Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 31st January 2015, 11:44   #1096
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,283 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Additional updates from Silverwood:

Quote:
Dear Friends,

I had the opportunity to speak to the lawyer of Mr.G.Gopal Reddy and below are the excerpts of our conversation.

1,The WP which was filed on behalf of Mr.Reddy had only one prayer-which was to release the vehicle (AP-registered Honda Accord).

2, The WP did not challenge the constitutional validity of the 30 day rule (Read MV taxation amendment act 2014).

3,The Honorable Justice gave the stay for 8 weeks for the below mentioned reasons

A,In larger interest of the society.The Honorable Justice is aware of the hardships faced by common man because of this rule and he had read numerous articles published in various news papers.(Kudos to all our supporters in the media for this.A big thumbs up to Jineesh Calicut Rohit Chohan for getting the much needed regional coverage).A big thanks to all the admins for their help in maintaining the quality of the forum.

B,The Honorable Justice was also aware of the supreme court ruling in our case where the The Honorable Supreme Court had disposed our Petition with observations and liberty that the petitioners should approach the Karnataka High court and challenge the MV Amendment under article 226 of Indian Constitution.

C, The Honorable Justice felt that this law was against the freedom of movement and was against the spirit of the constitution's provisions and federal principles.

D,The Honorable Justice felt that this law is contrary to the provisions of the Motor Vehicles Act.

E,The court also observed that, "Once the tax is paid in a particular place, it shall be treated as sufficient for the purpose of plying the vehicle throughout the country."

The KA Govt has appealed before the High Court not against the stay, BUT AGAINST MAKING CENTRAL GOVERNMENT RESPONDENT PARTY IN THIS CASE. KA govt knows well that if the Central Govt gets involved in this case, they will not have any say as the central govt has already given guidelines to the KA govt on taxation. (TDC meeting Oct 13 2013 and the recent TDC meeting which happened on 27/28th Oct 2014).

The stay was given on 5th of November 2014 for a period of 8 weeks:Please note that THE VALIDITY OF THE STAY WAS OVER ON 31ST DEC 2014 and the RTO guys can start their hunt anytime.The TC said that ''They have stopped the drives collecting fines from out-of-state registered vehicles that ply on city roads for more than 30 days and are waiting for the final verdict.''But we do not have any reason to believe them.

The counsel of Karnataka Govt has given an undertaking to the Honorable Justice that they will not implement this rule till this case is heard.

Waseem.......

Last edited by GTO : 2nd February 2015 at 09:59.
GTO is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 31st January 2015, 12:07   #1097
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,283 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

And another update from Humyum:

Quote:
The judge has questioned he validity of the Amendment-Stating that there is no consent from president on this.He also said that the said amendment ultra vires and it should be quashed.

The Judge further said that a private vehicle can ply any where in the country after paying LTT in one state.

The Judge has asked the Transport Secretary to be present in the court on Monday to explain on how this amendment was passed without assent of the President.
GTO is offline   (14) Thanks
Old 5th February 2015, 09:52   #1098
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,283 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

A copy of the High Court stay - Source

High Court Order.pdf

Last edited by GTO : 5th February 2015 at 23:11.
GTO is offline   (8) Thanks
Old 6th February 2015, 14:53   #1099
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,735
Thanked: 89,283 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

In light of recent developments, this thread has been re-opened.

Please do NOT discuss regional issues, people or politics on this thread, else it will be closed again. Our rules do not permit such posts. Focus on the taxation issue only.

Thanks for the support & understanding
GTO is offline   (11) Thanks
Old 6th February 2015, 17:19   #1100
BHPian
 
Ajitsingh208's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Pune
Posts: 209
Thanked: 101 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Finally some good news for the thousands of common citizens, the observations of the High Court show just how easily the Government can take the citizens for a ride. It was an invalid modification to the MV Act and no one anywhere raised a finger. The media too has taken notice only now.
Really hoping that the money collected by the RTO by forcefully taking away the RCs and confiscating the cars is returned back.
Ajitsingh208 is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 6th February 2015, 18:10   #1101
Senior - BHPian
 
naveenroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,319
Thanked: 694 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Wow, this is indeed good news and a victory for the common man. Respect to the people who followed this up to court.

Just goes to show how much power we "ordinary" people have!
naveenroy is offline  
Old 8th February 2015, 19:07   #1102
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,141
Thanked: 682 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
The Judge further said that a private vehicle can ply any where in the country after paying LTT in one state.
1. For how long is the stay order given? Generally courts give the stay for a specific time period.
2. Is the Karnataka Govt. planning to go for an appeal in Supreme Court for vacating the stay?
3. The interpretation given by the Hon.HC, has far reaching consequences. Note, the bolded part. This is pretty much saying that a private vehicle has to just pay taxes at one place. That means, no state (not only Karnataka) will be able to levy taxes on non-state vehicles. I don't know if that is what was originally thought when the MV Act was passed. If this interpretation holds good, state RTOs would only be able to levy taxes for new vehicles which get registered there. There may be also other problems, because people would start getting vehicles registered in states where taxes are very low (for eg: Pondicherry). Kerala also had faced similar problem once, because people used to get vehicles registered at Mahe (part of Pondicherry). In the new bill proposed for Road Transport, the states are to implement a way where taxes can be exchanged between states.
sachinpk is offline  
Old 8th February 2015, 19:17   #1103
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 45
Thanked: 15 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I guess first of all it is a great victory for people, having appealed legally against the state government and got a stay by organising a group on social media and ably led by Waseem.

However the larger issue still remains as pointed out by sachinpk on imbalance of tax rates across states.Also there was another issue on the "HSRP" and "HSRP" look alike number plate, with the high court of TN terming it illegal and folks driving through TN being asked to cough up fines for these number plates.

I believe it is time the uniform law is bought across India governing Commercial and Private motor vehicles else interpretations by state governments and passing of amendments leads to harassment of public.

Last edited by masin4 : 8th February 2015 at 19:20. Reason: spellings
masin4 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 8th February 2015, 23:04   #1104
Senior - BHPian
 
silversteed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PGT//BLR//STR
Posts: 1,988
Thanked: 1,405 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
1. For how long is the stay order given?
From what I know, the stay is in effect until the case is settled.
Quote:
2. Is the Karnataka Govt. planning to go for an appeal in Supreme Court for vacating the stay?
The KA govt counsel had asked a month's time to come back with their side.
Quote:
...This is pretty much saying that a private vehicle has to just pay taxes at one place. That means, no state (not only Karnataka) will be able to levy taxes on non-state vehicles. I don't know if that is what was originally thought when the MV Act was passed. If this interpretation holds good, state RTOs would only be able to levy taxes for new vehicles which get registered there. There may be also other problems, because people would start getting vehicles registered in states where taxes are very low (for eg: Pondicherry). Kerala also had faced similar problem once, because people used to get vehicles registered at Mahe (part of Pondicherry). In the new bill proposed for Road Transport, the states are to implement a way where taxes can be exchanged between states.
People resort to registering in other states to save tax, because it is possible to do so - the whole system is messed up, making it too easy to get fake residency proofs and addresses, and corrupt officers who turn a blind eye towards such malpractices; and some greedy politicians that are hell bent on squeezing the living life out of the law-abiding citizen by way of various taxes, especially true in certain states. Had there been a simpler way of collecting road taxes, such as annually, then this whole saga of state-sponsored tax terrorism would never have happened.

Last edited by silversteed : 8th February 2015 at 23:12.
silversteed is offline  
Old 9th February 2015, 06:54   #1105
Senior - BHPian
 
suresh_gs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: KA-01 / TN-22
Posts: 1,934
Thanked: 1,158 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
1. For how long is the stay order given? Generally courts give the stay for a specific time period.
2. Is the Karnataka Govt. planning to go for an appeal in Supreme Court for vacating the stay?
3. The interpretation given by the Hon.HC, has far reaching consequences. Note, the bolded part. This is pretty much saying that a private vehicle has to just pay taxes at one place. That means, no state (not only Karnataka) will be able to levy taxes on non-state vehicles. I don't know if that is what was originally thought when the MV Act was passed. If this interpretation holds good, state RTOs would only be able to levy taxes for new vehicles which get registered there. There may be also other problems, because people would start getting vehicles registered in states where taxes are very low (for eg: Pondicherry). Kerala also had faced similar problem once, because people used to get vehicles registered at Mahe (part of Pondicherry). In the new bill proposed for Road Transport, the states are to implement a way where taxes can be exchanged between states.
What about the folks like me and others owning non KA registered cars having voluntarily paid road tax in KA. Are we eligible for refund or is the matter dusted in our case once for all ?
suresh_gs is offline  
Old 9th February 2015, 09:22   #1106
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mumbai
Posts: 2,004
Thanked: 2,025 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (4)
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh_gs View Post
What about the folks like me and others owning non KA registered cars having voluntarily paid road tax in KA. Are we eligible for refund or is the matter dusted in our case once for all ?
I believe we need to wait for the final verdict by the high court on this. Karnataka government will have to act based on the final verdict. Legally if its favored that the re registration and tax collection is illegal the government will be forced to return the sums it collected, provided the high court order is not dated and it is retrospective, else you can kiss your hard earned money good bye.
apachelongbow is offline  
Old 9th February 2015, 10:08   #1107
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,141
Thanked: 682 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by masin4
However the larger issue still remains as pointed out by sachinpk on imbalance of tax rates across states.Also there was another issue on the "HSRP" and "HSRP" look alike number plate, with the high court of TN terming it illegal and folks driving through TN being asked to cough up fines for these number plates.
As far as I know, the MV Act of 1988 is a centrally legislated act, and hence applicable all across India. Requirement of registration, license and payment of taxes are all defined in this Act, with states executing the provisions. The general provision for collecting fines & imprisonment (Sec 177 & Sec 188) are also defined in MV Act. Then comes the Central MV Rules which defines the various parameters and guide lines by which the MV Act provisions should be used. Now to add to it, there are state specific MV Rules; which the state can play around with. For example, Kerala has provisions which ear marks certain number of seats of women, handicapped people etc. Violating this provision is violation of a Kerala specific MV Rule. And this gets charged under Sec.177 MV Act. TN Police would not use the same MV Rule to enforce this, but TN would have their own version of state MV Rule. The illegality of HSRP look-alike number plates may be defined in the state specific MV Rule.

Quote:
I believe it is time the uniform law is bought across India governing Commercial and Private motor vehicles else interpretations by state governments and passing of amendments leads to harassment of public.
The MV Act is uniform all across India, but being a federal country and all that states also have certain privileges for bringing in state specific legislations and rules. The proposed National Road Transport Safety Bill, I feel would address these regional imbalances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silversteed
People resort to registering in other states to save tax, because it is possible to do so - the whole system is messed up, making it too easy to get fake residency proofs and addresses, and corrupt officers who turn a blind eye towards such malpractices; and some greedy politicians that are hell bent on squeezing the living life out of the law-abiding citizen by way of various taxes, especially true in certain states. Had there been a simpler way of collecting road taxes, such as annually, then this whole saga of state-sponsored tax terrorism would never have happened.
Yes, agreed with you in parts. The current system is messed up. At present collecting road taxes in an annual basis is going to be a big problem. Because the onus for proving long term stay currently is with the government. An individual car driver can repeat the lie - "I came here just two days back..", and get away with it. Even during the last tax collection drive by Karnataka, that is why they resorted to catching people coming out of apartment blocks, office parking lots and taking snaps of parking stickers etc. If things go to the court Karnataka RTO needs to prove that the accused is a long term resident in the state. The accused can lie through their teeth, till they are caught with evidence.

A simple way to fix this problem is to have the same levels of tax all across the country, and amend the rules so that LTT has to be paid only once, and only in one state. Hon.HC did say that paying LTT in one state, gives it all India validity; but personally I am not too sure on that. Today road taxes are a major source of revenue for every state. So I don't think states would be very happy to allow collection of these road taxes at a central level. For all you know even other states may support Karnataka, on this issue . If LTT is collected in one state, then only a state which has large number of vehicles getting registered would make any good revenue. And these states also would have a problem, if a neighbouring state deliberately reduces the LTT and allows all and sundry to get the vehicles registered there (like what Pondicherry is doing).

Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up. Any body who knows the vehicle population in Bengaluru would know the problems the city authorities face. There are already too many vehicles on the road. And add to it, people who use non-KA vehicles, in the city roads who does not pay any thing for the road usage. Karnataka is getting a double whammy. First too many vehicles on the road, second many of these vehicles also do not contribute any thing to the state's tax revenue. Non state vehicle owners would say that they are okay to pay taxes on a yearly basis, but I would not really believe them. They would continue to evade this tax, because proving long term residence is a problem. We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.
sachinpk is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 9th February 2015, 10:57   #1108
Team-BHP Support
 
benbsb29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 8,022
Thanked: 3,480 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up. Any body who knows the vehicle population in Bengaluru would know the problems the city authorities face. There are already too many vehicles on the road. And add to it, people who use non-KA vehicles, in the city roads who does not pay any thing for the road usage. Karnataka is getting a double whammy. First too many vehicles on the road, second many of these vehicles also do not contribute any thing to the state's tax revenue. Non state vehicle owners would say that they are okay to pay taxes on a yearly basis, but I would not really believe them. They would continue to evade this tax, because proving long term residence is a problem. We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.
So, as per your logic, its ok to have too many vehicles on the road, as long as they are KA registered? Wow!
benbsb29 is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 9th February 2015, 11:04   #1109
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,141
Thanked: 682 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
So, as per your logic, its ok to have too many vehicles on the road, as long as they are KA registered? Wow!
How did you arrive at this conclusion, sir? My point was that cities like Bengaluru are seeing a huge influx of vehicles which the city and state government itself is finding it tough to manage. States collect road taxes, with the idea of improving their road infrastructure. And my point is that in cities like Bengaluru there are lots of non-KA vehicles who use the infrastructure, while paying nothing to the state in the form of road taxes. If vehicles are registered in KA, KA state gets extra revenue to try some thing on their road infrastructure. Again this is as per my understanding that a state collecting road tax, is for benefiting the state's roads. Will wait for more clarity on Hon.HC and Hon.SC on the pan-India application of LTT.
sachinpk is offline  
Old 9th February 2015, 11:04   #1110
BHPian
 
Ajitsingh208's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Pune
Posts: 209
Thanked: 101 Times
Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up. Any body who knows the vehicle population in Bengaluru would know the problems the city authorities face. There are already too many vehicles on the road. And add to it, people who use non-KA vehicles, in the city roads who does not pay any thing for the road usage. Karnataka is getting a double whammy. First too many vehicles on the road, second many of these vehicles also do not contribute any thing to the state's tax revenue. Non state vehicle owners would say that they are okay to pay taxes on a yearly basis, but I would not really believe them. They would continue to evade this tax, because proving long term residence is a problem. We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.
Well try shifting to a new place and paying up over a lakh for your car which is still under loan from a bank.
So you cannot get the NOC from the previous RTO, the current RTO where you pay the LTT again does not have a provision to refund it until you de-register in your home state , then register here and then de register from here and then register in your home state again.

The IT folks or for that matter anyone else would have loved to follow the law if the RTO showed the same urgency in granting refunds using the same documents which were used to pay LTT.
The law was made in such a way that there would be no refunds. Also, the Non KA vehicles plying in bangalore may not have paid the LTT but they still contribute in the same way as anyone having a KA vehicle, in paying all other state's revenue. They pay the same tax on fuel, shop at the same places thus contribute in VAT and so on.
The so called Road Tax that's collected, it is seldom used for roads. If it would have been Bangalore would have had the smoothest roads anywhere given the high amount of revenue collected just by registration of KA vehicles.
Ajitsingh208 is offline   (2) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buy car in state or out of state (Major price difference) autoenthusiast The Indian Car Scene 49 14th July 2017 01:21
Karnataka RTO - sms RTO to get Vehicle details 71Convertible The Indian Car Scene 83 8th October 2016 08:09
Where should I sell the car: State of Registration or Current State? m_upreti The Indian Car Scene 50 12th July 2016 17:38
RTO problems for transfering in own state vipinshetty The Indian Car Scene 5 20th February 2013 17:13


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 18:54.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks