Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th July 2014, 17:23   #1006
BHPian
 
prakash_ajp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 493
Thanked: 715 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
can you do that? You need to submit a proof of residence in that state. Where will you bring one from if you do not reside in that state? RTO folks will say anything to continue their loot.
It's not that difficult, is it? I live in the bordering Tamilnadu town Hosur, and most people who live here, get a KA registration. In most cases, the vehicle dealer themselves will organize the address proof, esp. in a place like Pondicherry.
prakash_ajp is offline  
Old 26th July 2014, 17:51   #1007
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,964
Thanked: 1,424 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
It is unfair, but that is how the system works. In law enforcement, people do get troubled. If they could invent a device which they can point at any car, and automatically find out a violator, they would. Currently, there is no other way they could find a violator from scores of others, other than roadside checks.
That most definitely is not how systems are supposed to work. If "in law enforcement, people do get troubled" then what is the point of law enforcement? The purpose of law enforcement is to make sure people are not troubled. Here, what we see is that the law enforcement types are themselves becoming the source of trouble.

And what do you mean they need to "invent a device"? It is already there - called a Database. What exactly prevents them from looking at the database at their disposal to see if a given vehicle has paid tax or not? The law demands vehicles display a unique registration mark on the outside for a reason, why don't they use that facility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
If you have a valid address in Bangalore, you are a resident, irrespective of whether you have a toll receipt with you or not.
That is quite the wrong representation of the law. I myself have valid addresses in three states. That does not mean I am a resident of three states, simultaneously. Addresses and residences are totally independent, it is quite fine to have one while not having the other.

For example, the election commission has to say this (in the context of including a person in the voters' list): "A person shall not be deemed to be ordinarily resident in a constituency on the ground only that he owns, or is in possession of, a dwelling house therein".

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
You become a suspect only if they find clues in your car that you are a violator. Like company stickers, fuel bills, etc. You do not automatically become a suspect when they stop you to check the car. They have the authority to do that. Police stop cars at night to check for DUI, do you feel that some fundamental right has been violated?
"You do not automatically become a suspect when they stop you to check the car" - this is precisely the problem. One is not a suspect, one is not convicted, but one still has to surrender to searches and seizure which do not have any sanction of the law?

Extend this a bit. Do you also agree that the RTO officials have the right to inspect your mobile phone looking for clues that prove you live in Bangalore? Laptop computer? Inside your wallet or your wife's purse? Are they allowed to get into your house checking how long you've been living there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
I support banning of tinted windows. You forgo some liberty for safety. That's how the world works. Even in the most developed of nations.
Quite ironic you say that - considering it was one of the founding fathers of one of the most developed of nations who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
binand is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 26th July 2014, 18:11   #1008
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: bangalore
Posts: 522
Thanked: 462 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by binand View Post
That most definitely is not how systems are supposed to work. If "in law enforcement, people do get troubled" then what is the point of law enforcement? The purpose of law enforcement is to make sure people are not troubled. Here, what we see is that the law enforcement types are themselves becoming the source of trouble.
No, you got it wrong. The little troubles that we bear up is to make sure that we don't end up in bigger troubles. For example, we do not mind the trouble of going through a security check so that we don't end up in a bigger trouble inside the plane.
Quote:
And what do you mean they need to "invent a device"? It is already there - called a Database. What exactly prevents them from looking at the database at their disposal to see if a given vehicle has paid tax or not? The law demands vehicles display a unique registration mark on the outside for a reason, why don't they use that facility?
So, you mean to say, when the RTO spots a vehicle on the road, instead of stopping it first, he has to search the database, and when he finds that he hasn't paid the tax, he has to run behind the vehicle and stop it? Isn't it simpler to stop the vehicle, ask for tax receipt, and if found, let him go?
Quote:
That is quite the wrong representation of the law. I myself have valid addresses in three states. That does not mean I am a resident of three states, simultaneously. Addresses and residences are totally independent, it is quite fine to have one while not having the other.
Your address is where you reside and not where you own property.
Quote:
For example, the election commission has to say this (in the context of including a person in the voters' list): "A person shall not be deemed to be ordinarily resident in a constituency on the ground only that he owns, or is in possession of, a dwelling house therein".
Correct. That's what I said above.
Quote:
"You do not automatically become a suspect when they stop you to check the car" - this is precisely the problem. One is not a suspect, one is not convicted, but one still has to surrender to searches and seizure which do not have any sanction of the law?
It has the sanction of the law. Can you quote the legal provision that prevents it?
Quote:
Extend this a bit. Do you also agree that the RTO officials have the right to inspect your mobile phone looking for clues that prove you live in Bangalore? Laptop computer? Inside your wallet or your wife's purse? Are they allowed to get into your house checking how long you've been living there?
Quote:


Quite ironic you say that - considering it was one of the founding fathers of one of the most developed of nations who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
But do you know that in the same US of A, tinted windows are prohibited in most states?
blacksport is offline  
Old 26th July 2014, 18:36   #1009
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,031
Thanked: 381 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdon View Post
OT : CISF is part of Para-military and under Central Armed Police force not state police force, and they enjoy almost same benefits as army, and yes from the same canteen. No state police wala will be allowed there.
Well no CISF comes under home ministry and CISF does not enjoy army canteen facility.

Secondly CISF , CRPF, ITBP, BSF etc are central police forces and not paramilitary as per definition adopted in 2011.

There are only 2 paramilitary forces in India Assam Rifles and SFF from march 2011 onwards all central policing forces ate excluded from list of Para-military.
amitk26 is online now  
Old 27th July 2014, 09:00   #1010
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,964
Thanked: 1,424 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
No, you got it wrong. The little troubles that we bear up is to make sure that we don't end up in bigger troubles. For example, we do not mind the trouble of going through a security check so that we don't end up in a bigger trouble inside the plane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Quote:
"You do not automatically become a suspect when they stop you to check the car" - this is precisely the problem. One is not a suspect, one is not convicted, but one still has to surrender to searches and seizure which do not have any sanction of the law?
It has the sanction of the law. Can you quote the legal provision that prevents it?
1. The search at the airport is conducted by CISF, which is a police force authorized to conduct searches. RTO is not such an agency.

2. Can you show me the legal provision that allows it? In law, it has to be explicitly allowed. You will find that RTO has power to seize vehicles but not the power to search. They are expected to use the police force in searching (this is in contrast to say, Income Tax department, which has its own investigative agency called the Enforcement Directorate that has the power to search).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
So, you mean to say, when the RTO spots a vehicle on the road, instead of stopping it first, he has to search the database, and when he finds that he hasn't paid the tax, he has to run behind the vehicle and stop it? Isn't it simpler to stop the vehicle, ask for tax receipt, and if found, let him go?
I detailed what the RTO should do - conduct an investigation a priori, and then take action as appropriate. Not blanket stops and seizures. You just ruled it out with the statement "that will never work" without qualifying it; but I agree - for that scheme to work, RTO has to work for it. So much simpler to trample on rights and liberties of the average folks than having to earn your keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Your address is where you reside and not where you own property.
For about 18 months in 2011-12, I was what I call an "aerocommuter", spending 3-5 days every week in Mumbai. I think it is pretty much an even 50-50 split on the number of days I spent in Bangalore and Mumbai in that timeframe. I used to maintain separate apartments and cars in Bangalore and Mumbai. Where was I residing, in that period?

And it is not just me; in that period I met several people who were doing precisely the same thing. Since we all used to end up taking the same flight pairs pally-ness developed on its own.

Also, you did not answer any of my questions that explained why this is such a slippery slope. Will you accept:

- RTO asking to see your mobile phone and checking call/SMS/emails to see if you have overstayed?
- Or them checking boot, personal bags etc.?
- RTO asking to visit your home/place of residence in Bangalore to ascertain how long you have been living here?
- Other government agencies taking a leaf out of the RTO's book; say BESCOM barging into your home to check for power theft?
- What next? What if someone with a grudge reported you and all government agencies swooped down on you without any evidence?

Where do you draw the line? Can you draw that line accurately?

Anyway, to conclude - I have somewhat strong views on this point (civil liberties) and I think you do too; I don't expect what I say here will make you change your views. I will refrain from continuing it in this thread - please take this off to PM if you want to continue.
binand is online now   (7) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 10:40   #1011
BHPian
 
asdon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 950
Thanked: 293 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Whatever is happening is not good for Bangalore's image and to its residents as well. And as a resident of Karnataka(non-kanadiga) and till now a traveler by choice, I feel frustrated seeing problems faced by short term visitors in Karnataka, and a sizable group of people including me are preparing for a legal option, those who are interested to join hands, please PM me your details, including name, cell no & mail id.
asdon is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 12:59   #1012
Senior - BHPian
 
lurker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tura
Posts: 1,308
Thanked: 641 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

the only people who can solve this problem are the politicians (from other states). I again reiterate that it would be expected, at minimum, of all those who are affected by this so-called 'drive' would write letters or petition their respective Chief Ministers/Member of Parliament who would then do what is appropriate. If those who are affected couldn't be ar$ed enough to even type out a letter, then please do not expect any immidiate recuse in this matter.
lurker is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 13:22   #1013
Senior - BHPian
 
humyum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Leicester/Mumbai
Posts: 2,306
Thanked: 2,186 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post

So, you mean to say, when the RTO spots a vehicle on the road, instead of stopping it first, he has to search the database, and when he finds that he hasn't paid the tax, he has to run behind the vehicle and stop it? Isn't it simpler to stop the vehicle, ask for tax receipt, and if found, let him go?
OH YEAH OH YEAH, u want to still live in the 18th century and want to never 'modernize' yourself. When People in UK, USA, Canada etc etc can do it, Why can't India ? BECAUSE, its far easier to trample on civilian liberties than put some brain and muscle in it to get some technology to this country. When you can come up with smart cards for RC books and already have a data base, how long does it take to access it from a computer or a scanner which looks at the number plate of passing vehicles and shows a red alert if something is WRONG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
But do you know that in the same US of A, tinted windows are prohibited in most states?
Nonsense

--> http://tintlaws.com/

---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_film#United_States
humyum is online now   (4) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 14:53   #1014
BHPian
 
ajaypjayaraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: KL
Posts: 920
Thanked: 1,058 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Been reading the bad state of affairs for out of state cars in Bangalore and how they stop you for imposing fines. Understood.

I drive to KA, TN often and some times AP too. Once I had been stopped in Chennai by cops for the same out of state car issue but when I told them its a short leisure trip, they din't trouble me and I din't have to show any proof what so ever. Was fortunate to get away without much trouble then.

Say I need to travel to Bangalore for a weekend trip. How should I be equipped? There are no tolls on the way to collect receipt and show as proof. Would keeping the fuel receipts on the date of travel or the day before from the different state (KL, TN, AP) satisfy the cops? or is there anything else that could be done to avoid the hassles? What will save the out of state travelers from the trouble and the fines being imposed by Bangalore RTO as of now?
ajaypjayaraj is offline  
Old 27th July 2014, 17:35   #1015
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,964
Thanked: 1,424 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj View Post
Say I need to travel to Bangalore for a weekend trip. How should I be equipped? There are no tolls on the way to collect receipt and show as proof. Would keeping the fuel receipts on the date of travel or the day before from the different state (KL, TN, AP) satisfy the cops?
Fuel receipts might not work, as many KL fuel pumps give out hand-written receipts - but you could try. I think the most reliable would be a PUC taken a day or so before your journey, since it even includes a photo of your vehicle physically present in KL.
binand is online now   (1) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 17:44   #1016
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 312
Thanked: 869 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

After having read some of the comments made on this topic, being a practicing lawyer I could not resist adding a few of my own (I hope this is not ):

(1) Payment of taxes as per the law is very much a legal obligation that we all have, no matter how large the tax and how apparently unfair it is -- at least till such time as the law is changed or a court strikes it down.

(2) Law-making power in relation to payment of taxes for motor vehicles is ordinarily a state subject in our constitution and each state has therefore right to do so. The specific legal provision for this is Entry 57 of List II of Seventh Schedule to the Constitution of India that reads "Taxes on vehicles, whether mechanically propelled or not suitable for use on roads". This is however subject to Entry 35 of List III (Concurrent List) of Seventh Schedule that reads "Mechanically propelled vehicles including the principles on which taxes on such vehicles are to be levied."

In layman's terms this means a state government can make laws for taxation of motor vehicles subject to any laws made by the Government of India in such regard. As of now the Central Motor Vehicles Act, 1988 is the only "central law" on the subject and it mentions 'road tax' at one provision -- Section 48 (Grant of NOC) which says that

"Before granting or refusing to grant the no objection certificate, the
registering authority shall obtain a report in writing from the police that no case relating to the theft of the motor vehicle concerned has been reported or is pending, verify whether all the amounts due to Government including road tax in respect of that motor vehicle have been paid and take into account such other factors as may be prescribed by the Central Government
."

It is quite clear therefore that in order to lawfully drive a motor vehicle, the road tax must be paid to the registering RTO (note - not many road taxes). In other words once you have paid your road tax you can drive around freely all over India.

(3) The other important provision in the Central M.V.Act 1988 is S. 49 (Change of residence or business) where there is an obligation on persons who change place of residence or business to inform the new RTO. However there is no power granted to the new RTO to demand road tax again (if already paid). This is the basis for my own doubts on whether the present system by which out-of-state vehicles are being forced to pay tax a second time is constitutional.

(4) Comments advocating the legitimacy of the principle that persons who shift to a particular state must pay the road tax there and must not be allowed to "get undue advantage" etc. are at best partly erroneous. Whether we like it or not, they have lawfully paid tax at the RTO of their original home state (I am excluding persons who conduct sham purchases). Having done that they should have the obligation to pay further taxes only after giving them the benefit of the amount already paid -- else it is double taxation which is quite blatantly illegal. Even this provision for payment of balance tax in the new RTO would (in my opinion) require amendment of S. 49 of the M.V. Act 1988 (see para (1) which in its present form provides a guiding principle that road tax must be paid only once)

(4) All this apart, there is nothing unconstitutional or illegal for the authorities to stop an out-of-state vehicle and demand proof that it is in the new state for temporary purposes provided:

(a) The law empowers such stop and seizure;
(b) The law prescribes what is acceptable proof of temporary visit (taxation laws are full of such prescriptions).

No doubt there can be some misuse but it is also a principle of law that scope for misuse should not put innocents at risk.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 27th July 2014 at 18:42.
Kumar R is offline   (12) Thanks
Old 27th July 2014, 17:58   #1017
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,964
Thanked: 1,424 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumar R View Post
In other words once you have paid your road tax you can drive around freely all over India.
[...]
Having done that they should have the obligation to pay further taxes only after giving them the benefit of the amount already paid -- else it is double taxation which is quite blatantly illegal.
Thanks for these two points. I think it will be helpful to anyone attempting to mount a legal challenge to the situation in KA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumar R View Post
(4) All this apart, there is nothing unconstitutional or illegal for the authorities to stop an out-of-state vehicle and demand proof that it is in the new state for temporary purposes provided:

(a) The law empowers such stop and seizure;
(b) The law prescribes what is acceptable proof of temporary visit (taxation laws are full of such prescriptions).

No doubt there can be some misuse but it is also a principle of law that scope for misuse should not put innocents at risk.
I have read through the KA MV Rules and KA MV Taxation Act and I agree with you. My main point here is that the search of the vehicle that the RTO does (looking for proof of continued presence in KA, by way of service receipts, long-term parking indicators etc. - as reported by some people here) is not legal. Stop - fine. Seizure - fine. The search in between - illegal.

Also, I did not find anything that can be construed as proof of temporary visit. Fuel bills, toll receipts etc. are things that have been used in the past, and are acceptable only because of precedence.
binand is online now  
Old 27th July 2014, 18:56   #1018
BHPian
 
ajaypjayaraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: KL
Posts: 920
Thanked: 1,058 Times
Default

A traveller who travels by his car registered in a different state than KA, if transits Bangalore to arrive another state, who has not kept any receipts to prove that he has just entered Bangalore the very same day that he has been stopped by the cops. What does he do? He is innocent and he has paid his road taxes to which ever RTO he has registered his car at. What right does anyone in any other state have to seize his car in the name of road tax for that state if he is just transiting or say he is just visiting Bangalore? I am talking about transit and short visiting cases only. Does that traveller deserve to be harassed in the name of road tax? That is the real illegal act right?
ajaypjayaraj is offline  
Old 27th July 2014, 20:19   #1019
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Trivandrum , Kerala
Posts: 22
Thanked: 14 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Can someone please guide me with these two doubts.
1) I have a car taken from Nagercoil RTO (TamilNadu). Is it possible to apply for NOC from chennai RTO (As all my relatives are in chennai now)
2) Then most importantly, is there any one here who has received the refund from govt? If I convert from TN to KA registration, can I get my tax refund from TN or I will have to get it from KA once I move back to TN? How difficult is it to get the refund and will it require some political influence to get the same?
Please guide.
binish is offline  
Old 28th July 2014, 06:17   #1020
Team-BHP Support
 
benbsb29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 8,018
Thanked: 3,468 Times
Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
No, you got it wrong. The little troubles that we bear up is to make sure that we don't end up in bigger troubles. For example, we do not mind the trouble of going through a security check so that we don't end up in a bigger trouble inside the plane.
However, we do mind if we are detained for the 'supposed' fear of causing trouble when we are innocent, which is similar to what the RTO is doing now. A genuine tourist has to prove he is not innocent.
benbsb29 is offline   (4) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buy car in state or out of state (Major price difference) autoenthusiast The Indian Car Scene 49 14th July 2017 01:21
Karnataka RTO - sms RTO to get Vehicle details 71Convertible The Indian Car Scene 83 8th October 2016 08:09
Where should I sell the car: State of Registration or Current State? m_upreti The Indian Car Scene 50 12th July 2016 17:38
RTO problems for transfering in own state vipinshetty The Indian Car Scene 5 20th February 2013 17:13


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:10.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks