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Old 13th April 2015, 11:13   #1231
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Even if the time period is 1 year, 18 months or 2 years, FAT chance that these people would pay any road tax.

I know I am sounding too cynical here. But given a chance to escape, the non-KA vehicle owners will just find some way to dodge the tax. The excuse that now give them a chance to use the vehicles for 11 months, and they would promptly pay up etc. are just what they are - pathetic excuses when they knew their goose was cooked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

You are taking a stance that RTO and KA government are thugs, and all the motor vehicle owners are innocent baby angels. The sad part is that all are equally thugs and would try to win the situation.
Sachin, Can you kindly stop generalizing that outside people will not pat tax blah blah blah... May be around your circle it is true, but that do not give you a license to generalize - I have known more than few people who have voluntarily paid KA road tax, so if I take a leaf out of your comments, I can very well generalize that people are not thugs. Let us stick to the topic and stop painting people with yellow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Please, don't be generic with your assumptions. I know many non-KA owners who have paid LTT even before this rule change, including me. And I really didn't wait for the 11 month period to end once I was sure that I will be in bangalore for more than a year.

There are many options open for KA RTO, but they have taken the easiest way to collect this fund.
Exactly - they (KA RTO) just took the easiest route available and as usual.

If any one thinks RTO is treating every one fair, please take a look here - http://www.bangaloremirror.com/banga...w/39700761.cms

--Anoop
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Old 13th April 2015, 11:47   #1232
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh_gs
The primary reason why users want to evade paying tax is that it is a one way traffic right now. The moment he/she shifts base to another state, tax has to be paid. But what about the refund. This is where all users feel cheated in that when it comes to paying road tax, it has to be done promptly but when it comes to refunding the excess amount back to the user, it takes its own time.
I understand, but we have covered the point earlier. KA RTO's job (regarding a newly entered vehicle) is to check and collect the tax dues. It has no onus (or inclination) to ensure that the previous state has refunded the money to the vehicle owner. The parties are always KA RTO-->Vehicle owner, and non-KA-RTO-->Vehicle owner. The existing rules are a slow and pain staking, but can that be taken as an excuse to evade tax? Again when it comes to the refund process. By mistake I placed an on-line order for the same article twice. Money also was deducted from my credit card twice. Now I have asked for a refund. The on-line traders clearly said it would take 10 days for the money to come back. These on-line traders are not any government agency, but again when it comes to giving a refund every one is a bit slow . And onus is now on me to call them up and make sure that the money comes in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva
I am pointing why it was made in the first place. How many people move to a different state for 1 or 2 months with their vehicle. It would be less than the number of people who stayed beyond a year and did not pay the tax.
KA government wanted maximum tax revenue to come in from vehicle owners who owned non-KA vehicles but stayed put in the city. If you ask me they have done some good ground work on this. If you catch a person randomly, he could say that he is just a tourist on a temporary visit. And if there is a huge time frame of 11 months, the tax defaulters can just go once in a while to another state, get the toll receipts can claim "tourist" status always and every time. So they kept the time frame of 1 month, which would ensure that genuine tourists, or people who are yet to make up their minds to stay in the city or not are given a chance. And this is also the reason for the RTOs to put their squads in front of large apartment blocks, IT parks etc. Those areas where a "tourist" would just not keep on visiting for more than a month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975
sachinpk, your arguments are based on the argument that KA is doing a great favor to outsiders by providing employment opportunities and they should pay their "dues".
Well "favour" may not be the right word. KA gave opportunities for people to open up big industries here, which also increased the opportunities for jobs in the city. Now they are just ensuring that the population at the place, are just paying their tax dues. And taxes include vehicle taxes as well. I feel every state has the rights to collect the tax dues from the people who reside there.

Quote:
People already pay VAT, excise, registration fees, etc etc directly to the State, they can do without another instance of tax terrorism .
A person who buys a vehicle in KA pays the LTT, so how can it be "tax terrorism" when it comes to another person who is also staying in KA, and using the road infrastructure at KA? Motor Vehicle Taxes have been in existence for at-least 30-40 years now. People pay VAT, Excise, Registration charges etc. because it is very easy to make them pay up. If there are ways to skip that, people would do that also. Registration of land deals is another joke, as people regularly under-value the price of land in order to pay lesser registration fees. So it is never a case of "honest citizens v/s dis-honest government agencies". Both are equally bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand
Sachin, Can you kindly stop generalizing that outside people will not pat tax blah blah blah... May be around your circle it is true, but that do not give you a license to generalize - I have known more than few people who have voluntarily paid KA road tax, so if I take a leaf out of your comments, I can very well generalize that people are not thugs. Let us stick to the topic and stop painting people with yellow.
No problems mate. But then can we go with some other points of reference.
1. Before the amendment every non-KA vehicle owner used to pay the LTT promptly on time. So much so that the KA state received all its tax dues. Is it true? I mean has any one been able to prove (here or the judiciary) that this amendment was not required as tax dues for KA were getting paid any ways.
2. After the amendment came in and RTO squads impounding vehicles a large number of genuine short time visitors (say like tourists) landed in trouble. That is more number of one-time visitors were caught rather than the tax dodgers who were staying put in Bangalore city. The amendment was a failure that long term tax-dodgers were not getting identified and tax dues collected.

Quote:
Exactly - they (KA RTO) just took the easiest route available and as usual.
As I said earlier, why should KA RTO spend millions of rupees on a new system (like check posts at every inter-state border) when there are ways and means to get the tax dues? And the Motor Vehicle Taxation has provisions for appeal, which a person can use if he feels that he has been unjustifiably asked to pay the LTT. As far as I know no tax-defaulter has bothered to go an appeal or make an attempt to fight out the case. People just paid up. So was it that they themselves knew that they don't have evidence to prove that they were one time visitors?
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Old 13th April 2015, 12:01   #1233
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I understand, but we have covered the point earlier. KA RTO's job (regarding a newly entered vehicle) is to check and collect the tax dues. It has no onus (or inclination) to ensure that the previous state has refunded the money to the vehicle owner. The parties are always KA RTO-->Vehicle owner, and non-KA-RTO-->Vehicle owner. The existing rules are a slow and pain staking, but can that be taken as an excuse to evade tax? Again when it comes to the refund process. By mistake I placed an on-line order for the same article twice. Money also was deducted from my credit card twice. Now I have asked for a refund. The on-line traders clearly said it would take 10 days for the money to come back. These on-line traders are not any government agency, but again when it comes to giving a refund every one is a bit slow . And onus is now on me to call them up and make sure that the money comes in.

Sachin, Are you convinced with the fact that the road tax paid for a depreciated vehicle in KA is ridiculously high when compared to the same vehicle being purchased new from another state.
One of my flat owner owns a 2006 santro bearing TN38 registration. He was caught by the RTO officials and was asked to pay Rs 64000 as tax including fine.
He politely said if here were to sell the car, it would not attract a price close to even 80000 rs while the KA RTO is asking for a tax payment of Rs 64000.
The RTO official happened to be a genuine person. He asked the flat owner to meet him the next day in his office where the tax amount was once again looked into. Finally the amount was settled at Rs 30000 of which Rs 4000 went to the official's pocket and the balance Rs 26000 went to the RTO coffers.
Even TN RTO faced a similar situation when people started registering their vehicles in the neighboring Pondicherry. Did they tweak the rule from 11 months to 30 days?? NO
The RTO swung into action, checked the credentials of people if they resided in chennai for more than 11 months and then collected fines. But what is KA RTO doing.?
Also do note that this amount being collected is for the Anna Bhagya scheme as the govt does not have any other funds for running this scheme.
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Old 13th April 2015, 12:06   #1234
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Well "favour" may not be the right word. KA gave opportunities for people to open up big industries here, which also increased the opportunities for jobs in the city. Now they are just ensuring that the population at the place, are just paying their tax dues. And taxes include vehicle taxes as well. I feel every state has the rights to collect the tax dues from the people who reside there.


A person who buys a vehicle in KA pays the LTT, so how can it be "tax terrorism" when it comes to another person who is also staying in KA, and using the road infrastructure at KA? Motor Vehicle Taxes have been in existence for at-least 30-40 years now. People pay VAT, Excise, Registration charges etc. because it is very easy to make them pay up. If there are ways to skip that, people would do that also. Registration of land deals is another joke, as people regularly under-value the price of land in order to pay lesser registration fees. So it is never a case of "honest citizens v/s dis-honest government agencies". Both are equally bad.

*Every* state in this country provides employment opportunities , some of them a lot more than KA does. Gujarat and MH has attracted a large number of industries.

You don't seem to be objecting to the namma metro and JNNURM buses being funded from central govt money ?

Going by your logic of states having the right to impose vehicle tax, if the neighboring states start imposing LTT tax for entering for 1 day , you would also justify that and that wouldn't be tax terrorism, right ?

Last edited by sdp1975 : 13th April 2015 at 12:17.
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Old 13th April 2015, 13:00   #1235
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by suresh_gs
Sachin, Are you convinced with the fact that the road tax paid for a depreciated vehicle in KA is ridiculously high when compared to the same vehicle being purchased new from another state.
But how does it negate the duty to pay the tax? Fine if there is a flaw in the system, we all should fight to get it fixed it. But we cannot dodge the tax, am I right? Let us see the excuses which has been given in this very thread itself. From my memory:-
1. India allows "freedom of movement", so I should not be taxed at all (when the laws don't consider it that way).
2. I have paid the LTT in another state, so I don't have to pay LTT again (when Motor Veh. Tax is due at each state).
3. My state's RTO is not bothered about giving me a tax refund. So I would not pay up the tax in KA as well. Let the RTOs sort it out (when there is no reason for them to do that).
4. It is this one month rule which is the problem, I would have happily paid it if it was 3 months, 6 months or 12 months (when it is pretty much known that the majority did NOT do this before the amendment came in place)
5. I pay VAT, Registration, Service Tax so will not pay LTT (when all these taxes are separate, and when LTT also was there as a tax for past 30-40 years)

So on and so forth.

Quote:
One of my flat owner owns a 2006 santro bearing TN38 registration. He was caught by the RTO officials and was asked to pay Rs 64000 as tax including fine.He politely said if here were to sell the car, it would not attract a price close to even 80000 rs while the KA RTO is asking for a tax payment of Rs 64000.
Not to deviate from the topic. But please note the flat owner did not bother to pay the road tax, until the RTO came to his door step. Which was a point I raised earlier as well. That is even when the time frame was 11 months (or be it 18 months or two years), chances are that people would not pay the tax. Each of us would have some explanation or other. Keep that aside, as I guess we all know that.

Quote:
The RTO swung into action, checked the credentials of people if they resided in chennai for more than 11 months and then collected fines. But what is KA RTO doing.?
Will you be able to help me, in how the RTO went and identified these people? I am not being sarcastic here. But how did they prove that the accused was in TN for 11 months, consistently. And that he for all practical purposes reside in TN state boundaries. With that we may be able to know if a better approach can be there.

Quote:
Also do note that this amount being collected is for the Anna Bhagya scheme as the govt does not have any other funds for running this scheme.
Once the tax is collected, the government will have the rights to decide how the money gets distributed, am I right? I don't know if there is a rule which exists that money collected as tax from a source, has to be put back to the betterment of that source ONLY. Like for example money collected through Liquor taxes have to be ploughed back to schemes related to Liquor business only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975
*Every* state in this country provides employment opportunities , some of them a lot more than KA does. Gujarat and MH has attracted a large number of industries.
I don't think KA is stopping any group of people to move to these places, including KA state people. GJ and MH may not have felt the need to increase their tax coffers, where as KA felt the need. And they have leveraged a few provisions which allow them to amend their taxation laws. The states have lots of liberty when it comes to their finance management.

Quote:
You don't seem to be objecting to the namma metro and JNNURM buses being funded from central govt money ?
When central government financed Namma Metro and JNNURM buses, did they explicitly state that KA government should allow vehicles from all across India to roam around the state without paying LTT? Nobody is doing a charity business here sir . It is the Constitution of India which has given the privileges for states and the union government.

Quote:
Going by your logic of states having the right to impose vehicle tax, if the neighboring states start imposing LTT tax for entering for 1 day , you would also justify that and that wouldn't be tax terrorism, right ?
If it is within the rule books, well yes. We as a country have a clear cut procedure to bring in a law. And that also includes multiple review process, mainly from the judiciary as well. So if a state can pass a law imposing LTT for entering for a day (or for an hour as well), and getting the Governor's ascent, plus the judiciary not chucking out the law, then it is perfectly legal. What would happen on the ground (I mean vehicles avoiding the state etc.), is upto to the individuals, and the state governments. One month has been given by KA govt, which I am sure would help any one make up his mind. Coming in with a vehicle, and people know the purpose(new job, study, temp. transfer etc.), when they start scouting for a home to stay etc. - any would know how long they would be in KA.

Again, may be I am going like a broken record and this is purely my opinion. If any one can prove with numbers/data that when the amendment was not made a large majority of people (non-KA vehicle owners) were prompt in paying the LTT, I can easily agree that this amendment was un-necessary and people are getting harassed. But that does not seem to be the case here. The police in many states have a nasty habit of barging into people's home to execute "Long Pending Warrants". They do this after ensuring the accused it at home, and arrive at an odd time (between 2:00Hrs to 4:00Hrs generally). People may call this draconian. But they don't think about how the warrant became a "long pending" one, and why the accused has to be pulled out of his bed and arrested. That was because he was dodging the law until then.

Last edited by sachinpk : 13th April 2015 at 13:02.
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Old 13th April 2015, 13:25   #1236
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I dont think we would be this inflamed, if the collected money is used for road development. The current situation of roads and traffic doesnt make the situation look any better.

Even if it is within the state's jurisdiction to decide how the funds are handled, diverting a fund without meeting the intended cause.. ?!

PS: Our own thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ation-534.html (Rants on Bangalore's traffic situation) , for info!

Last edited by babu.sundaram : 13th April 2015 at 13:27. Reason: Added ref URL
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Old 13th April 2015, 15:01   #1237
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

The so called KA RTO praisers are simply hiding the fact that very recently the High Court in Telengana \ Andhra had stopped this NONSENSE by an order and had the same views that we are being discussing here. The court clearly mentioned this double taxing is not at all allowed and the state doesnt have the right to implement this nonsense. So its applicable all over India referring to this case, I think KA is still in India.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/15040...tax-outstation

“We are of the view that the order was passed without having any force of law. Learned Government Pleader says that the provision must have been there in some other laws, which he is unable to tell us at the moment, but we think when such legal provision has not been reflected in the impugned order itself. On that ground, we set aside the impugned order,” read the order of the HC.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 13th April 2015 at 15:15.
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Old 13th April 2015, 16:16   #1238
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
After being in Bangalore for nearly 15 years and seeing the number of non-KA vehicles plying in Bangalore for years together AND seeing the attitude of those vehicle owners, what I came to realise is that - Even if the time period is 1 year, 18 months or 2 years, FAT chance that these people would pay any road tax.

To the folks who say 30 days is unjust, can they also help me with the figures/numbers on LTT collected by KA government (from non-KA vehicle owners) when the time period was 11 months, which many people feel as a "justified" time frame?
Just by "seeing" so many out of state vehicle registration numbers doesn't give you the insight that the vehicle owners haven't paid LTT in KA. Can you prove that they haven't? Please provide the figures/numbers to support your view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Nor have I seen wilful victimisation in the name of such a rule that happens all the time in KA.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinayak View Post
It is unfair to assume that people who have moved (or are visiting) to Bangalore are not paying state taxes. Road Tax is a life time tax and all of us have paid it.
Agree, and adding my number to the vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sumannandy View Post
We live in India, not in KA or WB or any other place.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
That is incorrect. People will try to avoid any system that demands that you pay up lifetime tax twice in two different states. Why do they try to avoid it? Because the governments that use police force to collect tax the second time does not move a finger to help them get a refund for the first.
Well said. People seem to confuse taxes as the government's right rather than our contribution to the development of infrastructure. As we have seen, the latter doesn't always happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Will you be able to provide some good information to prove that non-KA vehicle owners HAPPILY paid the LTT, when the old rule was in place? That is they were all great honest individuals who promptly paid LTT as soon as the vehicle was put to use for more than 11 months in KA? From what information I have (you can prove me wrong), non-KA vehicle owners just ignored this and enjoyed driving around the whole of the state. They started crying out loud when the RTO came knocking home.

Let the states try that. KA government may be great arm-twisters, but they are not fools.
Please present the source of your information along with the numbers on which you have based your "analysis" of the behaviour of the owners of non-KA registered vehicles. I'm genuinely interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Please, don't be generic with your assumptions. I know many non-KA owners who have paid LTT even before this rule change, including me.
Ditto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Any state can only levy any tax based on existing legal frameworks. As far as I could figure out on the LTT case the government has played the game by the book. So taxing any body just for being an "out sider" would not be possible. One more thing which needs to get highlighted here is the skewed development. IT which was the job provider for the last 20 odd years essentially is focussed on the Southern states (TS,AP,TN,KA). Where as other state governments could also think about upgrading their state infrastructure.
The state has decided to change the rules immediately before playing the game. It was a year, they changed it to a month and immediately began their "arm twisting".

Please show me the brilliant infrastructure development funded by all the other direct and indirect taxes that we pay that I am privileged to use. Would also like to see how the other states fare poorly in comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
Sachin, Can you kindly stop generalizing that outside people will not pat tax blah blah blah... May be around your circle it is true, but that do not give you a license to generalize - I have known more than few people who have voluntarily paid KA road tax, so if I take a leaf out of your comments, I can very well generalize that people are not thugs. Let us stick to the topic and stop painting people with yellow.
Hear hear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Well "favour" may not be the right word. KA gave opportunities for people to open up big industries here, which also increased the opportunities for jobs in the city. Now they are just ensuring that the population at the place, are just paying their tax dues. And taxes include vehicle taxes as well. I feel every state has the rights to collect the tax dues from the people who reside there.

No problems mate. But then can we go with some other points of reference.

1. Before the amendment every non-KA vehicle owner used to pay the LTT promptly on time. So much so that the KA state received all its tax dues. Is it true? I mean has any one been able to prove (here or the judiciary) that this amendment was not required as tax dues for KA were getting paid any ways.

As I said earlier, why should KA RTO spend millions of rupees on a new system (like check posts at every inter-state border) when there are ways and means to get the tax dues? And the Motor Vehicle Taxation has provisions for appeal, which a person can use if he feels that he has been unjustifiably asked to pay the LTT. As far as I know no tax-defaulter has bothered to go an appeal or make an attempt to fight out the case. People just paid up. So was it that they themselves knew that they don't have evidence to prove that they were one time visitors?
Favour isn't the right word, but does point to an attitude.

Regarding point 1, please prove that the law was required because there were a large number of vehicles that hadn't paid LTT. The numbers reported in the media (by the RTO) were followed by numerous reports of vehicles just passing through, or those that were here for less than a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
But how does it negate the duty to pay the tax?

Again, may be I am going like a broken record and this is purely my opinion.
How does it invite harassment? And yes, actually.

You demand proof that people have paid LTT, yet have offered very little evidence of evasion yourself. Your lengthy arguments are based solely on the premise that if there wasn't large scale evasion, there wouldn't be a requirement for a change in the law or an RTO drive. You then say that the RTO has failed to successfully catch the evaders, and that they managed only to harass tourists.

These RTO drives were not advertised in advance, therefore based on your own arguments then could it not be because the people living here have already paid KA LTT? That the cops are only managing to catch tourists (per your own argument) surely points to this.

Please prove me wrong by providing some of your own numbers as you repeatedly have requested.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk
I don't think KA is stopping any group of people to move to these places, including KA state people. GJ and MH may not have felt the need to increase their tax coffers, where as KA felt the need.
That's your argument? Move out rather than make the government better? Need better infrastructure and fairer laws, then find a different state? Sorry, but that's not in the spirit of democracy, neither is it a progressive attitude.

As has been stated by someone else, if the infrastructure were up to the mark, people wouldn't mind paying. It is the same in other states, possibly for other areas of infrastructure, but I sincerely doubt anyone could win the argument that KA roads are the best because of the fact that the state's LTT is the highest, and their "arm-twisting" is the best.
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Old 13th April 2015, 16:27   #1239
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Is it not a ploy by KA Govt. to cash in as much as they can before the uniform road tax of 6% is applied throughout the country? If I am correct, KA road tax is 15% plus, which is definitely much higher than the country average. Can we say the same about the road infrastructure in KA to be as much better? I am not a KA resident so my question is genuine rather than being sarcastic.
As a matter of fact, JH road taxes are among the lowest in the country (~4%) but still we have good road infrastructure, well, mostly.

Last edited by saket77 : 13th April 2015 at 16:32.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:05   #1240
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Wow !! Looks like I have ruffled lot of feathers today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by babu.sundaram
Even if it is within the state's jurisdiction to decide how the funds are handled, diverting a fund without meeting the intended cause.. ?!
It is the state's prerogative to allocate funds, in the order and percentage which the state government seems fit. If diverting funds are illegal, what stops the non-KA owners from approaching the courts? And not only that, KA government has been collecting LTT for quite some time now. Why all the sudden huge whine about diverting funds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ::CMS::
The court clearly mentioned this double taxing is not at all allowed and the state doesnt have the right to implement this nonsense. So its applicable all over India referring to this case, I think KA is still in India.
Even as a lay man, I have given some information on how the Motor Vehicle Taxation laws work at the moment. I don't know in what context or the details about the case in AP. But please understand that the Hon.HC of Karnataka has vacated the stay order. It has NOT yet found the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Amendment to be illegal. The law is still valid in Karnataka. I am not sure if TS/AP government have amended their own state specific vehicle taxation laws, or just issued an executive order asking RTOs to collect the LTT from non-AP, non-TS vehicles. Karnataka has amended the Act, and the State Governor has approved it. Hon.HC having jurisdiction all over Karnataka have not found the rule to be illegal, or unconstitutional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velu.M
Can you prove that they haven't? Please provide the figures/numbers to support your view.
Quote:
Please present the source of your information along with the numbers on which you have based your "analysis" of the behaviour of the owners of non-KA registered vehicles. I'm genuinely interested.
Quote:
Regarding point 1, please prove that the law was required because there were a large number of vehicles that hadn't paid LTT.
I would not be able to give that information because I am not working for the RTO. Thinking logically, this is what I could make out. Karnataka government through its own verification identifies that revenue through LTT from non-KA vehicles does not match the actual number of non-KA vehicles criss-crossing the state. I am yet to find out a reason for personal enimity between KA Govt. and non-KA vehicle owners. They ask the authorised agency, the RTO get going and collect the tax dues from non-KA vehicles found to be happily using KA roads. To give more "teeth" to the RTO, tax collection act is amended which makes gathering evidence even more simpler. Again I could not see any personal enimity between RTO officials and non-KA vehicle owners. So my reasoning was that if the KA government did not find any much difference between tax collected as LTT from non-KA vehicles and the actual non-KA vehicles on the roads, they would not have bothered about all this.

And again the numbers which I give you is immaterial, if you (God forbid) are standing it front of an RTO officials in a non-KA registered vehicle. No point in asking for numbers at that time. Your choices are very limited. Pay up the tax, or decide to goto the appellate authority, or once again approach the judicial courts. There again, numbers (or the rationale behind RTO stopping the vehicle) would not be checked. It would be just a check on the provisions of the law. So my friend, you can ignore me as a lunatic, because I could not give you the numbers you asked for. But the law still stands, and it is that which is going to be used (and not my numbers). The amendment was required in order to have an effective law, which helps the RTO to easily prove that a person was staying in Karnataka for a reasonable amount of time (1 day is unreasonable, 12 months it is hard to prove).

Quote:
People seem to confuse taxes as the government's right rather than our contribution to the development of infrastructure. As we have seen, the latter doesn't always happen.
Tax payment is a duty of the citizen. There are no ifs and buts. And if a citizen disobeys from doing that duty, government can use all available means (including seizure of assets, imprisonment etc) to get the tax dues out. India is still a developing country, there are still lots more development (and progress) to be made. But will you refuse from paying the Income tax? Try evading the income tax stating that as an individual you don't think the money you put in as tax is getting used properly.

Quote:
The state has decided to change the rules immediately before playing the game. It was a year, they changed it to a month and immediately began their "arm twisting".
The rule had to be modified to make this a legal operation. With a time period of 12 months it is tough to prove that a person has been in Karnataka on a continuous basis. So they amended the rule, so that RTO can use the more powerful law to act against non-KA vehicles. The state used the powers vested on it to make the amendment and get it duly approved by the state governor.

Quote:
Please show me the brilliant infrastructure development funded by all the other direct and indirect taxes that we pay that I am privileged to use. Would also like to see how the other states fare poorly in comparison.
The government (nor me) need not show you or prove any thing to you (or other individuals) to levy a tax. Again, India's infrastructure needs lots of improvement. But will that stop you from paying your income tax? And if you evade that kind of taxes for long, do you think Income Tax's intelligence wing will just allow you to get away with any excuse? No wonder with such brilliant strategists the Income Tax folks started pushing for Tax Deducted at Source (TDS).

Quote:
You then say that the RTO has failed to successfully catch the evaders, and that they managed only to harass tourists.
If you are talking about the comment I made in this post (Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore), then please re-read and understand the entire context. I wanted to know, after the amendment how many genuine tourists landed in trouble, compared to the tax dodgers whose vehicle got impounded.

Quote:
As has been stated by someone else, if the infrastructure were up to the mark, people wouldn't mind paying.
How very sweet !! Tax is not a charity which any citizen is giving to the government. These kind of arguments, may be okay in Internet forums. But I suggest they also try this with the RTO, or the Traffic Police when they come asking for the "tax paid receipt". Please share the results here.

Quote:
That's your argument? Move out rather than make the government better? Need better infrastructure and fairer laws, then find a different state? Sorry, but that's not in the spirit of democracy, neither is it a progressive attitude.
If you want better infrastructure, defaulting on taxes is not the way to put across your point. No sensible government would even tolerate that excuse. If you want fairer laws, make the government of the day listen to you or else seek help from the judiciary. Again dodging tax will not be tolerated by both these authorities. So if a person (or group of persons) have no way to influence the government, nor prove the judiciary that a law is malafide then they really don't have much choices left. Live with that law, or move to a place where such a law does not exist.

So at the end of it, lots of ruffled feathers. Don't think I learnt any thing new today on legal aspects of this issue. What ever we write here, crib about, or sermonize about the Taxation Amendment still holds valid. What the RTO plans to do, we need to wait and watch.

Last edited by sachinpk : 13th April 2015 at 17:17.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:22   #1241
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Why don't they put road tax on fuel. Irrespective of which state you are from you will end up paying states share.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:37   #1242
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Rules are meant for people; people are not meant for rules. I find the argument very very strange that just because it was hard for the Govt. to prove that a particular vehicle has been in KA for more than 12 months, so they modified the existing law (mind you-which exists throughout the country) - to one month! It is like modifying the punishment for petty crimes to hanging just because you want a person to kill anyway! Any why don't you think that one day the Govt. will not say that proving a one month stay is difficult, so we would collect LTT from all non-KA cars we come across. And this has actually happened. The RTO officials have also verbally & physically abused and harassed people. Is there an appropriate amendment by KA Govt. which gives this liberty to them as well? And not accepting toll receipts?

And any response to my question posted above (post #1238)?

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Originally Posted by ViMo View Post
Why don't they put road tax on fuel. Irrespective of which state you are from you will end up paying states share.
I think there is already a part component in fuel prices which goes towards improving road infrastructure. I am not sure of the usage though.

Regards,
Saket

Last edited by saket77 : 13th April 2015 at 17:38.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:48   #1243
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Hi Guys,

I will be moving to Bangalore from chennai in couple of month's time. Since my period of stay would anyway be more than a year, I will be getting my car registered over there.

Now my doubt is on the tax calculation.

I own a Verna diesel and the ex-showroom price which I bought the vehicle was 9.5 lacs.

On what price of the vehicle will the tax be calculated on? The ex-showroom price for which I bought the car from Chennai or the price prevailing in Bangalore?

Mods: Please move the post to appropriate thread if needed.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:53   #1244
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by karts View Post
Hi Guys,

I will be moving to Bangalore from chennai in couple of month's time. Since my period of stay would anyway be more than a year, I will be getting my car registered over there.

Now my doubt is on the tax calculation.

I own a Verna diesel and the ex-showroom price which I bought the vehicle was 9.5 lacs.

On what price of the vehicle will the tax be calculated on? The ex-showroom price for which I bought the car from Chennai or the price prevailing in Bangalore?

Mods: Please move the post to appropriate thread if needed.
This will help u

Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore-tax.png

In ur case ex showroom price is more than 5 lakhs but less than 10 lakhs. So 14% road tax will be applicable. BTW how old is ur vehicle. Accordingly multiply the product of 14% * 9.5 lakhs * depreciation %. To this add 11% cess.

Last edited by suresh_gs : 13th April 2015 at 17:56.
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Old 13th April 2015, 17:55   #1245
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by karts View Post
On what price of the vehicle will the tax be calculated on? The ex-showroom price for which I bought the car from Chennai or the price prevailing in Bangalore?

Mods: Please move the post to appropriate thread if needed.
Its based on the Ex-showroom price in your invoice, not the current price in bangalore. If you don't have the invoice, then mostly they will consider the bangalore price.
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