Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th April 2015, 18:01   #1201
BHPian
 
avira_tk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 671
Thanked: 643 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
It kind of missed me that the Karnataka Government has passed its latest budget for this FY. And that means they now would have the revenue forecast for the year as well. A few well planned tax collection drives all across the city and immediate highways, done over a period of say 1-2 weeks can bring in a lots of money to the state's treasury.

From the link which was posted, what caught my attention was the below part.
“We will be filing one or the other, on the grounds that the petitioner has challenged the constitutional validity of the amendment and hence the stay must be applicable to all till the court’s final order on the issue is out,” he told Citizen Matters.

It may be helpful to know how the petitioner argued that there is no constitutional validity for the said amendment. The points which were raised to prove this claim, if it can be put in here it would be helpful.
You've been going on about the apparently misunderstood government and its good intentions, care to share actual figures about the tax collection under this particular head alone? A government that dreams up revenue from a source like this needs to be curtailed, no infrastructure is funded using local taxes, its mostly debt or central government schemes. 1-2 weeks to finance the budget? Do you have any evidence that the taxes due from non KA cars is that high?

An honest officer who collected 150 crores due to the state(without holding up entire rush hour traffic so that uniformed thugs could go on a powertrip) has ended up dead. The 150 crores has gone to fund the 1 rupee rice and 300 a day to-laze-off vote buying schemes the government has dreamt up without knowing where the money will come from. The KA government has done nothing for Bangalore with the taxes collected, check your beloved budget, the city got nothing new.

I hope this amendment is thrown out and some RTO thugs put in jail, the best way for the state to make twice the budget requirement is to raid the RTO officers, the money collected from these racketeers should reduce tax burdens for atleast for a decade.
avira_tk is online now   (8) Thanks
Old 10th April 2015, 19:01   #1202
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 908
Thanked: 296 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Pity that Bangalore has become such a unfriendly place. This was a city loved for its tolerance. Now it's become nationalistic.
wildsdi5530 is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 11th April 2015, 02:05   #1203
BHPian
 
Driving_Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 169
Thanked: 79 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
Pity that Bangalore has become such a unfriendly place. This was a city loved for its tolerance. Now it's become nationalistic.

Not to nitpick, but, is collecting taxes unfriendly? Going by that, only tax free countries like the UAE are friendly.

Vacating the stay is a welcome decision. The court should have fixed a deadline for defaulters to pay taxes and later on forcibly make them fall in line.

I honestly feel that the RTO should start a drive and have the non KA cars owners pay taxes (yearly/lifetime), not just in Bengaluru but across the state. (I know am inviting trouble with that statement) .
Driving_Nomad is offline  
Old 11th April 2015, 06:51   #1204
Distinguished - BHPian
 
CrAzY dRiVeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bangalore / TVM
Posts: 8,963
Thanked: 16,717 Times
Default Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad View Post
.
I honestly feel that the RTO should start a drive and have the non KA cars owners pay taxes (yearly/lifetime), not just in Bengaluru but across the state. (I know am inviting trouble with that statement) .
People who change their residence to Bangalore for more than a year has to pay the tax. (Till a uniform rule for the country is in place)

However, flagging down all out of state cars on the road and seizing them is not the correct way to enforce this tax. As we saw with the earlier drive- this hurts many innocent people as well. And creates an atmosphere of tension for the visitors too- carrying toll receipts, service bills, fuel bills etc just for a weeks' stay in Bangalore.

And 1 month is not logical too. 1 year is still understandable. For example- I have shifted residence to Bangalore two years back and payed LTT for my TN registered Punto. Thats's reasonable. But not when they say my parents who visit with their KL registered car for 1 or two months need to pay 15 years tax for using Bangalore roads for a month.

PS- There is no yearly option. Its 15 years LTT or seize the car. Then comes the pain of paying this tax at the RTO. I was literally running from one desk to another trying to get some information from them. Even though I voluntarily paid - I was asked to go surrender my car at a police check point and come back later with the challan they gave. This was before I could finally meet the RTO and he advised the staff to collect tax. Not exactly a friendly experience. I think more people would pay up if an easier (read online) option was available.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 11th April 2015 at 07:03.
CrAzY dRiVeR is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 11th April 2015, 08:54   #1205
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 908
Thanked: 296 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

@driving_nomad: sorry, that was a very vague statement on my part. I didn't mean taxes in particular. The whole culture has changed. It's become like the chennai of 15 years ago. Rude drivers, killer buses, irate cops, unhelpful babus, etc.
RTO should collect taxes, but only the excess over and above what was paid in the previous state. Onus of recovery of remain amount must be through the center. Likewise, if you relocate to a state with lower taxes, the RTO should refund the excess paid and collect the remaining from the previous RTO.
I'm yet to hear of a single person who has received a road tax refund. If anyone has, please post detailed instructions that others may try the same.
wildsdi5530 is offline  
Old 11th April 2015, 11:33   #1206
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,141
Thanked: 680 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
You've been going on about the apparently misunderstood government and its good intentions, care to share actual figures about the tax collection under this particular head alone?
I did not call any intention as good or being misunderstood. My point was mainly about checking if this new amendment is a violation of some other existing law or the constitution. I have already shared a link which says that Kerala Government is also planning to bring a similar amendment to that state's vehicle taxation law. So don't think KA govt. has done some thing illegal.

Kerala expresses concerns over Road Transport Bill
This is as of today. At least two states (KA and KL) have clearly said that motor vehicle taxation is their right, and they don't even wish to entertain the newly planned Road Transport Safety Bill.

As per around 100 vehicles were netted which generated tax revenue of 1 crore. The report is slightly dated.

Quote:
A government that dreams up revenue from a source like this needs to be curtailed, no infrastructure is funded using local taxes, its mostly debt or central government schemes. 1-2 weeks to finance the budget? Do you have any evidence that the taxes due from non KA cars is that high?
Motor Vehicle Taxation Act, which is a state act has been clearly there for ages. So this is not "dreaming up of revenue" from any source. As per today's law, collecting motor vehicle tax is a state's right. How they should go about it, is left upto them. And I did not mean that entire KA budget depends upon the tax collected from non-KA vehicles. But if this is a prospective source of income/revenue, why should it be not used?


Quote:
An honest officer who collected 150 crores due to the state(without holding up entire rush hour traffic so that uniformed thugs could go on a powertrip) has ended up dead.
Comparing of apples and oranges. We are not talking about revenue officials, district commissioners/collectors etc. The mandate for the dead officer and that of RTOs is totally different, and how they collect tax dues would also be different.

Quote:
I hope this amendment is thrown out and some RTO thugs put in jail, ....
Would you also be able to tell me in some legal terms how this amendment is illegal and should get thrown out? With a lay man's knowledge of law I have listed out why I feel the amendment is legal and not violating any constitutional provisions. If you feel other wise, please let me know those aspects. You want RTO "thugs" to be put in jail, when the new rule was passed by the state's legislature. RTO have not invented this rule, they just are enforcing the already approved (by the Governor) rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530
Pity that Bangalore has become such a unfriendly place. This was a city loved for its tolerance.
I am sorry, what do you mean by tolerance? Does that mean that any one can pop up from any where, use what ever resources available and starting all indignant when it comes to paying the state taxes? I cannot call that tolerance in any way. That is a sad state of being servile to people, who just want to enjoy all the fun without giving any thing back to the society at large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad
Vacating the stay is a welcome decision. The court should have fixed a deadline for defaulters to pay taxes and later on forcibly make them fall in line.
The court need not give a dead line. The dead line is right there in the Tax Act amendment. The time frame for paying LTT is one month.

Quote:
I honestly feel that the RTO should start a drive and have the non KA cars owners pay taxes (yearly/lifetime), not just in Bengaluru but across the state. (I know am inviting trouble with that statement)
The RTO folks generally have a good intelligence with them. They know which areas to focus. I know the jitter people in my office had after they realised that the RTO folks knows where to wait in ambush and at what time. This is not some random checking. At least during the last drive there was a "method to the madness".

Last edited by sachinpk : 11th April 2015 at 11:41. Reason: Clubbed a few other responses as well.
sachinpk is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 11th April 2015, 11:43   #1207
BHPian
 
Driving_Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 169
Thanked: 79 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
People who change their residence to Bangalore for more than a year has to pay the tax. (Till a uniform rule for the country is in place)

However, flagging down all out of state cars on the road and seizing them is not the correct way to enforce this tax. As we saw with the earlier drive- this hurts many innocent people as well. And creates an atmosphere of tension for the visitors too- carrying toll receipts, service bills, fuel bills etc just for a weeks' stay in Bangalore.

And 1 month is not logical too. 1 year is still understandable. For example- I have shifted residence to Bangalore two years back and payed LTT for my TN registered Punto. Thats's reasonable. But not when they say my parents who visit with their KL registered car for 1 or two months need to pay 15 years tax for using Bangalore roads for a month.

PS- There is no yearly option. Its 15 years LTT or seize the car. Then comes the pain of paying this tax at the RTO. I was literally running from one desk to another trying to get some information from them. Even though I voluntarily paid - I was asked to go surrender my car at a police check point and come back later with the challan they gave. This was before I could finally meet the RTO and he advised the staff to collect tax. Not exactly a friendly experience. I think more people would pay up if an easier (read online) option was available.

More/less than a year is for the state govt to decide. Yes, they can bring in a people/tourist friendly timeline, but knowing our netas, do you think they'd really care?

Goa state collects an entry fee of Rs.200 (if my memory's intact) for visiting non GA white license plate cars. Now my friend, is that friendly? People don't bother about it because it's 200. Had it been 2000 we'd have seen a different story unfold.

Other than flagging down, how else would they ensure people fall in line? If people were pro active (majority aren't, and I am sure there are many who are), the whole drive wouldn't have taken place. Don't you feel so?

Seizing defaulters' cars is valid and by the book. Creating inconvenience for tourists IMHO is not acceptable. And I am sure with valid proofs (toll tkts, emission certificates, fuel receipts) the cops would definitely be polite and let go. They'd ask for other documents but that's a different thing altogether.

I am sorry for your plight at the RTO, but that's the bitter truth about most of the govt offices in India. But you can proudly say you didn't bribe or go through an agent.
OT: Again, there's nothing called as an agent in RTOs. They are all brokers who get work done and also bribe the officers, thereby, spoiling the whole system. I have atleast got done 8 different kinds of jobs at RTOs and haven't had the need to use the services of a broker or bribe anytime.

Yes I know there's no yearly option😄. I just said they could bring in one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@driving_nomad: sorry, that was a very vague statement on my part. I didn't mean taxes in particular. The whole culture has changed. It's become like the chennai of 15 years ago. Rude drivers, killer buses, irate cops, unhelpful babus, etc.
RTO should collect taxes, but only the excess over and above what was paid in the previous state. Onus of recovery of remain amount must be through the center. Likewise, if you relocate to a state with lower taxes, the RTO should refund the excess paid and collect the remaining from the previous RTO.
I'm yet to hear of a single person who has received a road tax refund. If anyone has, please post detailed instructions that others may try the same.

You don't have to apologize at all sir. I understand what the point is.
Driving_Nomad is offline  
Old 11th April 2015, 14:09   #1208
BHPian
 
vinayrathore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: DL-9C/KA-01
Posts: 528
Thanked: 306 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

And 1 month is not logical too. 1 year is still understandable.

PS- There is no yearly option. Its 15 years LTT or seize the car. Then comes the pain of paying this tax at the RTO. I was literally running from one desk to another trying to get some information from them. Even though I voluntarily paid - I was asked to go surrender my car at a police check point and come back later with the challan they gave. This was before I could finally meet the RTO and he advised the staff to collect tax. Not exactly a friendly experience. I think more people would pay up if an easier (read online) option was available.
So true Crazy Driver. 30 days is too unjust. An yearly tax which one can pay online would do much good to this issue at large and the state will start getting the due revenue in a more transparent way without raising any kind of remorse in hearts of the tax payer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The court need not give a dead line. The dead line is right there in the Tax Act amendment. The time frame for paying LTT is one month.
Is it totally logical and just in having the tax deadline as 30 days? Isn't it too short a time frame? I understand its states prerogative, but shouldn't the general welfare of the people take precedence in such cases?
vinayrathore is offline  
Old 12th April 2015, 10:46   #1209
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 595
Thanked: 632 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad View Post
I honestly feel that the RTO should start a drive and have the non KA cars owners pay taxes (yearly/lifetime), not just in Bengaluru but across the state. (I know am inviting trouble with that statement) .
If I was a resident of Bengaluru with a MH registered car I would not mind paying taxes. In fact I'd rather even change registration. But being flagged down by police when I drive down to visit my cousin and uncle who stay there and refusing to believe that I'm not a resident even when I show them proof of my residence and business in Pune is absolutely wrong and un-friendly.

I have stopped driving to anything south of Hubli two years ago.

Rahul
Rahul Rao is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 12th April 2015, 13:08   #1210
Senior - BHPian
 
theexperthand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,369
Thanked: 1,136 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I have already shared a link which says that Kerala Government is also planning to bring a similar amendment to that state's vehicle taxation law. So don't think KA govt. has done some thing illegal.
.
Sachin, most of the people (including me) who are against the drive is NOT because they are forcing to pay LTT, But because the time given to it (30 days) is too less. That is where the Kerala Government differs from KA - in KL, you can pay a very nominal tax if your stay is between 3 months and 1 year. If KA can take a similar stand, most of the griverence in this thread will be addressed.

--Anoop
theexperthand is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 12th April 2015, 14:19   #1211
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,141
Thanked: 680 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
Sachin, most of the people (including me) who are against the drive is NOT because they are forcing to pay LTT, But because the time given to it (30 days) is too less. That is where the Kerala Government differs from KA - in KL, you can pay a very nominal tax if your stay is between 3 months and 1 year. If KA can take a similar stand, most of the griverence in this thread will be addressed.
After being in Bangalore for nearly 15 years and seeing the number of non-KA vehicles plying in Bangalore for years together AND seeing the attitude of those vehicle owners, what I came to realise is that - Even if the time period is 1 year, 18 months or 2 years, FAT chance that these people would pay any road tax.

I know I am sounding too cynical here. But given a chance to escape, the non-KA vehicle owners will just find some way to dodge the tax. The excuse that now give them a chance to use the vehicles for 11 months, and they would promptly pay up etc. are just what they are - pathetic excuses when they knew their goose was cooked. Today because of the active drive against non-KA vehicles, the owners have started feeling the pain. So when the pain becomes unbearable these folks ask for exemptions etc. Why all these request for exemptions now? They could have paid the taxes when the vehicles were being used for more than 11 months in the state, right? At that time the excuse was the the original state is slow in refunding the LTT (which govt. of KA has no way to influence), so the taxes due for KA can be dodged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinayrathore
So true Crazy Driver. 30 days is too unjust. An yearly tax which one can pay online would do much good to this issue at large and the state will start getting the due revenue in a more transparent way without raising any kind of remorse in hearts of the tax payer.
I beg to differ. If people were so honest and upright they would have paid the LTT once they knew their non-KA vehicle was put to use in KA for more than 11 months. That was when before the amendment was brought in. Nobody bothered about paying the taxes. Let us admit this simple fact. Given a chance we Indians would dodge any tax. Government gets a majority of the income tax dues mainly because of the Tax Deducted Source (TDS) which all the companies have to now follow strictly. I am okay for on-line payments etc., but that also should have strict mechanisms to ensure that the people actual pay up. Impounding the vehicles/seizing the documents and a provision to pay the tax online is a good idea. Take a print out of the online payment receipt go to the RTO and the vehicle/documents gets released.

Quote:
Is it totally logical and just in having the tax deadline as 30 days? Isn't it too short a time frame? I understand its states prerogative, but shouldn't the general welfare of the people take precedence in such cases?
As I said, I am very cynical on this whole issue. Even when the time frame was pretty long (11 months), the people did not bother to pay up the tax dues to the government. When people/citizens themselves are not bothered to pay tax and increase the "general welfare" of society at large, why should the state government show any leniency?

---
To the folks who say 30 days is unjust, can they also help me with the figures/numbers on LTT collected by KA government (from non-KA vehicle owners) when the time period was 11 months, which many people feel as a "justified" time frame?

Last edited by sachinpk : 12th April 2015 at 14:29. Reason: Multiple responses clubbed into one..
sachinpk is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 12th April 2015, 16:01   #1212
BHPian
 
Driving_Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 169
Thanked: 79 Times
Default Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
After being in Bangalore for nearly 15 years and seeing the number of non-KA vehicles plying in Bangalore for years together AND seeing the attitude of those vehicle owners, what I came to realise is that - [u]Even if the time period is 1 year, ...

+1 to this. I echo your thoughts but didn't go on and post because people would have pounced left right and centre.

Bringing in a tightly coupled mechanism for vehicle insurance, traffic fines and road tax like in the UAE is the best solution to all this.
Driving_Nomad is offline  
Old 12th April 2015, 16:15   #1213
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N.A
Posts: 6,834
Thanked: 1,503 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Some highly jingoistic comments here lately. Imagine the free-for-all if every state started implementing a 30-day rule - there would be no freedom of movement throughout the country.

The excuse that 'non-KA people won't pay tax whatever the period' to justify the 30-day rule is pathetic at best. That sort of mindset will only unleash petty tit-for-tat responses.

Having travelled through several countries, I am yet to come across one where a region/state within imposes a tax on vehicles from other regions in the country that ply > 30 days. I'm sure one can Google up exceptional instances, but that shouldn't be used to justify a patently stupid rule.

Nor have I seen wilful victimisation in the name of such a rule that happens all the time in KA.

Last edited by Steeroid : 12th April 2015 at 16:16.
Steeroid is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 12th April 2015, 16:57   #1214
Senior - BHPian
 
sdp1975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,592
Thanked: 920 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I've heard of 2 cities where forcible tax collection happens - the first of course is Bangalore, the second is Hyderabad , probably at an extent lesser than Bangalore.

There are states that have much poorer finances than KA and TS. How do they manage without taxing other state vehicles ?

The tax collection in KA was mainly to finance the Rs 1/kg rice Anna Bhagya Scheme - the big white elephant that was draining the state by a whopping 5000 Cr every year. Even the Centre doesn't have this kind of money , and a state trying to finance this is unthinkable. Of course, the state debt has increased and the allocation for the scheme has been cut down to 2K crore now. Apart from able bodied men and women being given food for free, there has been reported pilferage and corruption in the scheme.

Btw, I was planning on a Ladakh trip a few years from now. Probably all states will have a lifetime tax rule by then, and Ill have to pay tax for all the 6-7 states en route Ladakh.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 12th April 2015 at 16:59.
sdp1975 is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 12th April 2015, 17:55   #1215
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,577
Thanked: 816 Times
Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Some highly jingoistic comments here lately. Imagine the free-for-all if every state started implementing a 30-day rule - there would be no freedom of movement throughout the country.

The excuse that 'non-KA people won't pay tax whatever the period' to justify the 30-day rule is pathetic at best. That sort of mindset will only unleash petty tit-for-tat responses.

Having travelled through several countries, I am yet to come across one where a region/state within imposes a tax on vehicles from other regions in the country that ply > 30 days. I'm sure one can Google up exceptional instances, but that shouldn't be used to justify a patently stupid rule.

Nor have I seen wilful victimisation in the name of such a rule that happens all the time in KA.
Having stayed in U.S for more than a decade, the first thing one does when you move to another state is get the registration transferred and pay up whats due and get a new license. Now this is really required because you need the license for address proof.

In our country nothing of this sort is necessary since you can have different documents for different purpose.

I am against the 30 days rule. But will people voluntarily pay up after 11 months, we have heard so many tactics being propounded in this forum of how to go our of the state, get a toll ticket etc.

If there was a fool proof way of determining change of residence I dont think any of this would be necessary. The system is not fair and people are part of the problematic system, not outside of it.

Last edited by srishiva : 12th April 2015 at 17:57.
srishiva is online now   (3) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buy car in state or out of state (Major price difference) autoenthusiast The Indian Car Scene 49 14th July 2017 01:21
Karnataka RTO - sms RTO to get Vehicle details 71Convertible The Indian Car Scene 83 8th October 2016 08:09
Where should I sell the car: State of Registration or Current State? m_upreti The Indian Car Scene 50 12th July 2016 17:38
RTO problems for transfering in own state vipinshetty The Indian Car Scene 5 20th February 2013 17:13


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 14:07.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks