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Old 29th July 2014, 18:27   #1051
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
It will not be the RTO who would be doing that. But the Income Tax Department. And Income Tax Department really does that. I hope you would have heard of Income tax raids happening. They generally land up at the premises when people least expect them . Income Tax Dept. how ever is a Central Govt. department.
It is nonsensical to compare IT 'raids' with what the K'taka RTOs do.
IT sleuths don't roam the streets and barge into random houses on suspicion.
It takes a minimum of 3 months reconnaissance, and prior consent of the Director, for a raid to actually happen.

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
They are expected to use the police force in searching (this is in contrast to say, Income Tax department, which has its own investigative agency called the Enforcement Directorate that has the power to search).
You can't be serious!
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Old 29th July 2014, 20:29   #1052
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There is no harm in collecting tax but RTO should use technology to prove that the car has been in Karnataka for "nn" number of days instead of the owner having to prove that he/she is not there for more than 30 days (which happened in my case). Anyways I am out of the state and hopefully will not travel back with my vehicle in the near future.


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Old 29th July 2014, 20:37   #1053
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Arkin evoisrevo View Post
It is nonsensical to compare IT 'raids' with what the K'taka RTOs do.
IT sleuths don't roam the streets and barge into random houses on suspicion.
It takes a minimum of 3 months reconnaissance, and prior consent of the Director, for a raid to actually happen.
So what is the point? Under S. 130, 133 and 213 of the MV Act 1988 police officers and motor vehicles inspectors have the right to stop a driver/owner of a vehicle and demand information and documentation re the vehicle. There's nothing illlegal / unlawful about it.

Income tax raids (search and seizure) are far more serious because they involve a greater degree of encroachment on individual liberties and as such a higher level of authorisation is necessary to go ahead.

The two are very different and hard to compare.

It's worth noting though that even relatively junior Group B and C officers of the IT department have powers to summon you and demand explanations / evidence / substantiation of facts stated in your filings.
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Old 29th July 2014, 22:48   #1054
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

I need some info.. Do I have to produce the car before RTO for paying LTT ?. Will they trouble if I have sun-filim ?

I have already gone to RTO to find how much I have to pay for LTT and also taken the DD. Hesitate to take my car along, as it has sun-filim
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Old 29th July 2014, 23:05   #1055
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by swageo View Post
I need some info.. Do I have to produce the car before RTO for paying LTT ?. Will they trouble if I have sun-filim ?

I have already gone to RTO to find how much I have to pay for LTT and also taken the DD. Hesitate to take my car along, as it has sun-filim
No worries. They don't inspect the vehicle. Only during the registration change they are supposed to verify the chassis/engine nos but that too they don't usually do, and rely on us taking the pencil imprints of the same.
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Old 30th July 2014, 08:53   #1056
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

RTO checking going on at Yelahanka - Doddaballapur road.The RTO guys are checking other state cars near Puttenahalli bus stop.This is on the road going towards yelahanka NES. Saw around 7 to 8 cars stopped at road side.
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Old 30th July 2014, 09:20   #1057
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Kumar R View Post
So what is the point?
You answered your own question:
Quote:
Income tax raids (search and seizure) are far more serious because they involve a greater degree of encroachment on individual liberties and as such a higher level of authorization is necessary to go ahead.

The two are very different and hard to compare.
Exactly my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkin evoisrevo View Post
It is nonsensical to compare IT 'raids' with what the K'taka RTOs do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumar R View Post
It's worth noting though that even relatively junior Group B and C officers of the IT department have powers to summon you and demand explanations / evidence / substantiation of facts stated in your filings.
Relatively Junior? To whom? ARTOs and RTOs too are Group C and B too.

Last edited by Arkin evoisrevo : 30th July 2014 at 09:27.
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Old 30th July 2014, 10:16   #1058
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Kumar R
In law it is termed "burden of proof". Now we are all used to the melodrama and theatrics of inspectors and prosecutors being asked to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that the accused did commit a crime...but that is mostly a popular perception. Let me explain.
It was really an excellent idea to have a lawyer on-board. This would clearly help us in case of getting the law points. For many of us the legal aspects in this country is a pandora's box - with half-baked theories, misconceptions etc. in our mind.

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So in the case of stopping a car and asking for proof of out-of-state residence I do not believe one should take offence but it is ridiculous that nobody knows how to prove stay for 20 / 25 / 30 days.
+1. I feel that there should be a proper guide line published in RTO web sites and popular news media (vernacular and English). Even when the time frame was 11 months these guide lines were missing. So it is generally RTO claims v/s the claims from the charge-sheeted person.

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Yet it contains a provision that levies the road tax "notwithstanding anything contained in the (Central) M.V. Act 1988) which is surprising.
I was the person who put up the amendment and the original act link. And it did strike me the clause, which is pretty much saying - Karnataka State does not care what ever provision MV Act of 1988 has, but in the state this how the taxation would be done. Thanks for clarifying that only state specific laws can be implemented with Governor's approval, where as any thing on concurrent list or has impact on an all India law requires President's approval. But I don't think so some one would file a PIL, because the people who are impacted are migrant population in the state.

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Originally Posted by raghu.t.k
In this day and age, the current RTO processes seem unfair. There is a large floating population unlike earlier days where people were resident for most part of their life (few jobs excluded).
Agreed. But we must understand one thing. Karnataka should not lose out on her tax revenue because she was liberal and allowed large industries to come in. Karnataka went over-board in getting IT and BPO industries established. And many people rushed into the city seeking a greener pasture. And then it is natural for the state to expect that these new people coming in contribute to the state's tax revenue. Today if people ask why Karnataka is not acting migrant-frienedly, I would like to ask them what were their own original mother states doing? I am Keralite, and I know that when Karnataka focused on ensuring large scale employment, Kerala was busy kicking out every possible industry out of the state. So for example Malayalis crying about an unfair life time tax should check with their Kerala politicians what have they done to ensure that Malayalis can work in their state.

To be frank, I don't think a one road tax across the country would be really practical. Because all parts in India are not uniformly developed. Today Bangalore gives more job oppurtunities than say Thiruvananthapuram. Where would the people come in large numbers, to Bangalore off course. So one area is getting good focus, people are willing to move there. So infrastructure needs to cope up, and so higher the tax.
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Old 30th July 2014, 10:39   #1059
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Default Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb,...

Taxing is fine. But problem faced is paying double tax and failing to get refund. Infrastructure development is good but these things have to be taken care of along with it.
I don't think any one wants to own their cars without paying road tax. The problem here is no one wants to pay multiple state tax for the same car. Just like the state cares about their revenue, every individual cares about his/her hard earned money.
If the system improves to facilitate paying and refunding taxes, be it online or offline but effectively, this "developed city" taxing (as some would say) could be done smoothly.
Rushing into a change would obviously kick up mass inconvenience.
See, all the reasons behind taxing being repeatedly explained doesn't solve the problem. The way it is being enforced requires much more streamlining.
At the end of the day, no matter what any state law says (not just KA, applicable to all), not a single citizen should be made to pay double tax for the same cause. That is not acceptable.

Last edited by ajaypjayaraj : 30th July 2014 at 10:41.
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Old 30th July 2014, 11:28   #1060
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj
Taxing is fine. But problem faced is paying double tax and failing to get refund. Infrastructure development is good but these things have to be taken care of along with it. ....
The problem here is no one wants to pay multiple state tax for the same car. Just like the state cares about their revenue, every individual cares about his/her hard earned money.
Ensuring every person gets a tax refund from their mother state is not Karnataka RTO's responsibility. It is the car owner's and the mother state's responsibility.
Quote:
Rushing into a change would obviously kick up mass inconvenience.
Karnataka was losing her tax revenue because too many vehicles in the state (and esp. Bangalore) caring two hoots on paying road taxes. These tax evaders would have 100 excuses, but ultimately the state was losing out.

Any way, these points were discussed long before in this very same thread.
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Old 30th July 2014, 11:39   #1061
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Ensuring every person gets a tax refund from their mother state is not Karnataka RTO's responsibility.
I think you took the case as just Karnataka's. Perhaps you missed out that I had mentioned "(not just KA, applicable to all)"
Please go ahead with making changes, improving the infrastructure, progressing ahead.. all welcome. But executing things in a better way would not cause so much inconvenience to people working, living or visiting that place.
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Old 30th July 2014, 14:07   #1062
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
....
Agreed. But we must understand one thing. Karnataka should not lose out on her tax revenue because she was liberal and allowed large industries to come in. Karnataka went over-board in getting IT and BPO industries established. And many people rushed into the city seeking a greener pasture. And then it is natural for the state to expect that these new people coming in contribute to the state's tax revenue. Today if people ask why Karnataka is not acting migrant-frienedly, I would like to ask them what were their own original mother states doing? I am Keralite, and I know that when Karnataka focused on ensuring large scale employment, Kerala was busy kicking out every possible industry out of the state. So for example Malayalis crying about an unfair life time tax should check with their Kerala politicians what have they done to ensure that Malayalis can work in their state.

To be frank, I don't think a one road tax across the country would be really practical. Because all parts in India are not uniformly developed. Today Bangalore gives more job oppurtunities than say Thiruvananthapuram. Where would the people come in large numbers, to Bangalore off course. So one area is getting good focus, people are willing to move there. So infrastructure needs to cope up, and so higher the tax.
My suggestion of a single price and tax was from an ideal state, since its 1 country. My main concern is that, the public should not bear the brunt of the inefficiency of the processes at the RTOs ( across the country). For eg. if I purchased a sedan at Delhi since I got a job there, and subsequently moved to Bangalore, then Hyd and finally Chennai. In reality, I would need to pay the taxes 4 times and forgo the remaining taxes, since it is a herculean task to get a refund. Instead, if the RTOs (in reality, their computing system) talk to each other and only the differential is to be paid, I am sure it would be much more acceptable, and many more would be willing to pay. At least I would do it, without cribbing.

That said, when I moved from Hyd to Chennai, I have paid the tax for my 3 year old AStar and initiated the processes of re-registration. But that is more to be compliant with the law. Also if for any reason I need to go back to Hyd, I am sure, I cannot quote that this car was originally from here, and hence I dont need to pay any more tax, can I ??

Last edited by raghu.t.k : 30th July 2014 at 14:10.
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Old 30th July 2014, 14:27   #1063
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

Uniform vehicle tax throughout India will be a perfect issue to raise in the platform, www.mygov.nic.in, created by Modi to hear Citizen's grievances and ideas to develop India!!
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Old 30th July 2014, 14:30   #1064
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
....
To be frank, I don't think a one road tax across the country would be really practical. Because all parts in India are not uniformly developed. Today Bangalore gives more job oppurtunities than say Thiruvananthapuram. Where would the people come in large numbers, to Bangalore off course. So one area is getting good focus, people are willing to move there. So infrastructure needs to cope up, and so higher the tax.
FYI, the road tax is not directly used to better the infrastructure. It goes to the govt's kitty - which can be redirected to fund higher education of a village or even for a health scheme. The money so collected will not remain in the service of Bangalore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Ensuring every person gets a tax refund from their mother state is not Karnataka RTO's responsibility. It is the car owner's and the mother state's responsibility.
Forget other states, would be good if they can ensure it for their own state. Quoting my previous post on this thread -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
Not to nitpick, but KA RTO is no better in terms of refunds. A friend moved from KA to MH. Paid up the tax in MH, got his new registration number and inspite of applying for a refund in KA, no luck even after >5 years!
Quote:
Karnataka was losing her tax revenue because too many vehicles in the state (and esp. Bangalore) caring two hoots on paying road taxes. These tax evaders would have 100 excuses, but ultimately the state was losing out.
So they could have implemented this drive with the earlier law (6-month) as well. That would have helped them nab the true defaulters. People who live there but register their vehicles in PY, for example. They reduced the buffer time through an amendment to increase the ambit of tax collection - to target the people who where there for short deputations (upto 6 months).
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Old 30th July 2014, 14:50   #1065
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Default Re: Beware 'Out of State' cars: RTO (Bangalore) taxation amendment from 28th Feb, 201

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
FYI, the road tax is not directly used to better the infrastructure. It goes to the govt's kitty - which can be redirected to fund higher education of a village or even for a health scheme. The money so collected will not remain in the service of Bangalore.
Isn't there a provision in Law that a portion of Road Tax Collected Should be used for Maintaining the Roads & other connected Infrastructure. Also a vague memory that person's who met with an accident should be given free medical care, at least in case of National Highways or tolled roads from the Road Tax Collected.

Last edited by P4life : 30th July 2014 at 14:51. Reason: Spelling Correction
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