cant karnataka have a lower road tax in par with the other states. Then most of these deliberate buyers would have bought their cars from karnataka and ensured more taxes to the state treasury.

Also I still dont know what is the justification for such high road taxes here. Some time back a local friend reasoned that high road taxes was meant to discourage people from buying automobiles and thereby ensure less traffic and lower pollution in bangalore. Cmooooooooooon.....If that is the case, I think that plan has flopped big time. India is a growing economy and karnataka or bangalore is a booming place. Govts cant discourage people from living a good life. Instead they should be having future plans to accommodate such changing situations without stressing out the people. Having better infrastructure itself would reduce traffic and maybe provide ways to tackle pollution problems. And its not the case here which is pretty evident.

Another reason people buy cars from their home states is because they would have plans to relocate back after a few years in bangalore. With a KA registered vehicle, they should either sell it at that time and incur some loses OR get a NOC from the karnataka RTO, initiate the refund and take the car back to their home state. And keep waiting for a refund which in most cases never come. In short, more of their hard earned money again goes down the drain in the name of multiple state LTT's.

Just to sum it up, where ever one buys a car in India, the buyer pays the LTT at the time and the law allows the car to be legally driven all across the country. The person might stay in one part of the country for some years and move to some other. If our constitution doesnt restrict movement of people and their other movable assets within the country, why make it hard just for the vehicles, which is also part of that persons asset. Govts should also remember that the state also makes money from these outstation vehicles through fuel taxes, servicing and repairing costs etc. If really necessary a states road networks could be tolled roads for outstation vehicles during short stays with payments collected at the state check posts. And for longer stay periods the annual tax can be collected. That way any loss incurred by the state due to the LTT will be covered to a good extent. And people would not mind paying it just like when using toll roads or a malls parking etc.

Dint expect it to turn into such a long post.

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Old 14th July 2014, 16:49   #579
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by fundagenie View Post
Also I still dont know what is the justification for such high road taxes here. Some time back a local friend reasoned that high road taxes was meant to discourage people from buying automobiles and thereby ensure less traffic and lower pollution in bangalore. Cmooooooooooon.....If that is the case, I think that plan has flopped big time. India is a growing economy and karnataka or bangalore is a booming place. Govts cant discourage people from living a good life. Instead they should be having future plans to accommodate such changing situations without stressing out the people. Having better infrastructure itself would reduce traffic and maybe provide ways to tackle pollution problems. And its not the case here which is pretty evident.
All over the world more affluent cities have higher taxes. The assumption is that affluent cities have a population that is more affluent and that they can afford to pay more. In absolute terms of money, we make Ambani pay more not because he deserve to pay more, but just that he can afford to pay more. This kind of taxing is a more socialistic trait, but even capitalistic economies can't stay away from this method... because it works. And nobody yet has invented a better method.

ps: It is a different matter than the population that is taxed more does not get an equivalent worth in return, but the law of diminishing returns is there for us to content with.
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Old 14th July 2014, 17:27   #580
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by fundagenie View Post
End of the day these higher road taxes would only mean a higher bank loan and subsequently a higher emi and more interests.
Loan, if I am not mistaken, is computed based on the ex-showroom price of the vehicle and not the on-road price (the latter is the one that includes registration costs and LTT).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fundagenie View Post
If karnataka had a lower road tax than the other states wouldnt most of the migrant locals buy from here to save some money. So why cant karnataka have a lower road tax in par with the other states.
The problem is Pondicherry, where the tax is rock-bottom (fixed Rs. 1L for vehicles > 20L - ref: http://transport.puducherry.gov.in/p...taxStr2012.pdf). I don't think any of KA/TN/KL/(AP/TS) can match that. So the Audis and the BMWs of Bangalore and Chennai more often than not sport PY registrations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fundagenie View Post
If our constitution doesnt restrict movement of people and their other movable assets within the country, why make it hard just for the vehicles, which is also part of that persons asset.
The constitution does allow governments (state and union) to impose reasonable restrictions on most fundamental rights. The restriction of paying LTT for stays exceeding 1 year was so far deemed as reasonable. Now KA government has made this period to 1 month. The debate is whether this new threshold is reasonable or not.
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Old 14th July 2014, 22:10   #581
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by fundagenie View Post
I would like to put down some of my thoughts on this though I dont want to turn it into any verbal duel....

FundaG
Some of my thoughts in the earlier post are based on my understanding. Need not be correct. Hence correct me where I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
All over the world more affluent cities have higher taxes. The assumption is that affluent cities have a population that is more affluent and that they can afford to pay more. In absolute terms of money, we make Ambani pay more not because he deserve to pay more, but just that he can afford to pay more. This kind of taxing is a more socialistic trait, but even capitalistic economies can't stay away from this method... because it works. And nobody yet has invented a better method.

ps: It is a different matter than the population that is taxed more does not get an equivalent worth in return, but the law of diminishing returns is there for us to content with.
I can understand your reasoning on higher taxes in affluent cities. But cant see how it figures out with bangalore as such. Cos this is state taxes. And cant say Karnataka is more affluent than its neighbouring states TN or Kerala. On a city level also bangalore is not metro like chennai. If it is IT crowd that is being considered as the affluent kind by the govt then the same kind exists in chennai as well as trivandrum and cochin. And yet the road taxes are lower there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by binand View Post
Loan, if I am not mistaken, is computed based on the ex-showroom price of the vehicle and not the on-road price (the latter is the one that includes registration costs and LTT).
What I meant was lets say you want to buy a car with on road price of 10L and have 4L in hand. With higher road tax, a higher percentage of the cash in hand goes for the LTT. Which means you need to avail a higher loan to meet the balance amount. Hope that clarifies the point.

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Old 14th July 2014, 23:56   #582
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

@fundagenie: the middle class professional is usually a stickler for rules. He may bargain for freebies from the dealer, but he will not get a fake address in a different state just to save money, even if it is a few lakhs. Remember he pays income tax diligently too. No black money for him.
Often he prefers to register the car in his hometown as that is the only place where he has an address proof. Which is mandatory for registration. I now face a similar problem. In 2010, when I was in Tirunelveli, I bought a ford Figo but had to register it in my wife's name as I did not have an address proof. Now on coming to Bangalore, I need to buy the car from my wife to register it here as she does not have an address proof here. So in addition to paying a hefty tax I'm forced to become the second owner of my own car.
I feel that road tax should become part of the car's MRP. Along with the hundreds of other taxes we pay when we buy a new car, let them add another one and be done with it.
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Old 15th July 2014, 08:19   #583
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@fundagenie: the middle class professional is usually a stickler for rules. He may bargain for freebies from the dealer, but he will not get a fake address in a different state just to save money, even if it is a few lakhs. Remember he pays income tax diligently too. No black money for him.
My observation is quite the opposite. We don't pay income tax "diligently", we pay it because we have no choice in the matter - the decision to pay or not pay has been taken away from us; now all our income is taxed at source. We don't have any avenues of generating black money left (except perhaps property deals and foreign postings), so we don't. Just walk into a small consumer electronics store and see how many people use cash to avoid paying VAT.

Malayala Manorama some time back ran a feature on the modern middle-class Keralite (not the average Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz owner) gaming the road tax system by creating false address proof (easiset apparently is a premium paid receipt) in Mahe, to register their Marutis and Hyundais.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
Now on coming to Bangalore, I need to buy the car from my wife to register it here as she does not have an address proof here. So in addition to paying a hefty tax I'm forced to become the second owner of my own car.
Someone's been taking you for a ride. The husband's address proof is good enough for the wife as well. You might be asked to prove the husband-wife relationship; I make do with the "Spouse" entry in our passports (but bank passbooks showing the wife as the nominee also works well).

Last edited by binand : 15th July 2014 at 08:27.
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Old 15th July 2014, 09:34   #584
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
...Malayala Manorama some time back ran a feature on the modern middle-class Keralite (not the average Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz owner) gaming the road tax system by creating false address proof (easiset apparently is a premium paid receipt) in Mahe, to register their Marutis and Hyundais.
Slightly OT. I know a person who wanted to get a particular registration number (KL-9-xxxxxxx), but couldn't, because his area falls under a different Sub-RTO (KL-49/KL-50). He walked into one of the revenue offices in the district HQ, and he was out with a residency certificate that mentioned his address as one that comes under the jurisdiction of the KL-9 RTO (and he paid for the fancy number of his choice at the RTO). If there's some very minimal political clout added to this, this person might've got it done with a couple of phone calls. It's so simple to "create" proof of identity/residency in our country.
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Old 15th July 2014, 09:49   #585
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by fundagenie
If karnataka had a lower road tax than the other states wouldnt most of the migrant locals buy from here to save some money. So why cant karnataka have a lower road tax in par with the other states. Then most of these deliberate buyers would have bought their cars from karnataka and ensured more taxes to the state treasury.
Life does not work that way my friend. Karnataka Govt. has the rights to decide the road taxes to be paid in their state. So we cannot compare with other states and say Karnataka has to reduce road taxes to help non-state vehicle owners. So if people do register vehicles in other states and use the vehicle in Karnataka, then Karnataka authorites have every right to enforce their laws here and get their tax dues. We can cry foul, but the only option would be to move to a different place.

Quote:
India is a growing economy and karnataka or bangalore is a booming place. Govts cant discourage people from living a good life.
I have bolded a part in your statement, and perhaps that is the reason why the road taxes are higher as well. Even Karnataka authorities know that their place is booming, so people would be ready to buy things at a premium. So road taxes also have been increased, because the state knows that they can generate more money. Today more than Bangalore wanting more people, the young people want to be in Bangalore - perhaps hoping for a good job and better life.

Karnataka was also once known for the tourist spots (Mysore, Vrindavan Gardens and all). Tourist vehicles from other states used to regularly complain that entry taxes to the state were really high. And these taxes were on a per seat basis. But the state just ignored that and collected the road tax. A classic case of "Take it or leave it".

Only way perhaps is for the large migrant population in Bangalore to become a major "vote bank". And then use the voting powers to work out a deal with politicians. I have seen small examples of this in work - mainly to solve water problems etc.
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