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Old 28th July 2014, 17:00   #1036
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

I have taken the DD for LTT, as per the calculation given by RTO. Should I produce vehicle when I give this DD to RTO ?. Would sun-filim become an issue ?
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Old 28th July 2014, 20:00   #1037
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by dass View Post
I find it amusing and at time funny that people who are made to pay road tax for out of state cars here, want the same treatment in their home cities for non state cars. Which, in reality is what is actually happening here. "kannadiga","rule of the land", "migrant population"
Ah no, you might have misunderstood, what is required is KA RTO do what other states are doing - To let go, and focus on other important things (unless there is fraud). BLR govt is collects lot of taxes from foreign MNCs in the name of "development".

When you use worlds like- "kannadiga","rule of the land", "migrant" population" that itself sends callousness from your side. When are born Indian citizen , you dont want to hear such words weather you are from state or out of state. How can someone be migrant in his own country is beyond my head!?

Ya i remember that day when an RTO official tried to verify if i had KA visa - no idea what he meant .

Finally, i blame this issue 50% on system and 50% on population.

Last edited by aerohit : 28th July 2014 at 20:12.
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Old 28th July 2014, 20:45   #1038
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

As a seperate point, I wanted to comment on the perception of fairness / unfairness in having to prove something to the cops / RTO that may make the difference in having to pay taxes / fines. In law it is termed "burden of proof". Now we are all used to the melodrama and theatrics of inspectors and prosecutors being asked to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that the accused did commit a crime...but that is mostly a popular perception. Let me explain.

In the judicial process a party seeking to make a claim needs to prove the existence of some fact that supports him. If he succeeds, it is on the other party to prove that the 'fact' is incorrect / insufficient / has other causes / can be explained etc. This is termed as shifting of the burden of proof and this see-saw continues till one party is not able to continue and the other party wins in such case.

Now picture a law such as the Karnataka amendment making it mandatory for out-of-state vehicles to pay road tax provided they are continuously within the state for 30+ days. (It's a different matter that I believe the law is unconstitutional but there's no point in discussing that because we cannot choose to disobey it based on our own analysis) The enforcement agency (RTO/cops) can stop a car that is say TN-registered and may be entitled to presume that it has been on the state for 30+ days. The burden of proof now shifts to the owner who has to prove the vehicle was not so resident for 30+ days continously. It's not a draconian demand itself but it is foolish to ask people to prove such a fact without circulating guidelines on what constitutes sufficient evidence. For eg. when you buy an imported LCD TV and return to India the customs officers are entitled to presume it is dutiable and you have to prove it is not so (such as relocating to India / took it out and am returning it) -- there are detailed customs guidelines on what is satisfactory evidence.

Shifting of burden of proof is quite common and closely linked to presumptions of fact that the law permits. So in the case of stopping a car and asking for proof of out-of-state residence I do not believe one should take offence but it is ridiculous that nobody knows how to prove stay for 20 / 25 / 30 days.

Another interesting point I noticed on reading the pdf of the Karnataka Amendment Act cited by the OP is that it has only Governor's assent and not President's assent. Yet it contains a provision that levies the road tax "notwithstanding anything contained in the (Central) M.V. Act 1988) which is surprising. When state laws are passed on subject matter that falls in the domain of the Centre also, the President's assent is also needed as a procedural step. Maybe this can be cited for striking down the law (temporarily). Last year Calcutta High Court struck down one such law passed by the W.B. Government on similar grounds -- See link -- http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/20754085.cms

Last edited by benbsb29 : 29th July 2014 at 06:36. Reason: Deleted reference to quoted post.
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Old 28th July 2014, 21:04   #1039
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

this isn't going anywhere. It's time people start writing letters/petitions to MPs and CMs of their respective states and Southern states. Also considering this precedent and the potential for misusing such taxes, in future a provision can also be made to centrally collect the 'Lifetime Road Tax' and states can be given budgetary credit for the same once an year.

Also in case of centralized database, the refund process will also be painless and far easier. It is the job of the Govt of India to ensure that laws regarding freedom of movement are implemented fairly.
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Old 28th July 2014, 23:56   #1040
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
1) You will have to approach the TN74 RTO. If you have enough justification then you can try in Chennai and most probably they will send the request to TN74 through post. OR they will ask you to approach TN74 directly.

2) After moving from TN to KA, you will have to do the KA registration and then apply for refund in TN. Not sure if any in team bhp has received the refund.
Thank you for the details. Let me try with Chennai RTO. If its working, well and good. And is there any one here who has got the tax refund and if so, how was it done. Its clear that refund will take ages if we use wait-and-watch strategy. . As people are saying, either we should get a lawyer or govt should be active in providing the refund or we should find ways to make govt active to get things done. .Please throw some light on how to get it done.
Someone who has received the refund, please help.
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Old 29th July 2014, 00:47   #1041
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This thread is full of hatred, full of regionalism, full of politics, way out of topic, full of indirect attacks. I wish I could discuss I am tamilian, kannadiga, non-kannadiga, speak Hindi, don't speak hindi. But just not here. Sad. Am I the only one?
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Old 29th July 2014, 10:58   #1042
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Kumar R View Post
Another interesting point I noticed on reading the pdf of the Karnataka Amendment Act cited by the OP is that it has only Governor's assent and not President's assent. Yet it contains a provision that levies the road tax "notwithstanding anything contained in the (Central) M.V. Act 1988) which is surprising. When state laws are passed on subject matter that falls in the domain of the Centre also, the President's assent is also needed as a procedural step. Maybe this can be cited for striking down the law (temporarily). Last year Calcutta High Court struck down one such law passed by the W.B. Government on similar grounds -- See link -- http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/20754085.cms
Perfect catch kumar, I guess you are talking about the Singur land bill which was struck down as it was over riding the central act. As a matter of fact no State ACT can over ride a Central ACT, till the time its amended by Central Govt.

We will look into this as well while drafting the case.
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Old 29th July 2014, 11:14   #1043
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I don't see why the thread should be closed. Its a valid discussion topic. The ones who expose their hatred and uncivilized opinion here should be the ones to go. Not the thread. Any topic can be discussed and debated upon in a healthy way.
Things should not be taken personally.
Discussion should be purely focussed on the topic and not deviated from being all sentimental and sensitive.
This thread is very useful for people who are genuinely stuck and doesn't know what the solution is for the RTO amendments.
Use the thread to such positive advantage rather than being political.
Isn't that what Team BHP forums are all about?
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Old 29th July 2014, 11:39   #1044
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

I had driven to Bangalore from Chennai this weekend after a lot of apprehension. When driving inside the city I was stopped near E.city. But when i showed the toll receipts and service receipt they promptly let me go without any hassle. I was carrying a huge list of documents to prove that I had come to the city for a weekend though.
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Old 29th July 2014, 11:58   #1045
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Bengaluru has the most influx of other state vehicles considering its position in the IT Services. So, RTO is "correct" in collecting the taxes. But, they should at least make it 60 days and also, not harass tourists which will leave a bad impression. They should have implemented this in a methodical manner. If other state RTO's are not doing this means it does not mean KA RTO should not do. Its how they do it that matters.

And, one is allowed to be "Kannadiga" or a "Tamilian" as it is the states that make up a country. If it wasn't for such diversity, we would have had a single state in the country.

Lets not talk about regionalism here as its a never ending debate and its out of topic.
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:02   #1046
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

In this day and age, the current RTO processes seem unfair. There is a large floating population unlike earlier days where people were resident for most part of their life (few jobs excluded). I for one, have stayed in NCR for just less than a year, and the car I purchased there was sold at NCR itself to avoid these hassles. And then moved to hyd on a 50:50 basis being in Chennai/Hyd and later became 5days at Hyd and Holidays at Chennai. And as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, this crowd is quite sizable in many cities catering to the IT/KPO/BPO/ other services and manufacturing industries.

Ideally I would prefer that we do not have to go through all these hassles and have just one cost across India (including all the taxes), and just be asked to register at the local RTO for the sake of shifting residence. Or a minimum, they should only collect the difference between what is paid in the state the vehicle was purchased, taxes paid other states and what is the tax required in current state. Given that most of the RTOs are computerised, this should be doable transparently.

The whole trouble is, the owner is expected to pay the full tax and then claim the refund from the earlier state is totally unfair, computerised or otherwise. In my case if I had brought the vehicle to Hyd from NCR and then to Chennai, it means I need to pay the Tax thrice, with no refunds (in reality!!) which is quite a lot of money.

Last edited by raghu.t.k : 29th July 2014 at 12:04.
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:23   #1047
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Now with the growth of business in India with so many companies having branches in all major cities, consider a guy having to shift from Bangalore to Hyderabad to Chennai say each within a couple of years of service in each city. Wouldn't this way of taxing and refunding process by any state RTO be a torture to the citizens?
Doesn't this call for an amendment to the existing law to make things standard through out the nation? Or at least a process in place which makes this all effectively possible through online payment and refund, if they have to stick to legislation independent for each state.
A developing nation should have the resources to amend its rules and regulations to accept the changes for the better, just like improving the infrastructure to accommodate the changes if it has to cope and keep up with the pace of the development smoothly. Otherwise such issues would crop up all the time.
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:28   #1048
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
Bengaluru has the most influx of other state vehicles considering its position in the IT Services.
There you are talking something that is existent in all the cities where IT has boomed!
There are a lot of IT cities attracting migrant populace today. Statistically, the gap will be very less between these competent cities in terms of migrant vehicles from other states. Darn, We don't even need proof to assess that today!

There have been more of sweeter experiences and less of bitter from tourists passing through the city or visiting on weekends. So, the RTO is not necessarily harassing the Public but events reported by few are eye openers and certainly not welcome.

Most of the organizations classify more than 90 days are "permanent transfer" and less than 90 as "Temporary relocation" and I believe the RTO should ask for such letter from the individual claiming to stay here only for a temporary basis.

Lucky fellows are those in the Non-IT sectors working for NHAI with "Outside" registration number plates away from Bangalore and never being stopped by RTO seeking tax paid receipts!
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:37   #1049
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
There you are talking something that is existent in all the cities where IT has boomed!
There are a lot of IT cities attracting migrant populace today. Statistically, the gap will be very less between these competent cities in terms of migrant vehicles from other states. Darn, We don't even need proof to assess that today!

Most of the organizations classify more than 90 days are "permanent transfer" and less than 90 as "Temporary relocation" and I believe the RTO should ask for such letter from the individual claiming to stay here only for a temporary basis.
Yes, I agree its almost the same story in other IT cities, but its definitely more in Bengaluru considering that it acts a transit for other tourist destinations in and around too. That's not the point actually. Its how they deal with such cars that's causing so much fuss.

Such letters can be easily "faked" and RTO will definitely not consider them
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:49   #1050
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Kanasu View Post
Yes, I agree its almost the same story in other IT cities, but its definitely more in Bengaluru considering that it acts a transit for other tourist destinations in and around too.
So expect less of such stopping in other states vs here? As a matter of fact, Pune is a transit for Mumbai, Shirdi, Nashik, Gujarat and Rajasthan but then, lets not discuss that as you say below that its not the point.
Quote:
That's not the point actually. Its how they deal with such cars that's causing so much fuss.
You made a point already which we had stopped discussing long back.
Quote:
Such letters can be easily "faked" and RTO will definitely not consider them
Way better than providing fake Emission test certificates, isn't it? I mentioned it because it is something organizations do provide when they send folks to their office locations spread across in India.

Last edited by paragsachania : 29th July 2014 at 12:50.
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