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Old 12th April 2015, 17:56   #1216
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Does that mean that any one can pop up from any where, use what ever resources available and starting all indignant when it comes to paying the state taxes? I cannot call that tolerance in any way. That is a sad state of being servile to people, who just want to enjoy all the fun without giving any thing back to the society at large.
This is the crux of the problem. KA has amongst the highest road tax for cars and also amongst the highest pricing of Petrol/Diesel. Levying taxes for infrastructure is great, but where is the infrastructure. The conditions of roads here is alarmingly poor.

It is unfair to assume that people who have moved (or are visiting) to Bangalore are not paying state taxes. Road Tax is a life time tax and all of us have paid it. I can understand specific cases of buying high-end luxury car in Pondicherry and driving it in Bangalore, but in my case I have paid almost an equivalent amount of road tax registering my car in Bombay. Why should I pay the complete amount again. It is grossly unfair. The truth is that people are increasingly mobile now a days and rules need to change in light of this. We are not a collection of states, but a united nation and we need to behave like that.

What I think government should do
1. Increase the current deadline from 1 to minimum 3 months.
2. Provide an option for short time tax payment e.g. 1 yr / 2 yrs / 5 yrs.
3. For people who want to move permanently, we should have a mechanism of paying (or claiming for refund) the differential road tax and have the states transfer as per some defined agreement.
4. If #3 is not feasible, ensure road tax refunds are the norm (and not a rarity). If I can get refund of road tax from the original state, why would i not want to pay road tax in the new state?

Rules and policies need to be for the people to work FOR the government and not AGAINST the government.
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Old 12th April 2015, 19:41   #1217
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

We live in India, not in KA or WB or any other place.

If we transfer residence, local RTO has all right to collect taxes because we would be using their resources. But, this tax must be collected from the other RTO. or, like we have to collect NOC first before transferring registration, amount must be refunded first and then paid in the new RTO prorated for registration, Isn't that fair? because, after all, we live in India.

Does that happen? Never. So in reality, for a 7 lakhs car, if we stay in 7 states for more than 1 month each, I would be paying taxes more than the vehicle value. Refund process is there, but nobody seems to get prompt refund (as opposed to prompt collection of taxes).

I stayed in US for extended period too, lets not compare the status. I shifted residence to WA from CA, drove CA registered car and finally sold it, it was not illegal and nobody stopped me ever. When accidents happen, police comes on the spot, issues document, submit that doc to the service center, the other partys insurance pays it, its that prompt, so whenever there is an accident, there is no argument, no road rage, because the repair would be cashless anyway.

Collecting tax is good, but not by double charging citizens. The so called tax evaders here, are not really evaders, they have already paid tax, they all live in India, why charge taxes again (double charging) without refunding.
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Old 12th April 2015, 22:51   #1218
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

People who are supporting the current RTO rule will realize the pain when they move to a different state for a month or two and that respective RTO asks them to pay the road tax for 15 years.

Yes, if someone is not paying the road tax as per the 11 month rule then RTO can flag them and force them to pay. But changing the rule to one month period and flagging the temporary visitors as well is not acceptable. In my opinion this is ridiculous.
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Old 12th April 2015, 23:36   #1219
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
The system is not fair and people are part of the problematic system, not outside of it.
That is incorrect. People will try to avoid any system that demands that you pay up lifetime tax twice in two different states. Why do they try to avoid it? Because the governments that use police force to collect tax the second time does not move a finger to help them get a refund for the first.

If on the other hand the requirement was only to pay the differential in taxes between the two states (the reverse must also hold true - refund any excess), and the original tax paid is settled in the intra-state accounts (which I am sure exists in some form), I am sure most people would rather pay up the differential.

However our Governments - and ESPECIALLY the Karnataka government - prefers to harass individuals rather than come up with an equitable system of settlement.

What is happening in Karnataka today is state-sponsored tax terrorism, masquerading as a legitimate drive and fuelled by regional jingoism. The same can be done by all other states - why do they not do so with the same amount of nastiness, and what is so special about Karnataka in the whole of India? What if all the neighbouring states started similar drives against KA vehicles?
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Old 13th April 2015, 09:39   #1220
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad
Bringing in a tightly coupled mechanism for vehicle insurance, traffic fines and road tax like in the UAE is the best solution to all this.
The proposed Road Transport Safety Bill is supposed to fix many of such problems in the next 4-5 years. After this law gets implemented (when is the question?), in a year every state would have to come up with systems which allows sharing of DL information, Registration information and also have an internal mechanism to share taxes. To be honest, the new bill takes a holistic view and plans to address some new set of problems, those which did not exist in 1988. But very many states (especially Southern States) have clearly raised red flag on this. And as we all know, current Central Government does not have a good majority in Rajya Sabha (whose MPs comes from the states).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
The excuse that 'non-KA people won't pay tax whatever the period' to justify the 30-day rule is pathetic at best. That sort of mindset will only unleash petty tit-for-tat responses.
Will you be able to provide some good information to prove that non-KA vehicle owners HAPPILY paid the LTT, when the old rule was in place? That is they were all great honest individuals who promptly paid LTT as soon as the vehicle was put to use for more than 11 months in KA? From what information I have (you can prove me wrong), non-KA vehicle owners just ignored this and enjoyed driving around the whole of the state. They started crying out loud when the RTO came knocking home.

Quote:
The same can be done by all other states - why do they not do so with the same amount of nastiness, and what is so special about Karnataka in the whole of India? What if all the neighbouring states started similar drives against KA vehicles?
Let the states try that. KA government may be great arm-twisters, but they are not fools. Just think about the cities in India which provides maximum job opportunities for people from all across India. See the pattern of migration. There are some places where people readily agree to migrate to. Bangalore in Karnataka is one of those. Other could be Hyderabad. So these states have more chances to take additional revenue through effective road tax collection. The other states can try the same. But how much money they can generate is a big question. Karnataka as a state has given lots of incentives for big businesses to open shops there, which also brought in large scale employement opportunities. Other states could have done that, but they missed the boat. KA government did not do this for charity, they are also ensuring that the benefits also comes to them (through taxes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975
There are states that have much poorer finances than KA and TS. How do they manage without taxing other state vehicles ?
For these so-called poorer states, do we see large number of out of state vehicles roaming around that state (on a regular basis)? For many of the poorer state incentive for any person to go and settle down there is very less. So naturally the states would be in a better position to ignore this, or else even more people would try to move away from the state. Karnataka and Telengana sees a large migration of work force to its cities of Bangalore, Hyderabad respectively. That is because of the job opportunities which is available. So it is quite natural for the state to ensure that their tax dues also come in, as people land up from all across India, for utilising the facilities which the state has provided.

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Btw, I was planning on a Ladakh trip a few years from now. Probably all states will have a lifetime tax rule by then, and Ill have to pay tax for all the 6-7 states en route Ladakh.
Enjoy your Ladakh trip . But in the states where LTT collection drive is high (eg: Karnataka), you still have one month grace period. Only thing would be to ensure that your non-KA vehicle leaves KA state within one month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinayak
It is unfair to assume that people who have moved (or are visiting) to Bangalore are not paying state taxes. Road Tax is a life time tax and all of us have paid it.
Life time Tax is a state revenue, it is not shared across state. So when you say you have paid LTT in another state, that state would not share it with LTT. I agree Karnataka has got very many laws which allows too many taxes & cess. There is a Bangalore city specific Fuel cess of Rs.1. The state authorities are clearly giving a message i.e "Pay these taxes, or else you are always allowed to move else where". Even the people who whine about the injustice, do NOT have much plans to go back to their mother states (for what ever reasons).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumannandy
We live in India, not in KA or WB or any other place.

If we transfer residence, local RTO has all right to collect taxes because we would be using their resources. But, this tax must be collected from the other RTO. or, like we have to collect NOC first before transferring registration, amount must be refunded first and then paid in the new RTO prorated for registration, Isn't that fair? because, after all, we live in India.
Sir, all these arguments have already been brought up here, and they do not have any justification. What we feel the government ought to do, are all just our own suggestions and justifications. As it stands today, road taxes are levied by the respective state. Return of tax refunds is a responsibility between the state and the vehicle owner (not between states). Sure we can try changing all that, but till then it is the law. And law cannot be ignored (or not implemented) till every one reaches a consensus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_josie
Yes, if someone is not paying the road tax as per the 11 month rule then RTO can flag them and force them to pay. But changing the rule to one month period and flagging the temporary visitors as well is not acceptable. In my opinion this is ridiculous.
You are taking a stance that RTO and KA government are thugs, and all the motor vehicle owners are innocent baby angels. The sad part is that all are equally thugs and would try to win the situation. People would just ensure that they go out of the state once every 1-2 months, collect the toll receipts and come back. And instead of condoning some thing which is morally/ethically wrong (not legally wrong), every one out there would call the person a smart person, who knows how to save money (by not paying tax). That fellow would get a hero's welcome. I can write and give it you, if the 11 month rule is brought back no person having KL registration vehicles would ever have to pay LTT.

Last edited by sachinpk : 13th April 2015 at 09:48.
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Old 13th April 2015, 09:45   #1221
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
That is incorrect. People will try to avoid any system that demands that you pay up lifetime tax twice in two different states. Why do they try to avoid it? Because the governments that use police force to collect tax the second time does not move a finger to help them get a refund for the first.

If on the other hand the requirement was only to pay the differential in taxes between the two states (the reverse must also hold true - refund any excess), and the original tax paid is settled in the intra-state accounts (which I am sure exists in some form), I am sure most people would rather pay up the differential.

However our Governments - and ESPECIALLY the Karnataka government - prefers to harass individuals rather than come up with an equitable system of settlement.

What is happening in Karnataka today is state-sponsored tax terrorism, masquerading as a legitimate drive and fuelled by regional jingoism. The same can be done by all other states - why do they not do so with the same amount of nastiness, and what is so special about Karnataka in the whole of India? What if all the neighbouring states started similar drives against KA vehicles?
I think it is unfair to blame KA govt, because: Collecting RTO tax is in the purview of respective State Govt until there is uniform law that provides equitable system in the country for RTO tax at national level.
I have seen personally many times, that during accidents or road rage, it is very difficult to track NON-KA registered vehicles and also RTO tax is paid to enable KA govt. to provide better infrastructure.

I think it is totally unfair to say "Karnataka" is state-sponsored tax terrorism and regional jingoism. If people like to think otherwise , are at there own personal freedom to make choice of staying at other states in india.

Yes, earlier if i understand correctly, time was given to all vehicle owners to Convert to KA registrations. But how-many of them came forward pro-actively to pay Road-tax for NON-KA vehicles??
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Old 13th April 2015, 09:57   #1222
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

The system may be legit but what about the mechanism? Should all the states then not act proactively? When you approach a particular RTO for NOC why cannot they simply refund the remaining proportionate value of tax paid to them, so that the average individual then submits the NOC and the refund value to the next RTO. That would make life simple for all, no? But what happens, the entire system is slow and corrupt. You end up spending valuable time and energy, not to mention resources too, running from pillar top post to get the vehicle transferred and re registered. This is Sir what makes you and me susceptible to shortcuts and be branded thugs. Its the system that corrupts you first and not vice versa.
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:31   #1223
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by navrddy View Post
Yes, earlier if i understand correctly, time was given to all vehicle owners to Convert to KA registrations. But how-many of them came forward pro-actively to pay Road-tax for NON-KA vehicles??
I can stand tall and say that i paid the road tax for my TN registered santro voluntarily at Koramangala RTO. I paid Rs 32407 as road tax considering 4 years of depreciation while i paid Rs 23960 for the brand new vehicle when i purchased the same in chennai.
Now dont you think something is wrong here. How can the road tax considering depreciation be more than the tax paid at the time of purchase of the new vehicle. This is what is disgusting to all the outsiders. Also nobody is a millionaire just because he/she is a white collar employee. When the govt tweaks the rule from 11 months to 30 days to fill it's coffers, the same urgency is not shown while returning the amount to the user. I am not talking about KA RTO in particular but to all RTO's.
I have begun to accept this GOLDEN STATEMENT.

"Money going to govt and dead body going to graveyard are one and the same. They will never come back."
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:44   #1224
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

this is the result of arrogance and it has gone to the head. I have been reading this page for 3 days and the only reasoning that comes to me is that KA govt feels that they have won the race with respect to IT and neighbouring states are now far behind to catch up. Hyderabad has shot itself in the foot with Telangana issue and Chennai fell behind for variety of reasons chief of which being climate. And now Bangalore is undisputed king of this race and now the govt is emboldened enough to extract it's pound of flesh.

This is just the beginnning and soon after this issue is settled there will be new taxes imposed on outsiders in the state. This is just the beginning.
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:46   #1225
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by suresh_gs
I can stand tall and say that i paid the road tax for my TN registered santro voluntarily at Koramangala RTO. I paid Rs 32407 as road tax considering 4 years of depreciation while i paid Rs 23960 for the brand new vehicle when i purchased the same in chennai.
Even I paid the LTT for my first vehicle (which came in from KL), and did not even bother for a refund from KL. The vehicle was in use for nearly 7 years in KA, and then I shipped it back to KL. One thing, KA has one the highest prices for vehicles as well. So don't know on which amount that they calculated depreciation on. The value of the same vehicle in KA, or than in TN.

Quote:
This is what is disgusting to all the outsiders. Also nobody is a millionaire just because he/she is a white collar employee. When the govt tweaks the rule from 11 months to 30 days to fill it's coffers, the same urgency is not shown while returning the amount to the use.
The government was forced to tweak the rule because it realised that lots of tax money due to it is neatly being taken away. No "out sider" was bothered about this then. But when the going gets tough, people start making excuses. As I mentioned earlier today, it is more like non-KA people want to come to KA (or Bangalore), than Bangalore wanting non-KA people . Think about it, the state has earned a lot of money thanks to IT etc. And sooner or later it can say that enough is enough, people who are cribbing of higher taxes can just march off to another place they choose. Think about a situation when no one wants to come to KA (for what ever reasons), then KA would be forced to give incentives (reduce taxes, reduce vehicle costs etc.).
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:47   #1226
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Will you be able to provide some good information to prove that non-KA vehicle owners HAPPILY paid the LTT, when the old rule was in place? That is they were all great honest individuals who promptly paid LTT as soon as the vehicle was put to use for more than 11 months in KA? From what information I have (you can prove me wrong), non-KA vehicle owners just ignored this and enjoyed driving around the whole of the state. They started crying out loud when the RTO came knocking home.
Please, don't be generic with your assumptions. I know many non-KA owners who have paid LTT even before this rule change, including me. And I really didn't wait for the 11 month period to end once I was sure that I will be in bangalore for more than a year.

Quote:
You are taking a stance that RTO and KA government are thugs, and all the motor vehicle owners are innocent baby angels. The sad part is that all are equally thugs and would try to win the situation. People would just ensure that they go out of the state once every 1-2 months, collect the toll receipts and come back. And instead of condoning some thing which is morally/ethically wrong (not legally wrong), every one out there would call the person a smart person, who knows how to save money (by not paying tax). That fellow would get a hero's welcome. I can write and give it you, if the 11 month rule is brought back no person having KL registration vehicles would ever have to pay LTT.
When RTO is hell-bent to collect the LTT even by deploying external agencies, do you think it will be difficult for them to come up with a mechanism to track the private vehicles on how frequently they are doing Exit/Entry at the border? And from this data they can't find who is living where? Also, instead of this 1 month period they can even modify the 11 month period rule accordingly for the people who are trying to escape with this toll thing.

There are many options open for KA RTO, but they have taken the easiest way to collect this fund.
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Old 13th April 2015, 10:59   #1227
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by lurker
This is just the beginnning and soon after this issue is settled there will be new taxes imposed on outsiders in the state. This is just the beginning.
Any state can only levy any tax based on existing legal frameworks. As far as I could figure out on the LTT case the government has played the game by the book. So taxing any body just for being an "out sider" would not be possible. One more thing which needs to get highlighted here is the skewed development. IT which was the job provider for the last 20 odd years essentially is focussed on the Southern states (TS,AP,TN,KA). Where as other state governments could also think about upgrading their state infrastructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_josie
I know many non-KA owners who have paid LTT even before this rule change, including me. And I really didn't wait for the 11 month period to end once I was sure that I will be in bangalore for more than a year.
Okay. So we have three of us here already . But that does not mean that majority of people would have paid up. Keeping the same sample size (of three), I myself know three others who had dodged the tax. Two of them paid when their vehicles were impounded, one ran away o KL and deposited his vehicle there.

Quote:
There are many options open for KA RTO, but they have taken the easiest way to collect this fund.
It is a natural thing to right, sir? Why should KA RTO come up with an expensive system to basically catch tax defaulters? Having manned check points in all exit points, checking entry/exit of each and every non-KA vehicle, then doing some kind of big data analysis to identify the pattern of entries and exits, then identifying the tax defaulters, sending them legal notices (to which address??) and hoping them to pay up is all waste of money. Even in the last tax collection drive majority of the people have NOT been able to prove that they were not staying at Bangalore. Yes, there were a couple of out-lier cases which we have discussed quite in detail here.
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Old 13th April 2015, 11:01   #1228
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Even I paid the LTT for my first vehicle (which came in from KL), and did not even bother for a refund from KL. The vehicle was in use for nearly 7 years in KA, and then I shipped it back to KL. One thing, KA has one the highest prices for vehicles as well. So don't know on which amount that they calculated depreciation on. The value of the same vehicle in KA, or than in TN.


The government was forced to tweak the rule because it realised that lots of tax money due to it is neatly being taken away. No "out sider" was bothered about this then. But when the going gets tough, people start making excuses. As I mentioned earlier today, it is more like non-KA people want to come to KA (or Bangalore), than Bangalore wanting non-KA people . Think about it, the state has earned a lot of money thanks to IT etc. And sooner or later it can say that enough is enough, people who are cribbing of higher taxes can just march off to another place they choose. Think about a situation when no one wants to come to KA (for what ever reasons), then KA would be forced to give incentives (reduce taxes, reduce vehicle costs etc.).
Sachin, The primary reason why users want to evade paying tax is that it is a one way traffic right now. The moment he/she shifts base to another state, tax has to be paid. But what about the refund. This is where all users feel cheated in that when it comes to paying road tax, it has to be done promptly but when it comes to refunding the excess amount back to the user, it takes its own time. And to get our money back from the RTO / govt, he/she has to make multiple trips. We cannot leave very often and ultimately we are forced to spend from our pocket.
When S M Krishna was the CM, he hiked the road tax to develop bangalore which was understandable and is evident now. But what about the successive CM's. Development in bangalore started a downhill trend while the same road tax structure prevailed. And i dont understand on what basis the tax slab has been formulated in bangalore. The brand new vehicle tax is X Rs while the tax to be paid in KA considering depreciation is much more than X.
I think the govt should focus on this aspect which they will not.
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Old 13th April 2015, 11:07   #1229
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
People who are supporting the current RTO rule will realize the pain when they move to a different state for a month or two and that respective RTO asks them to pay the road tax for 15 years.

Yes, if someone is not paying the road tax as per the 11 month rule then RTO can flag them and force them to pay. But changing the rule to one month period and flagging the temporary visitors as well is not acceptable. In my opinion this is ridiculous.
I realize the pain without moving to a different state. The one month is ridiculous. I am pointing why it was made in the first place. How many people move to a different state for 1 or 2 months with their vehicle. It would be less than the number of people who stayed beyond a year and did not pay the tax.

We can argue about this number all we want based on our fixed position in this debate :( Talking about high road taxes and bad infrastructure is non-issue because the whole state pays this and not all of them are in IT also.

Last edited by srishiva : 13th April 2015 at 11:08.
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Old 13th April 2015, 11:10   #1230
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Let the states try that. KA government may be great arm-twisters, but they are not fools. Just think about the cities in India which provides maximum job opportunities for people from all across India. See the pattern of migration. There are some places where people readily agree to migrate to. Bangalore in Karnataka is one of those. Other could be Hyderabad. So these states have more chances to take additional revenue through effective road tax collection. The other states can try the same. But how much money they can generate is a big question. Karnataka as a state has given lots of incentives for big businesses to open shops there, which also brought in large scale employement opportunities. Other states could have done that, but they missed the boat. KA government did not do this for charity, they are also ensuring that the benefits also comes to them (through taxes).


For these so-called poorer states, do we see large number of out of state vehicles roaming around that state (on a regular basis)? For many of the poorer state incentive for any person to go and settle down there is very less. So naturally the states would be in a better position to ignore this, or else even more people would try to move away from the state. Karnataka and Telengana sees a large migration of work force to its cities of Bangalore, Hyderabad respectively. That is because of the job opportunities which is available. So it is quite natural for the state to ensure that their tax dues also come in, as people land up from all across India, for utilising the facilities which the state has provided.
sachinpk, your arguments are based on the argument that KA is doing a great favor to outsiders by providing employment opportunities and they should pay their "dues". People already pay VAT, excise, registration fees, etc etc directly to the State, they can do without another instance of tax terrorism . Remember that there are numerous PSUs and educational institutions funded from Central Govt money that run in KA - money contributed by the entire nation.

Living in a country is all about giving and taking. Visit Delhi and Mumbai, where there's a much larger migrant population but no such victimization. Delhi has the highest number of out of state cars as well.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 13th April 2015 at 11:24.
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