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Old 9th February 2015, 19:30   #1141
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I hope that this paves way to either
1) one tax across all states (or)
2) Make it easier for people to transfer. It should be as easy as just applying for transfer or re-registration and paying up the difference in road-tax (if any) or getting the refund from the first state.

But we all know that in India, rules are made with the sole purpose of making people's lives difficult. So, I don't see (2) happening. So, in my opinion, the only way forward is abolishing the current rules and make tax uniform across states.

Oh, by the way, I think the number of people genuinely affected are much smaller than those who deliberately avoid the tax. Two reasons:
1. I see several non KA cars in my office parking, for several months.
2. I see several cars coming into the city (crossing Tamilnadu border) on Monday morning, which means the car spends 5 days of a week in KA. You can counter this with ifs and buts, but I doubt any of them are good enough.
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Old 9th February 2015, 19:53   #1142
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Where I don't agree with the current thoughts is that Karnataka government is shown as a villain who is forcing people to pay up. Any body who knows the vehicle population in Bengaluru would know the problems the city authorities face.
Since I have lived in Bangalore for many years and I am closely attached to that place and keep travelling to Bangalore time to time, sometimes even stay over for a month or two with my car, I am very much concerned about this topic and I think the Karnataka RTO is downright villainous extortionist with intent of looting and terrorizing people.

1) This can be observed from incidents all over this thread.

2) Changing the rule from 11 months to 1 month. Can't someone travel with their car to another state and stay for more than a month ? If he does, he has to pay 15 year road tax ? Defies logic and points only to a vicious black marketeer type intention. Why was a 1 year rule not implemented for paying road tax instead of changing the time frame to 1 month ? Rules are meant for the people, not against the people, even if they don't belong to Karantaka, they are still people of India.

3) Another point which shows the evil intentions are, if you pay the road tax, they are okay if you don't change the registration number because they know that if you do decide to move back to your state, you cannot claim the road tax back as you have not re registered in Karnataka. Evil Kenevil eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
There are already too many vehicles on the road. And add to it, people who use non-KA vehicles, in the city roads who does not pay any thing for the road usage. Karnataka is getting a double whammy. First too many vehicles on the road, second many of these vehicles also do not contribute any thing to the state's tax revenue.
There are too many vehicles on the road in every major city in India, Bangalore is not an exception. Too many people from Karnataka too migrate to other cities and use their KA vehicles there as do MH vehicles migrate to say Delhi or Rajkot vehicles migrate to Hyderabad, Bangalore is not the only exception. India a vast country and according to the constitution it grants us unparalleled freedom of moment.

With your logic, cities which are highly populated should tax people moving into them too ? They add to the usage of infrastructure like electricity, water supply, drainage system, public transport etc etc which is already overstretched.

You negate the concept of India with these division lines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Non state vehicle owners would say that they are okay to pay taxes on a yearly basis, but I would not really believe them. They would continue to evade this tax, because proving long term residence is a problem. We are making a big false assumption that Karnataka Govt & RTO are big crooks, where as the general crowd (IT folks et.al) are all law abiding angels.

Well, proving long term residence is a problem because the RTO wants an easy way out by just thinking everyone is a long termer and hence brought out this rule. Secondly, the yearly taxes should be applicable if I stayed for more than a year, not if I stayed for more than a month. Month is too short a time.

There was a street in Coventry where I used to live, which had a lot of drug peddlers who used to sell them to everyone including underage kids, thank god the Coventry Police did not think that all of us were complicit in the crimes because we happen to live on that street.

Last edited by humyum : 9th February 2015 at 19:55.
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Old 9th February 2015, 22:08   #1143
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey
Karnataka Residents who evade tax: They are the people who have been living in Karnataka for a lot of years, own properties here and will probably live here for years to come.
Perhaps this is the precise reason why RTO folks decided to ambush folks residing in various apartments & housing societies in Bengaluru. And also the next ambushes were next to IT company parking lots & exit gates.

Quote:
They are people who have moved into Karnataka for career interests. They might have worked in different states before and probably will move to different states in the future as well. While coming from the previous state, the brought their vehicle along and probably will take it along to their future destinations as well. Their aim is not to evade taxes.
How can we be so sure on the underlined part? Either they were ignorant of the law, or they had no intentions to pay up. Re-registration and paying LTT at other states, no body is really bothered with it. As I said earlier, even then request that yearly tax payments should be allowed came after the RTO folks started strong the drive. But not before that. Why??

Quote:
Here, we have a case where the RTO asks you to pay the tax without changing the registration when it is clearly evident that getting an NOC and cancellation /change of registration is mandatory to get a refund.
As I mentioned earlier, the state (or any sane individual) would double check on when money is going out. But not when coming in. Karnataka collects road taxes based on a local law. If people pay up, they are happy. But it is the individual's responsibility to ensure a receipt is given. The reverse happens when the state has to pay out. The state has to ensure that people who claim a tax refund are genuinely moving out of the state. How can that be proven? When a NOC for re-registration is asked for. That confirms the intentions of the individual to move out of the state.

Quote:
They should be doing a fair implementation of the rule, give the vehicle at least 6 months as a deadline.
I do agree that the the 1 month rule was precisely for the RTOs to crack down on non-KA vehicles. But it is very tough to prove that a person has been staying in Bengaluru for more than 6 months. After every 5 month, the chap can go to Hosur (for example), get a toll receipt and come back. Why do you think RTO clearly ambushed people (mainly the IT crowd) at their own apartment gates and office gates? They had clear intelligence that it was these folks who were evading tax for a very long time. Let all the folks who got their vehicle seized from their office or apartment gates, go to the court and prove that they were not staying in Bengaluru for more than six months. Has any one tried that? As far as I know not even a single chap who got their vehicle seized approached the courts. They paid up.

Quote:
Once the vehicle is caught, give the first notice and make sure the vehicle gets an NOC and gets re-registered in KA by paying the tax within 30 or 60 days
Practical difficulties in implementation.
1. The first notice gets served by one officer, what guarantee is that he would detect the second offence as well? Karnataka RTO does not have the black-berry based system which Bengaluru Traffic Police has. So tracking repeat violation is going to be a problem.
2. How is the "making sure" of vehicle getting an NOC enforced? No one in this world would believe the oral statements given by people. So either the vehicle has to be seized or some other major document of the owner has to be seized. This was precisely what Bengaluru RTO was doing even during the last drive. They seized the vehicles. Seizing DLs, existing RC books etc. would not make any difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum
Changing the rule from 11 months to 1 month. Can't someone travel with their car to another state and stay for more than a month ?
Then why stop at one month? We can extend it to six months (what was before). And then why stop at 6 months? Any body can travel any where, and stay put there for any amount of time. I can understand that the reduction of time frame for one month, was purely to increase the revenue of the state. But even when it was six months time frame, I did not find any body volunteering to pay the road tax.

Quote:
Another point which shows the evil intentions are, if you pay the road tax, they are okay if you don't change the registration number because they know that if you do decide to move back to your state, you cannot claim the road tax back as you have not re registered in Karnataka.
Taxes are levied not based on any provision in MV Act. That is different, as it is based on a state specific law. The requirement of changing registration is a requirement as per M.V Act. I don't think we can club the two provisions (of two separate laws).

Quote:
Too many people from Karnataka too migrate to other cities and use their KA vehicles there as do MH vehicles migrate to say Delhi or Rajkot vehicles migrate to Hyderabad, Bangalore is not the only exception.
Nothing stops these states from implementing similar laws and conducting similar road tax collection drives. Just because other favourite cities don't do it, does not mean Bengaluru cannot do it (and the vice versa as well).

Quote:
India a vast country and according to the constitution it grants us unparalleled freedom of moment.
I guess, this is one point on which the current litigation has been filed in the Hon.HC of Karnataka. I mean, the move of the Karnataka is in violation of the fundamental rights guaranteed by the constitution. Off-course, I would wait for the Hon.HC to give its verdict. But that being said, assuming that "unparalleled freedom of movement" is guranteed:-
1. Why should any state levy a Motor Vehicle Tax? Does'nt that violate freedom of movement? Even if I ply between Ernakulam and Palakkad (within Kerala state), I still have to pay Kerala Motor Vehicle taxes? Is'nt that an injustice?
2. MV Act mandates that a driving license is mandatory, and there is an minimum age limit. It violates the freedom of movement of my 10 year old nephew, who cannot drive a car and go from Palakkad to Ernakulam. Why is the law restricting the rights of movement for my poor nephew?
3. During my trips to Kerala, I have to pay nearly Rs.250 as the tolls in various NHAI booths. Gross injustice, I must say. Why should I pay tolls, as the constitution guarantees "freedom of movement".

To sum it up "Freedom of Movement" comes with its own checks and balances. The state of Karnataka does not stop any one from travelling by any public transport (bus, trains, flights etc.), or by private transport. It is all allowed if the people follow the other legally established Legislations,Acts & Rules.

Quote:
There was a street in Coventry where I used to live, which had a lot of drug peddlers who used to sell them to everyone including underage kids, thank god the Coventry Police did not think that all of us were complicit in the crimes because we happen to live on that street.
Wrong example. Coventry (UK) police may have kept all of you folks in surveillance and perhaps even posted extra police patrols. But for them to charge any person, there has to be clear cut evidence that they dealt with drugs. The Karnataka RTO has also done some thing similar. They posted extra patrols in areas where they figured out tax-defaulters would be in abundance (eg: in front of apartments, and IT office parking lots). Then they checked the vehicles, and collected evidence (parking stickers, employee ID cards etc.). And they served the notice to the driver, and seized the vehicle. Using your own example, Karnataka RTO did NOT believe that all residents staying in Sarjapur Road, or who stayed in a posh apartment complex near by were road tax defaulters. They did their home work, and placed and ambush to catch the people red-handed.
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Old 9th February 2015, 22:14   #1144
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I have a number of vehicles, almost all of them registered in KA except one, which is registered in my native state. It is true that I got a hefty discount on the LTT in my state, it is also true that I keep going out of KA almost every month on that vehicle, and it is again also true that I have stayed in KA for years. I admit that one of the considerations of my buying the vehicle in my home state was the reduced price. However, I could have gotten it Pondy registered. I didn't, I went to my home state, because, interestingly, the brand did not have established presence in KA at that time, but it did in my home state. I felt more comfortable buying it there.

Anyway, ethically, I do agree - to an extent - that because roads in KA are about 100 times better than in my home state, I should pay a higher LTT here. But I also feel that as Indians we are overtaxed and that my tax money is under/mis-utilized. All in all, the solution I feel I would like is this:

1. Let road infrastructure be a pan-India issue. Let pan-Indian rules be set for road-related taxes.

2. Let a pan-India committee rank states by their total road infrastructure and road tax utilisation. Based on that, let the committee set up rules on which state should get how much of tax collected per vehicle.

3. Let every vehicle, wherever purchased, pay a fixed LTT that goes into the account of the pan-India road department.

4. Over the lifetime of the vehicle, let this amount be distributed to state road depts according to the vehicle's travels and locations, as well as ranking of the state it is in.

5. The calculations are complex, but not impossible to set up in a fair manner.

What I mean to say is, I am happy to pay even a few lakhs of rupees off the top of my expensive SUV's showroom price as LTT. I just don't think it is fair for state RTOs to keep charging me LTTs every time I switch location. Importantly, bank loans come at the time of car purchase, not when RTOs charge separate LTTs.

On the other hand, I see an RTOs viewpoint that, if I buy a car in another state, but then use that car mostly in that RTO's state, then I should pay them something.

Given the harassment one has to go through for refunds from the government in India, I think my proposed solution - one LTT distributed to RTOs where my car is located, is fair.

This solution will reduce people's urge to cheat state governments by registering elsewhere. It will also be fair to migrants who live in different states at different times. It will also be fair to people like me who do intend to pay LTT in the state they use their car in, but in a less stressful manner. And it will be fair to state RTOs who see a need to collect taxes from vehicles using their road infrastructure.
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Old 9th February 2015, 23:20   #1145
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

As I mentioned earlier, the state (or any sane individual) would double check on when money is going out. But not when coming in. Karnataka collects road taxes based on a local law. If people pay up, they are happy. But it is the individual's responsibility to ensure a receipt is given. The reverse happens when the state has to pay out. The state has to ensure that people who claim a tax refund are genuinely moving out of the state. How can that be proven? When a NOC for re-registration is asked for. That confirms the intentions of the individual to move out of the state.
Why will I re register my car in another state if I was staying for 2 years say in KA ? You think re registering cars is as simple as just typing those 2 words like you have ? Claiming a refund of road tax in any part of the country is cumbersome and letting the road tax be in another state and paying another lakh or so in Karnataka is a mental harassment when you know if you don't re register your car, the lakh is down the drain. Please apply a little common sense. Not everyone is blessed with loads of money to just keep paying as road taxes in states. Secondly, Why should I pay 15 year road tax ? I am staying for 2 years, I ll renew it every year. If rules are more people friendly, people will willingly pay them, if the government makes them non nonsensical, people will find their own ways to evade them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I do agree that the the 1 month rule was precisely for the RTOs to crack down on non-KA vehicles. But it is very tough to prove that a person has been staying in Bengaluru for more than 6 months. After every 5 month, the chap can go to Hosur (for example), get a toll receipt and come back. Why do you think RTO clearly ambushed people (mainly the IT crowd) at their own apartment gates and office gates? They had clear intelligence that it was these folks who were evading tax for a very long time. Let all the folks who got their vehicle seized from their office or apartment gates, go to the court and prove that they were not staying in Bengaluru for more than six months. Has any one tried that? As far as I know not even a single chap who got their vehicle seized approached the courts. They paid up.
Do you time to go to court to challenge a challan that you just got for breaking a signal or parking wrongly? Some of these people are so scared at the thought of a COP in another state stopping them, that they go 'Sir Sir Sir Sir' to whatever and however the cop will talk. Most people must have paid up because they simply did not have the time or knowledge to challenge this in the court. Waseem stood up and now KA RTO is left red faced.

Let me copy paste some of the incidents posted on the facebook community which was made specially for this cause. Look how the cop even after the court order had tried to fleece the people. Bloody Gunday

Incident No 1 -

"Today I was stopped by cops in Intermediate Ring Road before EGL entrance around 12 noon. I was riding my TN bike from Ejipura to Domlur. After checking my DL and Insurance, they ask for KA Tax. I told them about the high court order. Since the constable was not ready to accept this, I went to the sub inspector (R Vijay) and politely explained the situation. He started shouting at me and told not talk rules to him. It ended up in an argument and he threatened to seize my bike. Also he ordered the constables to seize the bike. However I refused to hand over the key to cops. The sub inspector told me to produce a copy of the court order. Since I was not carrying it with me, I told him that I can get it in 15 mins. Still the sub inspector was threatening me saying that he will teach me a lesson. Later the constable let me go. The inspector was very rude, however the constables were decent.

I came to my office in EGL, took 5 copies of the order and went back to him. Inspector read the court order and thrown it away. I have given a copy to the constables also. One of the constable was a sensible guy, he thanked me for getting him a copy of the order, also he mentioned that he is not aware of the court order. Anyway, I haven't paid a single penny to them.

Incident Number 2

"I was just stopped infront of HSR police station by 3 traffic cops. As soon I got down one cop asked me for tax papers and I asked him does he has authority to ask for tax papers. Then he directed me to other side of road where 2 other cops were standing and they also questioned me same. I told him we have stay order from high court and asked them to refer the court order. Immediately he replied that he also know the order and pressed for my tax payment receipt. Immediately I asked him to give me challan and said if want can seize my vehicle, then he asked me to go.
Along wid me ther was one UA reg two wheeler guy wid whom police was demanding same. Infront of cop I told him tat if you have any issue relating to tax let me know I can help. Then cop charged him only for not wearing helmet. I regret that I missed to take names of those cops.
If any one face similar trouble pleas be bold and press for challan. If they dare to issue challan then they know the consequences of it"

I can post many more, but I hope you get the drift.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Then why stop at one month? We can extend it to six months (what was before). And then why stop at 6 months? Any body can travel any where, and stay put there for any amount of time. I can understand that the reduction of time frame for one month, was purely to increase the revenue of the state. But even when it was six months time frame, I did not find any body volunteering to pay the road tax.
Firstly, it was 11 months which was changed to 1 month, not 6 months.
Instead of finding a better system to implement the 11 month rule, the government decided it was best to be brutal and come up with a 1 month rule. 21 top ka salam to whoever came up this plan without understanding that people come for a 2 to 3 month assignment too, 2 month vacation, 6 month sabbatical and what not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Nothing stops these states from implementing similar laws and conducting similar road tax collection drives. Just because other favourite cities don't do it, does not mean Bengaluru cannot do it (and the vice versa as well).
They thankfully have something called "common sense" which stops them from implementing such drives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
2. MV Act mandates that a driving license is mandatory, and there is an minimum age limit. It violates the freedom of movement of my 10 year old nephew, who cannot drive a car and go from Palakkad to Ernakulam. Why is the law restricting the rights of movement for my poor nephew?
Salute your logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
3. During my trips to Kerala, I have to pay nearly Rs.250 as the tolls in various NHAI booths. Gross injustice, I must say. Why should I pay tolls, as the constitution guarantees "freedom of movement".
Are you paying 15 year worth of toll all on one day to use that road for a single trip or your trip that you might take for a year ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Wrong example. Coventry (UK) police may have kept all of you folks in surveillance and perhaps even posted extra police patrols. But for them to charge any person, there has to be clear cut evidence that they dealt with drugs. The Karnataka RTO has also done some thing similar. They posted extra patrols in areas where they figured out tax-defaulters would be in abundance (eg: in front of apartments, and IT office parking lots). Then they checked the vehicles, and collected evidence (parking stickers, employee ID cards etc.). And they served the notice to the driver, and seized the vehicle. Using your own example, Karnataka RTO did NOT believe that all residents staying in Sarjapur Road, or who stayed in a posh apartment complex near by were road tax defaulters. They did their home work, and placed and ambush to catch the people red-handed.
Haan, that's why they caught blackpearl and impounded his car even thought he could prove he had been in KA for less than 30 days. Please, thuggery cannot be justified in any terms whatever you might say. Just check out the title of the thread.
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Old 10th February 2015, 00:09   #1146
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Perhaps this is the precise reason why RTO folks decided to ambush folks residing in various apartments & housing societies in Bengaluru. And also the next ambushes were next to IT company parking lots & exit gates.
Yes. They are good hunters who know where and how to get hold of their prey.

On a serious note, none of these proves beyond doubt that the vehicle has stayed in Karnataka for over 30 days. Does it? Unfortunately, the sorry state of our law is that the onus is on the victim to prove that he is innocent and not on the lawmakers to prove that the accused is guilty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
How can we be so sure on the underlined part? Either they were ignorant of the law, or they had no intentions to pay up. Re-registration and paying LTT at other states, no body is really bothered with it. As I said earlier, even then request that yearly tax payments should be allowed came after the RTO folks started strong the drive. But not before that. Why??
How can we be so sure that the underlined part is wrong? I don't think it is ignorance. But like I pointed out, my vehicle has been in 5 states in the gap of 8 years. How many times do you expect me to re-register and pay my taxes and hope + pray that my balance taxes will be refunded? This is not a black and white situation of if "I want to pay" or "I want to evade". Hope you get my point. And again, I am not alone. There are 1000s like me.

I am not exactly asking for yearly tax. I am telling that vehicles older than say 3 or 5 years (a logical number) should be exempted from re-registration and Tax payment as the intention here does not seem to be tax evasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
As I mentioned earlier, the state (or any sane individual) would double check on when money is going out. But not when coming in. Karnataka collects road taxes based on a local law. If people pay up, they are happy. But it is the individual's responsibility to ensure a receipt is given. The reverse happens when the state has to pay out. The state has to ensure that people who claim a tax refund are genuinely moving out of the state. How can that be proven? When a NOC for re-registration is asked for. That confirms the intentions of the individual to move out of the state.
Well, I will agree if the concern in question is a private bank expecting the credit card dues. Unfortunately here, we are talking about a government agency. In an ideal world (or even a not so ideal world) the primary objective of a government agency should be the convenience and well being of the citizen of the state. If you think otherwise, I rest my case.

Again are we talking about "optional" payment of LTT here? Vehicle is seized and the owner is FORCED to pay the tax ASAP. It is true that he might have evaded tax. But neither giving him an opportunity nor forcing him to re-register but collecting tax only is plain day light robbery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I do agree that the the 1 month rule was precisely for the RTOs to crack down on non-KA vehicles. But it is very tough to prove that a person has been staying in Bengaluru for more than 6 months. After every 5 month, the chap can go to Hosur (for example), get a toll receipt and come back. Why do you think RTO clearly ambushed people (mainly the IT crowd) at their own apartment gates and office gates? They had clear intelligence that it was these folks who were evading tax for a very long time. Let all the folks who got their vehicle seized from their office or apartment gates, go to the court and prove that they were not staying in Bengaluru for more than six months. Has any one tried that? As far as I know not even a single chap who got their vehicle seized approached the courts. They paid up.
Haha. As if RTO is accepting Toll receipts / fuel receipts as valid items to prove that the stay has been less than 30 days. People with Other state address proof were not spared here. So be it 30 days or 6 months, toll receipts will make no difference. Hope you agree. Service records / Parking stickers / Insurance papers / Pollution certificate or a combination of these can be used as a proof for or against. We are not talking about hitec stuff here. Plain common sense stuff which can be easily implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Practical difficulties in implementation.
1. The first notice gets served by one officer, what guarantee is that he would detect the second offence as well? Karnataka RTO does not have the black-berry based system which Bengaluru Traffic Police has. So tracking repeat violation is going to be a problem.
2. How is the "making sure" of vehicle getting an NOC enforced? No one in this world would believe the oral statements given by people. So either the vehicle has to be seized or some other major document of the owner has to be seized. This was precisely what Bengaluru RTO was doing even during the last drive. They seized the vehicles. Seizing DLs, existing RC books etc. would not make any difference.
Again, if the government is not able to use proper infrastructure to implement a law, how is it justified to victimize the public? Let the lawmakers find a way to flawlessly implement the law rather than throwing the ball on the victims' court to prove him innocent.
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Old 10th February 2015, 00:10   #1147
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post


I guess, this is one point on which the current litigation has been filed in the Hon.HC of Karnataka. I mean, the move of the Karnataka is in violation of the fundamental rights guaranteed by the constitution. Off-course, I would wait for the Hon.HC to give its verdict. But that being said, assuming that "unparalleled freedom of movement" is guranteed:-
1. Why should any state levy a Motor Vehicle Tax? Does'nt that violate freedom of movement? Even if I ply between Ernakulam and Palakkad (within Kerala state), I still have to pay Kerala Motor Vehicle taxes? Is'nt that an injustice?
2. MV Act mandates that a driving license is mandatory, and there is an minimum age limit. It violates the freedom of movement of my 10 year old nephew, who cannot drive a car and go from Palakkad to Ernakulam. Why is the law restricting the rights of movement for my poor nephew?
3. During my trips to Kerala, I have to pay nearly Rs.250 as the tolls in various NHAI booths. Gross injustice, I must say. Why should I pay tolls, as the constitution guarantees "freedom of movement".

To sum it up "Freedom of Movement" comes with its own checks and balances. The state of Karnataka does not stop any one from travelling by any public transport (bus, trains, flights etc.), or by private transport. It is all allowed if the people follow the other legally established Legislations,Acts & Rules.

This isn't a point in a law suit, it's a constitutional right, the HC won't give a verdict on that because it had no business to.

1. You have no other means of transport to travel between these two places? You have to pay tax because the cmv states that you have register it, probably you find it unjust that you have to pay for fuel to travel. I can drive to Kerala in my KA registered car and nobody says I have to pay LTT because I used the same road 3 weeks in a row, law enforcement isn't extortion.

2. You might not get a license because you can't see over the steering wheel even if you're an adult , does you nephew pay tax on his pocket money? You can take him around or his parents can. A ten year old driving a Ferrari was the topic of a hot thread about parental responsibility or lack thereof. Your nephew should take the bus to school for now.

3. It's called user development fee, stop batting for freebies, owning a car means you are not exactly scraping by. When there was no toll, instead of paying 250,you'd end up spending twice the amount in fuel and average around 25kmph. Paying for convenience isn't new.

No, it doesn't, the state of Karnataka doesn't have any business putting checks and balances on constitutional rights, nor is that allowed in the current system. Legislations, Acts and Rules can't violate the Constitution, because the state ran out of money to distribute free rice.

You've been going on about the tax dodging outsiders/litigants versus the law enforcers, we have a great system to fight against unjust legislation. It seems to fly over your head that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's just. On the legal part, something you seem to be so gleeful about, how can a law be enforced when the president's assent is not given.
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Old 10th February 2015, 09:13   #1148
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Default Techie forced to pay Rs 30,000 for plying non-Karnataka registered vehicle

Today's Bangalore Mirror

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/Banga...w/46179736.cms

Let me copy paste some of the text to make it absolutely clear to people who support the KA thugs.

"The transport department blatantly violated a Karnataka High Court order, by collecting Rs 30,000 as life time tax from a techie for plying a non- Karnataka registered car on city roads.

A single bench of the Karnataka High Court had, in an interim order in November, directed the transport department not to collect lifetime tax for a time of eight weeks.

The stay order was applicable from the first week of November, but transport officials blatantly violated the directions by stopping the vehicle of Shankar Narayan Pallavaram, a native of Chennai, on 14 November on the Outer Ring Road near Silk Board junction and demanding a lifetime tax.

The official seized his documents, which he got back only after depositing the next day at the RTO office at Koramangala.

"I was travelling in my elder brother's Maruti Zen, a Tamil Nadu registered car of 2005 model when we were stopped by an official of the transport department. I showed him my driving licence, PAN Card, Company ID card. He collected all the documents and took away the car key," he said.

Narayan told the official that the car was not plying in the city and had been brought from Chennai only on October 25. "To substantiate my claim, I also submitted the toll receipts as evidence, but it cut no ice with him as he replied that people can visit Hosur to get the a toll receipt to avoid the taxes," Narayan said.

Finally, the official issued Narayan a notice that said the car had been in use for a year and demanded that he pay the tax.

"I refuse to sign on the paper as the notice was illegal and was not acceptable to me. He gave back my key and told me to collect all the documents from Koramanagala RTO the next day," recalled Shankara Narayan.

Next day, the officials at the RTO office told him that he would get back his documents only if he submitted a request letter stating that he was willing to pay the tax.

Narayan paid Rs 30,000 and got back his documents.

"I did not know then that the High Court had given a stay barring officials from collecting life time tax for non-Karnataka registered vehicle. I came to know about it only wheni saw a Bangalore Mirror story on it on a social network site," he said. Speaking to Bangalore Mirror, an officer at the Koramangala RTO said, "I am not aware of the case. The owner might have paid the tax voluntarily, but I would be able to comment on the issue only after going through the records."
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Old 10th February 2015, 10:37   #1149
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Ha great, now RTO will face the heat for contempt of court. This is what we all were waiting for.
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Old 10th February 2015, 10:54   #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum
Claiming a refund of road tax in any part of the country is cumbersome and letting the road tax be in another state and paying another lakh or so in Karnataka is a mental harassment when you know if you don't re register your car, the lakh is down the drain
Yeah, so just because getting road tax refunds from one state is a problem; so Karnataka should for-go its revenue share. Do you think the state government will allow that to happen. Sir, as per the law the vehicle owner has to pay the prescribed motor vehicle tax in the state. How he gets the money, is his problem. And how he plans to get refund from the previous state is also his problem. Karnataka government I don't think is doing a charity business here.

Quote:
I am staying for 2 years, I ll renew it every year.
I have seen two colleagues (both from Kerala), who are in Bengaluru for nearly 8 years now. One fellow started crying hoarse when his vehicle was caught. The other fellow scooted with his KL car, and did not bring it back. These two folks getting a pretty decent pay, owning apartments in the city did not bother to pa the road tax. May be you will renew it, or you may not. But from what I have seen in the last 35 years, people would dodge any payment due to the government if there is a way to escape. Why do you think government prefers "Tax Deducted at Source" (for salaried folks)? Why does the state government collect motor vehicle tax even before the vehicle is given to the owner? All precisely for the same reason.

Quote:
Most people must have paid up because they simply did not have the time or knowledge to challenge this in the court. Waseem stood up and now KA RTO is left red faced.
If you find injustice is meted out to you, then be prepared to fight it out. Waseem did that, and I appreciate him and his co-petitioners. And now let us wait for the RTO/Motor Vehicle Department to come with their statements.

Quote:
They thankfully have something called "common sense" which stops them from implementing such drives.
Yeah, "common sense" to know that they would not make much money even if they try these. Karnataka government has clearly understood the overwhelming number of non-KA cars freaking out in Bengaluru and other big cities (mainly due to the high IT population). And they decided to collect the motor vehicle tax dues. The same may not work in Kerala, where the number of such vehicles would be miniscule. I am not sure on TN (cities like Chennai etc.).

Quote:
Are you paying 15 year worth of toll all on one day to use that road for a single trip or your trip that you might take for a year ?
You did not get my point, sir. You harped on "Freedom of Movement" which is a fundamental right, as per Constitution. Which is true. Then how can the state collect some thing as a Motor Vehicle Tax? Going by your argument, even the state collecting the tax is hampering your free movement within that state, am I right? Or have you misconstrued the meaning of "Freedom of Movement" to mean "My right to drive my car in any state, without paying any road tax".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey
How many times do you expect me to re-register and pay my taxes and hope + pray that my balance taxes will be refunded?
The central government officials (mainly Defence forces) have got exemptions in the rules & regulations, regarding the re-registration business. I am not sure on the taxation part of it. So if other groups of employees (IT, BPO or what ever) is in the same situation, of frequent location changes - then they need to put pressure on the government to amend the laws. And Karnataka does not seem to be bothered in re-registrations, but on collecting the motor vehicle tax dues. The current procedures are cumbersome, I agree. But that does not become an excuse to evade the law.

Quote:
In an ideal world (or even a not so ideal world) the primary objective of a government agency should be the convenience and well being of the citizen of the state.
Yeah, then why stop it at Motor Vehicle Tax itself? The citizen should just get every thing free, and no tax to be collected in any form. People staying in Karnataka have no problems with this, as they pay the life time tax any ways. The problem is faced by the migrant populations. If you ask me Bengaluru has been fairly tolerant and accomodating to migrants. Now if the migrant's expect tax discounts and all sort of exemptions, then I don't think the state would benefit in any way.

Quote:
Again are we talking about "optional" payment of LTT here? Vehicle is seized and the owner is FORCED to pay the tax ASAP. It is true that he might have evaded tax. But neither giving him an opportunity nor forcing him to re-register but collecting tax only is plain day light robbery.
What opportunity does the tax-defaulter want? To be let gone with a warning? Vehicle is seized and kept in safe custody. Other wise are we all Raja Harischandras to pay up the tax? Then India would be a first world country by now. If vehicle is seized, there are ways to go for appeal and get it released - but yes it is cumbersome. The gentleman from Hyderabad tried it and got his vehicle released.

Quote:
People with Other state address proof were not spared here.
Other state address proof, is not very valid evidence here. For eg: The address in my passport (which is one of the most authentic documents in India), is that of Kerala. But RTO would be fools to believe that I would only stay in Kerala during my life time. The RTO needs to prove that I am using a KL registered vehicle in Karnataka for long time. If I need to prove other wise, my address proof would not suffice. I need to prove my vehicle is not running in Karnataka on a regular basis. A recently issued toll receipt would be the only credible proof. Or Karnataka should start having check posts at every entry point, to issue some kind of "tokens" to incoming vehicles. Any non-KA vehicle without this token, becomes toast.

Quote:
Service records / Parking stickers / Insurance papers / Pollution certificate or a combination of these can be used as a proof for or against.
The vehicle owner can use the same documents to prove his points. Nothing stops him from doing that. But it would be tough to prove that a person just landed up two days back, when his vehicles were getting serviced at the same work station in Bengaluru for the past 5 months.

Quote:
Again, if the government is not able to use proper infrastructure to implement a law, how is it justified to victimize the public?
Who is getting victimised here? KA vehicle owners any way have paid their LTT. The government has used the available infrastructure (RTO and their mobile squads), in checking non-KA vehicles, collecting evidence and getting the tax dues from them. What else is the expectation here? RTO would open up smart offices in every nook & cranny of the city, and just hope that non-KA folks would line up and pay the tax? . That has not happened in the last 15 years, and I don't think see it would happen hereafter as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
This isn't a point in a law suit, it's a constitutional right, the HC won't give a verdict on that because it had no business to.
I brought this point, assuming that the current Writ Petition is trying to prove that Karnataka government's taxation drive is hampering the "freedom of movement" of certain group of people. If that is not the case, then I stand to be corrected.

Quote:
1. You have no other means of transport to travel between these two places?
The non-KA vehicle owners would have a tough time proving that their only means of commute is their vehicle. Especially when there are 100s of BMTC buses, taxis, auto rickshaws plying in Bengaluru city alone. People are trying to get a tax free ride in their own vehicles, using "freedom of movement" as a pathetic excuse. Please note. Karnataka government has not denied any group of people the right to come & go, and stay in the state. But when it comes to vehicles, there are some state rules which the vehicle owners need to follow.

Quote:
Your nephew should take the bus to school for now.
So my nephew's "Freedom of Movement" is curtailed? From what I could understand from humyum's interpretation of "Freedom of Movement", that is what I could make out.

Quote:
Legislations, Acts and Rules can't violate the Constitution, because the state ran out of money to distribute free rice.
The first version of Karnataka Motor Vehicles Taxation Act was brought out some where in the year 1957. Many amendments were made after that, the last one being in the year 2014. So if this legislation was violating the constitution, how did this last for so long? The courts would have thrown it out by now. Now, the 2014 amendment was for reducing the minimum time frame to pay the LTT. Please prove how this amendment goes against the constitution? Can a reduction of 11 months to 1 month, suddenly go against the constitution guaranteed rights of "Freedom of Movement"?

Quote:
On the legal part, something you seem to be so gleeful about, how can a law be enforced when the president's assent is not given.
Law making procedure in India: Please go through this. It explains how various Acts are passed (at Central level, and then at state levels). The Taxation act, is a state level law. Only Governor's permission is required. If the MV Act gets amended, it is a Central law and that would require President's approval as well. Please focus on the section "President's approval". Will try to get some more information on this subject as well.
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Old 10th February 2015, 11:11   #1151
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Karnataka government I don't think is doing a charity business here.
Agree, they are not allowed to do looting business also in India (hope karnataka is in India). They should show the same enthusiasm for refunding the tax when the vehicle is transferred from here. Do you have any idea how much had they refunded compared to looted? Since these thugs are interested only to grab money then the court's observation makes sense, its not any banana republic. Irrespective of whether its a state's decision, if you have any idea please go through the central MV act, it should abide by the mother deed / act and the constitution of India, if karnataka still believe its part of India. It gives the states the right to enjoy the money collected through tax by following the central MV act along with some "add ons" not by removing \ reducing the constitutional rights given to the citizens of India.

Quote:
And Karnataka does not seem to be bothered in re-registrations, but on collecting the motor vehicle tax dues. The current procedures are cumbersome, I agree. But that does not become an excuse to evade the law.
If you know the MV act the RTO them selves are doing illegal money collection if its without NOC from another state so that they dont have to refund the money back. Thats why people call them money sucking leeches.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 10th February 2015 at 11:26.
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Old 10th February 2015, 11:21   #1152
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Originally Posted by ::CMS:: View Post
Agree, they are not allowed to do looting business also in India (hope karnataka is in India). They should show the same enthusiasm for refunding the tax when the vehicle is transferred from here. Do you have any idea how much had they refunded compared to looted? Since these thugs are interested only to grab money then the court's observation makes sense, its not any banana republic.
The tax refund would never be the same amount. There is a clear cut formula on how tax refunds are calculated. It gets pro-rated and reduced year on year. So if the vehicle gets transferred say after two years, don't expect the same amount you paid as LTT to be given back to you.

Quote:
Irrespective of whether its a state's decision, if you have any idea please go through the central MV act, it should abide by the mother deed / act and the constitution of India, if karnataka still believe its part of India.
1. I have gone through Central MV Act (MV Act of 1988). Please let me know which section should I refer to?
2. What is the parent Act for Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act? Which section should I refer to understand the link between the state act and the Central MV Act.
3. What articles of Constitution of India should I refer to? And what do you feel are the articles which are violated by the amendment on the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation act? And why? Please note, the Karnataka MV Taxation Act was first passed in the year 1957. It was not found against the constitution till date. What has changed now?

Note: I have been providing quotes, links and additional information when I post here . It would also help me if other's can also help me by providing addl. information which I can read up.

Last edited by sachinpk : 10th February 2015 at 11:22.
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Old 10th February 2015, 11:23   #1153
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
If you find injustice is meted out to you, then be prepared to fight it out. Waseem did that, and I appreciate him and his co-petitioners. And now let us wait for the RTO/Motor Vehicle Department to come with their statements.

Yeah, "common sense" to know that they would not make much money even if they try these. Karnataka government has clearly understood the overwhelming number of non-KA cars freaking out in Bengaluru and other big cities (mainly due to the high IT population). And they decided to collect the motor vehicle tax dues.

The central government officials (mainly Defence forces) have got exemptions in the rules & regulations, regarding the re-registration business. I am not sure on the taxation part of it. So if other groups of employees (IT, BPO or what ever) is in the same situation, of frequent location changes - then they need to put pressure on the government to amend the laws.
Again common sense is the issue with your argument. KA government is opportunist, extortionist and what not else with this set-up. This is a guilty unless proven law and that's the basic problem with this. That's why TADA was abolished. And that's the problem with AFPCA also. And that's why they are brutal because the RTO is having unreasonably high degree of discretionary power here. From my point of view, RTO should be be going to court and proving that this and that person is staying for a long time and we must make him pay road tax. Give him a challan. Vehicles should be seized if they are smuggling narcotics, not if they are from other states.

Apparently, UP government is not so smart (maybe that's why they are a poor state also). I wonder if they could ever do this in Delhi NCR. Cars do get registered in UP even though taxes are higher than Haryana/Delhi/UK.

According to you, may be Army lobbied very hard and that's why they have got special arrangement. I don't even even need to say anything here. Comparing a high priority Govt owned and operated department to poor private sector employees shows complete lack of reason.

Last edited by atnyia : 10th February 2015 at 11:30. Reason: Removed OT content, spelling error
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Old 10th February 2015, 11:41   #1154
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The tax refund would never be the same amount. There is a clear cut formula on how tax refunds are calculated. It gets pro-rated and reduced year on year. So if the vehicle gets transferred say after two years, don't expect the same amount you paid as LTT to be given back to you.
Everyone is aware of the formula as its not a special provision in karnataka. The problem is that the steps only upto calculation is happening, but no Refund. I repeat do you have any idea how much have they refunded compared to looted.


Quote:
1. I have gone through Central MV Act (MV Act of 1988). Please let me know which section should I refer to?
2. What is the parent Act for Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act? Which section should I refer to understand the link between the state act and the Central MV Act.
3. What articles of Constitution of India should I refer to? And what do you feel are the articles which are violated by the amendment on the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation act? And why? Please note, the Karnataka MV Taxation Act was first passed in the year 1957. It was not found against the constitution till date. What has changed now?

Note: I have been providing quotes, links and additional information when I post here . It would also help me if other's can also help me by providing addl. information which I can read up.
I am not here to educate anyone, take it or leave it. It seems you are in a dream land of "Republic of Karnataka" which is out of India and as you believe its noway related to Indian central MV act. But there are people still believe central MV act as the mother deed and karnataka got the provision to enjoy the tax which is the sub act of central MV act moreover the constitution of India is applicable for any act / law in India by default, it doesnt have to explicitly mention in each and every document.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 10th February 2015 at 11:46.
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Old 10th February 2015, 12:09   #1155
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Default re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Wow..so much debate on - pay or not to pay. Well, its grey.
I myself am not from this state, I bought my vehicle in KA and registered it here. Now imagine if other states implement the same rule, then I cannot drive down to my home town. I have to carry ID proof and nativity proof and passports!!
If we are to take such harsh stances on payments and bring in divides , then I think our country should just stop building those highways across states. For what are they? to drive through for days on and get back to home RTO and enjoy your vacation? Lets keep checkposts at every RTO jurisdiction.

Every interpretation has its right and wrong. As long as it is not practical, lets not take harsh stances. Thats my view.
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