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Old 9th February 2015, 11:18   #1111
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up. Any body who knows the vehicle population in Bengaluru would know the problems the city authorities face. There are already too many vehicles on the road. And add to it, people who use non-KA vehicles, in the city roads who does not pay any thing for the road usage. Karnataka is getting a double whammy. First too many vehicles on the road, second many of these vehicles also do not contribute any thing to the state's tax revenue. Non state vehicle owners would say that they are okay to pay taxes on a yearly basis, but I would not really believe them. They would continue to evade this tax, because proving long term residence is a problem. We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.
It would be wrong to say that the no revenue goes to KA govt. Remember, the fuel is taxed. And how can you be sure that folks will not pay yearly tax? If the govt brings out such a scheme, a lot of folks would pay up. You very well know the current job scenario and market. Are you OK with paying income tax /property tax for life?
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Old 9th February 2015, 11:21   #1112
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.
I agree with your POV provided the govt should show the same enthusiasm when somebody ask for a refund, else they can only be considered as big money sucking crooks, simple as that.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 9th February 2015 at 11:23.
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Old 9th February 2015, 11:22   #1113
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up.
What do you call these acts of KA RTO, If not Villainous.

1, Using TOUTS to jump in front of Non/KA Cars to stop them (We have 500MB of Video as proof)

2, Impounding PAN Cards,Aadhar cards, Employee ID Cards (Thank god, they did not impound Credit and Debit Cards)

3, Tress-passing in to private property with their chronies and sticking demand notices on Non-KA Cars

4, Misbehaving with women

5, Beating up Non-KA car owner in broad daylight.

Please let me know if RTO guys can demand saint hood with such heinous acts.

Waseem.....

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 9th February 2015 at 11:28.
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Old 9th February 2015, 11:30   #1114
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Ajitsingh208
Well try shifting to a new place and paying up over a lakh for your car which is still under loan from a bank.
These points were debated in detail, when this thread was started (and then it got locked up). So would not go over them again. We also had discussed about the practical difficulties in getting a refund. And if Karnataka has the right to collect its tax dues, she cannot be blamed for other state's RTO doing a sloppy job.

Quote:
The IT folks or for that matter anyone else would have loved to follow the law if the RTO showed the same urgency in granting refunds using the same documents which were used to pay LTT.
If the state RTO of Kerala, or Bihar or Jharkhand (examples) are doing a sloppy job in returning the LTT, how can Karnataka be blamed for that? If Karnataka state is authorised* to collect road tax, then she can collect it with out waiting for n other things to happen. RTOs are state specific organisations. In some states they work well, in others they don't.

Quote:
Also, the Non KA vehicles plying in bangalore may not have paid the LTT but they still contribute in the same way as anyone having a KA vehicle, in paying all other state's revenue. They pay the same tax on fuel, shop at the same places thus contribute in VAT and so on.
This may sound okay, when thinking in an emotional way. But would not work out thinking in a legal way. If Vehicle Tax collection is a state right, then we cannot say that the people any way pay other taxes and service charges and try getting a waiver on this one. Once we start thinking in emotional lines, then every thing becomes a gray area. I can refuse to pay BESCOM charges stating that, I pay water taxes any way. I can break any rule stating that any way police men get paid using my tax money. I can stop paying all other taxes, stating that I pay a huge income tax any ways. The list is end less.

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The so called Road Tax that's collected, it is seldom used for roads.
But that is not an excuse to stop paying the tax, am I right? Every state is collecting LTT, are the roads in those states smooth as silk? . There can be 100s of excuses to stop paying taxes, but that would not really work out practical.


I am waiting with baited breath on just one aspect. On the Hon.HC's verdict that LTT collected in one state is enough to allow the vehicle to ply any where in India. It is this aspect which needs to be clearly understood. Because this really opens up lots of questions. States having different tax rates, is one. Next would be the states (which allow large scale migration, mainly because of better job opportunities) losing out on vehicle taxes, because large number of vehicles get registered else where. And the biggest question would be can a state get any taxes from road users who are using the state's road on a regular basis. The new RTSB has provisions for sharing the tax revenues across states, when the vehicles move across the state. But that is yet to become the law.
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Old 9th February 2015, 11:45   #1115
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by glenmz
It would be wrong to say that the no revenue goes to KA govt. Remember, the fuel is taxed.
With the existing laws/acts in place, does Karnataka (or any state) have the rights to collect Life Time Road Tax? My understanding is YES. In that case this tax has to be paid (or collected through enforcement). Fuel is taxed every where in India, but has any state said they would not collect road tax? As per my understanding, NO. Then why should Karnataka be different? If road tax has to be stopped (because other taxes/cess are getting paid), then it has to be a pan-India law.

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And how can you be sure that folks will not pay yearly tax? If the govt brings out such a scheme, a lot of folks would pay up.
People would dodge taxes if that dodging cannot be detected easily. It is quite well known that smart business men use many loop holes to evade paying the right amount as taxes. People used to show much reduced income, and file incorrect income tax statements. TDS scheme was launched to correct this, and it is working wonders. Even IT company folks say they pay their income taxes regularly, that is because their tax gets deducted every month by their own employer (whom they cannot question easily). When it comes to collecting road taxes on a yearly basis. The onus on proving that the vehicle was used in the state for the specified time (1 month in KA, 3 months in other states) is by the prosecuting agency (i.e RTO in this case). With the existing legal frame work, it is tough to prove that a person has stayed for more than the stipulated time. In India, where people have excuses for every thing no one will volunteer to say that he has been staying in one place for a long time, especially if the next step is to pay money to the government .

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD
1, Using TOUTS to jump in front of Non/KA Cars to stop them (We have 500MB of Video as proof)
If there are legal provisions to employ "civilians" to assist RTOs in enforcing the laws, then this should be all right. For example: District Collectors in Kerala are authorised to recruit able bodied men as Special Police Constables for a specific period of time. They have all the rights and privileges which a Kerala Police Constable has. This is regularly used during elections. So what if in Karnataka, there are similar provisions?

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2, Impounding PAN Cards,Aadhar cards, Employee ID Cards (Thank god, they did not impound Credit and Debit Cards)
Has the court found this impounding of documents to be illegal? My understanding is that these can be used by RTO to prove that the accused has been staying in Karnataka for a long time.

Quote:
3, Tress-passing in to private property with their chronies and sticking demand notices on Non-KA Cars
If they have the correct documents/warrants in place, RTO (or any other government agency) can enter private premises. Again, was this highlighted in your petition to Hon.HC? What was the court's opinion on this?
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Old 9th February 2015, 12:08   #1116
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
If the state RTO of Kerala, or Bihar or Jharkhand (examples) are doing a sloppy job in returning the LTT, how can Karnataka be blamed for that? If Karnataka state is authorised* to collect road tax, then she can collect it with out waiting for n other things to happen. RTOs are state specific organisations. In some states they work well, in others they don't.
Well the other RTOs do not come into picture in this case, If no NOC is required when collecting LTT then why does re registration be deemed necessary for refund. Shouldn't proof of employment or shifting of residence suffice just like it does when the RTO catches you.

Also, I feel with the kind of mobility we are witnessing, there has to be a new mechanism in place for movement of vehicles. A person having family in Pune, extended family in Hyderabad and working in Bangalore cannot be expected to pay taxes for 3 States.
Maybe something like the GOA entry tax, you pay when you enter and it is valid for a month. Then you need to repay a nominal amount again.
In the current scenario it is better to have a Commercial registration on one's vehicle and move around.
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Old 9th February 2015, 12:12   #1117
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Originally Posted by GTO
A copy of the High Court stay
Read the stay order. Is this the complete order? The .PDF file has only one page. The "Order" is as below.
Learned Addl. Government Advocate is directed to take notice for the respondents.
The government pleader is to take notice of this order, and perhaps to come up with the government side of the story after checking with the Transport Authority etc.

The matter shall not be precipitated till the life tax on changing the movement of vehicle from one state to other state is decided. Notice is.ordered and undertaking is ordered.
The RTO (or any other agency) now cannot continue with the drive, till the rules and laws regarding life tax on changing the vehicle from one state to another is decided. This means that the court would now has to go through all the laws and acts to understand the taxation aspects when the vehicle is changed from one state to another. But I am yet to understand where the Hon.SC said that - "The Judge further said that a private vehicle can ply any where in the country after paying LTT in one state.". It is NOT noted any where in the Stay Order. Is it mentioned in any other document/order? Please note that a judge can make oral comments when passing orders. These are not considered as part of the order, and is only taken as a verbal statement (and not enforceable).

I checked the MV Act, which specifically mentions the need to collect a road tax when registering a vehicle. I could NOT find any thing related to a mandatory requirement on collecting road taxes before registering a vehicle. So MV act does not mandate a collection of road tax. Did more googling and found out that there are state specific acts which allow collection of road taxes. Each state has its own state specific law regarding collection of road tax. Since these laws have been in place for ages now, we can assume that Presidential approval does exist for these Acts.
THE KARNATAKA MOTOR VEHICLES TAXATION ACT, 1957.
Refer to the first few sections which explains the Act, and why it was required. Section 22 in Chapter III, clearly says the state's rights to levy the tax and how it can be done etc.
The Kerala Motor Vehicles Taxation Act 1976
The Government of Kerala has constituted a law, The Kerala Motor Vehicles Taxation Act 1976 which requires the department to levy tax on every motor vehicle used or kept for use in the state of Kerala at the rates specified by the Government for each type of vehicle. The Government has powers to increase the rate of tax from time to time.
Kerala too seems to have provisions on deciding the tax rates etc.

NOTE: I am a lay man, and not an expert in laws. So please correct me if I am wrong here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajitsingh208
If no NOC is required when collecting LTT then why does re registration be deemed necessary for refund
From what I figured out after reading the Taxation Acts for Kerala and Karnataka. The NOC requirement for re-registration is a requirement as per MV Act. The NOC is required to ensure that there are no pending cases against the vehicle in the original state. Collection of Road Tax is a benefit/privilege of the state by a state specific Taxation act. Note the Taxation Act of Kerala. It clearly says that the state has rights to collect taxes for vehicles kept in the state, or used in the state. And the amounts also can be decided by the state. RTOs may be clubbing the two activities (i.e re-registration and collection of LTT), because that is the only time they can catch hold of the vehicle owner. The other option being catching them on the road, proving that they have been plying without paying the tax. MV Act specifies requirement of re-registration, while the state laws demands payment of road tax.

What may be a legal hurdle for Karnataka is that, that MV Act provisions only require a change in registration if the vehicle is in use in a new state for more than 12 months (Check link). But as I see it, nothing stops Karnataka (or any other state) from collecting what is known as "Road Tax".

Added later: Karnataka amended its state specific Taxation laws in Feb 2014. Click to find the amendment. The amendment says that not withstanding any thing mentioned in MV Act 1988, the state can collect road taxes for any vehicle which is in use in Karnataka for more than 30 days. My understanding is that State specific laws & Acts only require approval from the State's Governor. State Governor has given the approval. This is because the said act is only applicable for the state, and not against any other act which has pan-India jurisdiction. I would really love to see the legal battle on this ground.

Quote:
Also, I feel with the kind of mobility we are witnessing, there has to be a new mechanism in place for movement of vehicles. A person having family in Pune, extended family in Hyderabad and working in Bangalore cannot be expected to pay taxes for 3 States.
I do agree with you here. That is the practical difficulty, coming in with change of times. But the existing legal frame work allows state wise tax collection. These are all man made laws. With enough and more lobbying we all can change it.

Last edited by Eddy : 9th February 2015 at 21:47. Reason: Merged
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Old 9th February 2015, 12:55   #1118
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post




If there are legal provisions to employ "civilians" to assist RTOs in enforcing the laws, then this should be all right. For example: District Collectors in Kerala are authorised to recruit able bodied men as Special Police Constables for a specific period of time. They have all the rights and privileges which a Kerala Police Constable has. This is regularly used during elections. So what if in Karnataka, there are similar provisions?Has the court found this impounding of documents to be illegal? My understanding is that these can be used by RTO to prove that the accused has been staying in Karnataka for a long time.If they have the correct documents/warrants in place, RTO (or any other government agency) can enter private premises. Again, was this highlighted in your petition to Hon.HC? What was the court's opinion on this?
BTP has team of volunteers called Traffic wardens which has a GO to this effect.Have u heard of Transport wardens.?If so,please enlighten me.
These guys are employing TOUTS to enter apartments/societies to carry out these these wicked acts and you are talking about correct documents/warrants.?

The Govt Counsel did not have any answers when the Judge asked about impounding personal documents,He was dumbstruck.

Waseem
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Old 9th February 2015, 13:54   #1119
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
And if Karnataka has the right to collect its tax dues, she cannot be blamed for other state's RTO doing a sloppy job.
What about the refund from Karnataka RTO for the road tax paid, if I am moving out from Bangalore?

Karnataka RTO do not require\ask any documents or proof of stay if one want to pay tax voluntary, so don't you think the same should hold good for refund also?

Case in example, I was allowed to pay life time tax for my car without submitting any proof of staying in Karnataka for any period of time, and I have not re registered the car to KA since my car is not and will not be in Karanata for 12 months.

So, if I am moving out of karnataka, shouldn't the RTO refund me the amount if I submit a form for the same? Or, at least shouldn't they refund if I can give a proof that I am going out from karnataka for good?

If they do not need re-registration to collect tax, why make it mandatory for refund of tax? Double standards.

--Anoop

Last edited by theexperthand : 9th February 2015 at 13:57.
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Old 9th February 2015, 13:55   #1120
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD
BTP has team of volunteers called Traffic wardens which has a GO to this effect.
There is a difference. Traffic Wardens cannot enforce any law. There are purely civilians (who wear a uniform), and manage the traffic as part of their social responsibility. Where as in the case of Special Police Constables, they have the full rights and powers of a Police Constable (not that it is really vast set of powers, but still).

Quote:
These guys are employing TOUTS to enter apartments/societies to carry out these these wicked acts and you are talking about correct documents/warrants.?
If unauthorised people enter apartments/societies, the residents association can go for legal action, am I right? So has that route been taken. Has any residents association moved a case against these unauthorised personnel? And the RTO folks also made accomplices of the said offence?

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The Govt Counsel did not have any answers when the Judge asked about impounding personal documents,He was dumbstruck.
Agreed. Any way the state would be filing appeal, is what I could understand. Correct me if I am wrong here. The high handedness of the RTO folks can for sure be questioned, but I feel the moot point is if Karnataka state can amend the laws to make road tax collection more quicker. And use the amended law to go hammer and tongs against the non-KA vehicle owners. So were you trying to curtail the high handedness of the RTO (and Karnataka State) or trying to stop the collection of motor vehicle taxes?

I understand that you were actively involved in working on this case. So would like to know your thoughts on the below points:-
1. MV Act (which is a Central Act), does mention about the requirements of re-registering a vehicle if it has been used for 12 months out side the current state in which it is registered. Karnataka state has not amended this provision at all. If it is amended, it would require Presidential approval. From what I could understand after a cursory glance of the act, MV Act does NOT mention any thing about road taxes at all.
2. The act which got amended was the Karnataka Motor Vehicles Taxation Act. This is a state specific Act, which does not have a pan-India jurisdiction any ways. It only requires ascent from the state Governor, which I am sure has been received. So Karnataka has just amended a state specific law to speed up road tax collection. Please note, this law has been in existence for 20-30 years, and no court has found the act to be unconstitutional. Other states too have similar acts. So collecting motor vehicle taxes is the baby of respective states.
3. I checked the Stay order, it did not mention any thing about the Judge stating that paying LTT in one state is enough for the vehicle to ply all across the country. Would it be possible to attach that ruling? Because that turns the entire picture 360 degrees. It is in a way stating that states cannot levy state specific motor vehicle taxes freely.
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Old 9th February 2015, 14:06   #1121
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by theexperthand
So, if I am moving out of karnataka, shouldn't the RTO refund me the amount if I submit a form for the same? Or, shouldn't they refund if I can give a proof that I am going out from karnataka for good?
Did you check of such a form exists? Please note that the RTO (or for that matter, any government official) is not making payments out of their pockets. And it is obvious that a person giving money would have to be more careful, than a person receiving it . This happens even when we buy things from a shop, am I correct? Whose onus is to ensure that I make the payment as per the bill (the shop keeper's or mine?). So Karnataka RTO would like to have some tangible proof to ensure that you are indeed shifting the shop to outside Bangalore/Karnataka. One simple way would be applying for an NOC from the RTO, which means that you are planning to get the vehicle registered else where. Or else why should they believe you (or me), and just pay back money based on some oral statement, or unofficial letters?

Note, in the case of you paying the Motor Vehicle Tax upfront, the state is not losing any thing. They are getting more money. So why should they bother. The rule that registration has to get changed after 12 months is a mandate as per MV Act. Karnataka RTO can again make a fuss, if they can prove that you over-stayed but still did NOT get the vehicle re-registered. For a change, that would be an offence against MV Act.

For ease of use (of every one), the NOC request & re-registration requests were used to collect the state road tax (which is based on a state specific law). Every thing could be done at one shot. What prompted Karnataka Government to try a different way may be:-
1. No one really doing the re-registrations after 12 months, and using tools like toll receipts to prove that they have just landed a few hours ago . Not a big problem, as the vehicle is registered else where and in case of accidents etc, that state would have to work on it.
2. Since re-registration is not happening, collection or road taxes for non-KA vehicles too are not happening. And the state jolly well knows that lots of non-KA vehicles now ply in major cities. The state realises it can get a huge amount, if these folks are taxed as well. Amend the state specific law, and then get going. It is after all money, and every state would like to have the maximum of it.
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Old 9th February 2015, 14:09   #1122
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
...
2. The act which got amended was the Karnataka Motor Vehicles Taxation Act. This is a state specific Act, which does not have a pan-India jurisdiction any ways. It only requires ascent from the state Governor, which I am sure has been received. So Karnataka has just amended a state specific law to speed up road tax collection. Please note, this law has been in existence for 20-30 years, and no court has found the act to be unconstitutional. Other states too have similar acts. So collecting motor vehicle taxes is the baby of respective states.
...
The whole super-high-handed RTO crackdown began with a 2014 amendment to the Karnataka Taxation act, which ordered anyone who had been residing in Karnataka for more than 30 days, to pay up LTT.

Which, IMHO, stinks of legislature sanctioned extortion. And, frankly, Karnataka RTO ran the tax collection drive like an extortion racket.
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Old 9th February 2015, 14:27   #1123
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The whole super-high-handed RTO crackdown began with a 2014 amendment to the Karnataka Taxation act, which ordered anyone who had been residing in Karnataka for more than 30 days, to pay up LTT.
Has it been proved that Karnataka State cannot make such an order? If no, then they have the right to amend the state act as they please and enforce it in true letter and spirit. I know that Team-BHP-ians are working on a case to annul the amendment, but I don't think it has got annulled yet. I would wait to see on what grounds the court would find it fit to be annulled.

Please refer to Sec 8A and Sec 8B of the Karnataka's Act which talks about getting the tax dues collected. It just says that the person would get a notice served, and given an chance to explain. After that the tax dues are collected. Sec 11 and Sec 11A states who can stop, detain (and even sell) motor vehicles and check for tax dues.

Quote:
Which, IMHO, stinks of legislature sanctioned extortion. And, frankly, Karnataka RTO ran the tax collection drive like an extortion racket.
May be yes, may be no. The state has every right to get its tax dues. But my personal feeling is that if people were allowed 12 months to pay the state motor vehicle taxes (just because MV Act mandates re-registration only after 12 months), Karnataka government would be waiting till world's end to get that tax . People would just dodge the tax payments. Many of the people who got caught in the last drive, were folks who were in Bengaluru for quite some time. So every thing is not just black & white.

Would wait and watch to see what justifications the state would bring up to collect her tax dues, and what non-KA vehicle owners have got to counter the claims. And to be honest, other states too can try these tactics.
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Old 9th February 2015, 14:48   #1124
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Read the stay order. Is this the complete order? The .PDF file has only one page. The "Order" is as below.
Learned Addl. Government Advocate is directed to take notice for the respondents............

The matter shall not be precipitated till the life tax on changing the movement of vehicle from one state to other state is decided. Notice is.ordered and undertaking is ordered. ......
Can you please share a PDF/JPG/Link of the above complete order? Much appreciated.
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Old 9th February 2015, 14:50   #1125
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A copy of the High Court stay - Source

Attachment 1336571
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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Can you please share a PDF/JPG/Link of the above complete order? Much appreciated.
Quoting GTO's post.
Details are available in the fb group.
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