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Old 13th April 2015, 18:00   #1246
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I would not be able to give that information because I am not working for the RTO.
Why does that not prevent you from asking others to prove their assertions, then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
So my reasoning was that if the KA government did not find any much difference between tax collected as LTT from non-KA vehicles and the actual non-KA vehicles on the roads, they would not have bothered about all this.
Are you aware of a database of records where the KA government stores the details of the non-KA vehicles that are present in and cross the state? I would like to know how they arrived at the calculated difference that forms the basis of your reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
And again the numbers which I give you is immaterial, if you (God forbid) are standing it front of an RTO officials in a non-KA registered vehicle. No point in asking for numbers at that time. Your choices are very limited. Pay up the tax, or decide to goto the appellate authority, or once again approach the judicial courts. There again, numbers (or the rationale behind RTO stopping the vehicle) would not be checked. It would be just a check on the provisions of the law. So my friend, you can ignore me as a lunatic, because I could not give you the numbers you asked for. But the law still stands, and it is that which is going to be used (and not my numbers). The amendment was required in order to have an effective law, which helps the RTO to easily prove that a person was staying in Karnataka for a reasonable amount of time (1 day is unreasonable, 12 months it is hard to prove).
I'm still trying to understand the intent of this rather lengthy section of your post. Is this your amusement at the predicament and harassment of a hapless tourist, or was this just to gloss over your lack of facts to prove your case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Tax payment is a duty of the citizen. There are no ifs and buts. And if a citizen disobeys from doing that duty, government can use all available means (including seizure of assets, imprisonment etc) to get the tax dues out. India is still a developing country, there are still lots more development (and progress) to be made. But will you refuse from paying the Income tax? Try evading the income tax stating that as an individual you don't think the money you put in as tax is getting used properly.
We are not talking about income tax, which is uniform throughout the country. We are discussing an alteration to a law that is being challenged in court. The tax is called "Road Tax" for a reason, and the amendment can still be challenged in a higher court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The rule had to be modified to make this a legal operation. With a time period of 12 months it is tough to prove that a person has been in Karnataka on a continuous basis. So they amended the rule, so that RTO can use the more powerful law to act against non-KA vehicles. The state used the powers vested on it to make the amendment and get it duly approved by the state governor.
Let us consider your income tax example for a moment, and switch it to a crime such as murder. Is your argument then that if it is difficult to prove that a person committed a murder we should change the law to make it easier to convict more people, even if after some harassment and run-around of the courts it was proven that a lot of them didn't commit murder? Sorry, I know this is ridiculous, but I was similarly foxed by the "Income Tax" statement.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The government (nor me) need not show you or prove any thing to you (or other individuals) to levy a tax. Again, India's infrastructure needs lots of improvement. But will that stop you from paying your income tax? And if you evade that kind of taxes for long, do you think Income Tax's intelligence wing will just allow you to get away with any excuse? No wonder with such brilliant strategists the Income Tax folks started pushing for Tax Deducted at Source (TDS).
TDS was introduced to simplify the payment of taxes, and it is a boon. I'm not going to digress from the point of this discussion further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
If you are talking about the comment I made in this post (Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore), then please re-read and understand the entire context. I wanted to know, after the amendment how many genuine tourists landed in trouble, compared to the tax dodgers whose vehicle got impounded.
My apologies for misquoting you.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
How very sweet !! Tax is not a charity which any citizen is giving to the government. These kind of arguments, may be okay in Internet forums. But I suggest they also try this with the RTO, or the Traffic Police when they come asking for the "tax paid receipt". Please share the results here.
Again, unable to fathom the intent of this section. I never said Tax is charity. Tax is required by the government to provide civic amenities, infrastructure, and development.

And what's with asking me to try this and that with the RTO? Why should I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
If you want fairer laws, make the government of the day listen to you or else seek help from the judiciary. So if a person (or group of persons) have no way to influence the government, nor prove the judiciary that a law is malafide then they really don't have much choices left.
I believe that help from the judiciary is being sought. Things do not end at the HC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Live with that law, or move to a place where such a law does not exist.
You also seem to have misinterpreted the entire essence of this thread. The intent is not to dodge tax, but to point out how a modified law affects people. They could be any people, so let's not become biased, indignant, and ask people to move out. We are just people trying to discuss a change that is popularly considered unjust or unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
So at the end of it, lots of ruffled feathers. Don't think I learnt any thing new today on legal aspects of this issue. What ever we write here, crib about, or sermonize about the Taxation Amendment still holds valid. What the RTO plans to do, we need to wait and watch.
I thought it was an interesting dialogue. Let's stick to the point and it may continue to be interesting.

Last edited by VeluM : 13th April 2015 at 18:03. Reason: Cleaning up.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:06   #1247
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Way back in 1997 I voluntarily paid LTT on my two wheeler when I bought it to Bangalore from Kerala. It is another matter that I left Bangalore for good after 18 months. Did I get a refund of tax? No.

Just to reiterate that people do pay tax if they have long term plans (2 years or more for me). Demanding LTT after 30 days is unjustified harassment.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:09   #1248
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by saket77
Is it not a ploy by KA Govt. to cash in as much as they can before the uniform road tax of 6% is applied throughout the country? If I am correct, KA road tax is 15% plus, which is definitely much higher than the country average.
Can you let me know more about this 6% uniform road tax? Is it some thing new, or it is also part of the proposed Road Transport Safety Bill? RTSB, I have a copy of the draft, did not remember reading any thing on tax set as 6% across India. Karnataka has higher road taxes, and if I get it right even the ex-show room prices are higher here.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, JH road taxes are among the lowest in the country (~4%) but still we have good road infrastructure, well, mostly.
Not to demean JH as a state, but then why don't people migrate to JH in large numbers? JH could also work on a scheme which provides large scale migration to those parts. The catch here is that employment opportunities are more in KA, at one time thanks to IT etc. disposable income was also high in cities like Bengaluru. KA government clearly identified the new "cash cow", and started milking it.

Quote:
I find the argument very very strange that just because it was hard for the Govt. to prove that a particular vehicle has been in KA for more than 12 months, so they modified the existing law (mind you-which exists throughout the country) - to one month!
Don't confuse MV Act (pan-India) and the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act (only in Karnataka). The state has the rights to determine its vehicle taxes, and they way it can be collected. At the moment there is no central act or guidelines which the states have to follow. Karnataka has used this privilege to alter its laws to ensure that maximum LTT comes into its kitty. One way for non-KA vehicle owners was to prove that they were here for only a month, but from what I could understand many could not prove that at all. Some other groups claiming harassments were also not very visible (and proven) for any one to strike down the law.

Quote:
Any why don't you think that one day the Govt. will not say that proving a one month stay is difficult, so we would collect LTT from all non-KA cars we come across
I am sure that would lead to a lot of court cases, and if KA Govt. tries that let them also find a way to prove their charges. At the moment the time frame is one month, so perhaps we should expect it to remain the same way for quite some time.

Quote:
The RTO officials have also verbally & physically abused and harassed people. Is there an appropriate amendment by KA Govt. which gives this liberty to them as well? And not accepting toll receipts?
Again I feel you are seeing this from an emotional angle (don't take it bad). No government official is authorised to use any force/threats to get a person to follow his instructions. But there again are exemptions. Agencies like police are also authorised to use necessary force to ensure compliance from the person who they are dealing with. RTOs have the power to seize the vehicle which has not paid the LTT. So he also has the rights to use force in case the driver refuses.

In case of physical abuse, harassments etc. there are other avenues to get it addressed. We routinely accuse police of thrashing people inside the lock up. But because that happen, can we also have a situation that we disband the entire police force, or redraft the laws that all their rights to use force are removed? Same is the case here. RTOs may have harassed people, would perhaps even continue to do so. But that is not the excuse for not paying the tax. A rude traffic police officer stops use for driving without a DL. Will you argue that since Traffic Police Officer is rude, your "right" to drive without a DL has to be accommodated? Tell me one country in this world which has such a legal system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViMo
Why don't they put road tax on fuel. Irrespective of which state you are from you will end up paying states share.
Every state does that. KL has a sizeable amount of fuel tax. Karnataka is also in the same way, and in Bengaluru they have also added a cess of Rs.1 per litre of fuel. TN seems to have lower fuel prices, pretty much every time. Need to know how they manage to do that .

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM
Why does that not prevent you from asking others to prove their assertions, then?
Where have I asked for any proof for any assertion? I have shared my thoughts, and in a few cases related to law I have also quoted from web sites and also given my interpretations. And I have asked if my understanding is correct, or others have better points to bring about. If people say they would have paid LTT when there was 12 months to do so, with what I have seen around I don't think it would fly. Others if they have realised that it is not the case, correct me. What is the big deal? Or else there is a straight forward and easy way. Let all of us, just continue to have our own assumptions but finally it is the law which would be considered.

Quote:
Are you aware of a database of records where the KA government stores the details of the non-KA vehicles that are present in and cross the state?
No, I am not aware. But if you have more information on the same, I would like to know how it is getting updated. And on what basis. Have been driving through Attibele and Gundlupet check posts for quite some time. But I have not seen private vehicles stopping and drivers going and updating some data. The truckers etc. seems to make an entry at the RTO check posts.

Quote:
Is this your amusement at the predicament and harassment of a hapless tourist, or was this just to gloss over your lack of facts to prove your case?
I am not amused at all. Are you trying to say that so far only tourists have been forced to pay the LTT? I have personally seen drives happening in major IT parks in Bangalore. It was folks who worked at the same place for years together who got caught.

Quote:
We are discussing an alteration to a law that is being challenged in court. The tax is called "Road Tax" for a reason, and the amendment can still be challenged in a higher court.
Quote:
I believe that help from the judiciary is being sought. Things do not end at the HC.
I know. But at the point a stay which was earlier in place has been vacated. As far as I know, an appeal is yet to be filed. So the amended road tax act, still stands? I for sure have been actively monitoring the legal aspect of this (out of my academic interests). Both my vehicles are KA registered, and I had paid LTT for a KL vehicle which I used long time back.

Quote:
Is your argument then that if it is difficult to prove that a person committed a murder we should change the law to make it easier to convict more people, even if after some harassment and run-around of the courts it was proven that a lot of them didn't commit murder?
There were acts like POTA and TADA which gave police more easier means to prosecute criminals for heinous crimes. There are various versions of Anti-Terrorism and Anti-Goonda acts which was drafted to give the police more "teeth", than which was given by most of the old legal codes (like IPC and Cr.PC). These were all made to enable better conviction, and also to ensure people followed the law of the land in a better fashion. So amendments, new laws etc. can be brought in if it helps the state machinery to work effectively.

Quote:
Tax is required by the government to provide civic amenities, infrastructure, and development.
Then pay it up based on the tax collection laws. Simple. But I don't think any one will buy the argument - "poor infrastructue (or not to my liking), so I would not pay tax".

Quote:
The intent is not to dodge tax, but to point out how a modified law affects people. We are just people trying to discuss a change that is popularly considered unjust or unfair.
There lies the whole catch. You say a modified law is affecting people, because they are forced to pay LTT. But the older provision (of 12 months) was affecting the state, as there was no much enthusiasm to pay the road tax. Again, if you ask numbers on how many people who paid LTT bang after 12 months I don't have an answer. But if a majority paid up, why do you think KA government needed to amend a law, make it more strict and then go for a drive? I would have considered this amendment as unjust or unfair if I get a feeling that honest tax-payers all paid their tax dues on time YET, the government is harassing them. I am sorry, I don't get that feeling at all. So "let us agree to disagree".

Last edited by sachinpk : 13th April 2015 at 18:29.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:21   #1249
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by suresh_gs View Post
This will help u

Attachment 1360243

In ur case ex showroom price is more than 5 lakhs but less than 10 lakhs. So 14% road tax will be applicable. BTW how old is ur vehicle. Accordingly multiply the product of 14% * 9.5 lakhs * depreciation %. To this add 11% cess.
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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Its based on the Ex-showroom price in your invoice, not the current price in bangalore. If you don't have the invoice, then mostly they will consider the bangalore price.
Thank you guys, My car is 9 months old, Roughly I will have to pay around 1.5 lakhs as tax

11% Cess would be on the tax value which comes out?

Last edited by karts : 13th April 2015 at 18:26.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:23   #1250
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

@sachinpk: you talked about motor vehicles taxation appeal. This is done after you pay the tax, so it's just like trying to get a refund from another RTO. Impossible.
And talking of freedom to move all over India, and considering the good of taxes, we could make it mandatory to pay taxes of all states and union territories at the time of buying the car itself. Thus there would be no room for evasion. Agreed that the cheapest nano would become unaffordable, but atleast your taxes would be paid and you'd have freedom.
@ViMo: India is a country where multiple taxation is the norm. We pay tax on tax. We do pay a huge amount as tax on fuel, about 240% if some sources are to be believed.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:24   #1251
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

The only way out is for the Central Government to put an end to this nonsense by applying a flat road tax all over India.

All this talk about people being 'tax evaders' is nonsense - everyone has paid tax while buying their vehicles. Therefore technically NOBODY is an evader, as some people here are seeking to portray.

If a state decides arbitrarily to charge this tax once again and then at a higher rate, IMHO that state needs to be penalised first - not the common man.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:38   #1252
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530
This is done after you pay the tax, so it's just like trying to get a refund from another RTO. Impossible.
Has any tried this route? Only they can confirm what actually happened.

Quote:
And talking of freedom to move all over India, and considering the good of taxes, we could make it mandatory to pay taxes of all states and union territories at the time of buying the car itself. Thus there would be no room for evasion. Agreed that the cheapest nano would become unaffordable, but atleast your taxes would be paid and you'd have freedom.
I think the old concept of "National Permit" trucks was pretty much this . Correct me if I am wrong here. Freedom of movement, does not mean "freedom of movement in my own vehicle, in any place where I chose to drive on". As per the current frame work, motor vehicle taxes are levied by the respective states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
The only way out is for the Central Government to put an end to this nonsense by applying a flat road tax all over India.
Yes. There should be enough push on the current GoI to bring the new Road Transport Safety Bill. And it also has to pass the Rajya Sabha. So if political considerations get in here, this act also most likely would not see the light of the day. Also understand that no state wants to let go this source of revenue.

Quote:
All this talk about people being 'tax evaders' is nonsense - everyone has paid tax while buying their vehicles. Therefore technically NOBODY is an evader, as some people here are seeking to portray.
The person who is using a non-KA registered vehicle in KA state area for more than one month is actually EVADING the tax dues for Karnataka. Karnataka cannot get this tax from some other source. It has to be collected from the owner of the vehicle. And if he has not paid it, he is technically evading the tax.

Last edited by sachinpk : 13th April 2015 at 18:39.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:38   #1253
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

@VeluM- please back down. SachinPK is just stating a fact: that it is your duty as a citizen to pay any tax that the govt sees fit to levy and that evading it is a violation of the law. I don't think too many people in this thread have a problem understanding this concept- it's just the unfairness of it that makes it galling.

E.g. using the tables kindly provided by @suresh_gs above, I see that if I were to move to Karnataka today (not an unlikely scenario for an IT mazdoor!) the LTT on my 4 year old Vento AT that had an invoiced ex-showroom price of 9.21L would be:

75% x 14% x 9,21,000 = 96,705
-->Including 11% cess, total LTT = 1,07,342/-

What alternative do I have? If I were to sell the car in MH I may get 5L at best. Buying a similar car in KA would cost me a bomb, even used.

To put things in perspective, the LTT I paid in MH at the time of registering my car was about 55K. So I am actually paying nearly DOUBLE that after nearly 5 years just to re-register it. Not to mention that MH RTOs are never going to refund me the LTT I have already paid here.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:50   #1254
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Unfair and unjust taxes have been the cause of civil anarchy in past - toppling kings and governments .

KA used to charge an entry tax on vehicles - eg if you buy a car in MH and then register it in KA, pay entry tax first , and then the RTO tax. That was scrapped by the Karnataka HC based on constitutional provisions.

I'm very confident that this amendment will be scrapped by the courts - based again on constitutional and legal provisions. And the KA govt knows this better than anyone else, LOL. It's just a matter of time.

Btw, I've claimed road tax refund from KA after I moved my car to WB. Possible, but needs a lot of patience. They paid me less than what I was entitled to , but then I claimed the shortfall from them again.

Here's a brief snippet from the verdict on the abolishment of entry tax. Very beautifully stated by the courts :

“Short circuit measures of imposition of tax will not work in the longer run. They are against the principles enunciated in Article 301 of free movement of goods and Article 304(a), which is against levying of any discriminating tax. A state cannot exercise legislative power contrary to constitutional scheme and take away the benefit accrued to common man,’’ Justice N Kumar of the Karnataka high court observed on Friday.

While quashing the entry tax on vehicles purchased from outside the state, Justice Kumar said: “If a state’s economy could be prosperous because of tax holidays and lower tax rates, it shows the maturity of the political leadership and vibrant tax planning and marshalling of resources of that state.

“It is worthy of emulation by neighbouring states by way of free flow of goods and commerce so that people of both states are benefited. Such benefits extend beyond the state boundaries.

“If such a policy results in depletion in revenue to adjoining states, they must wake up to the hard realities of life and reduce the tax burden and extend the same benefits to people of the state as the economy, revenue and state also should improve and arrest the trend of its people going to neighbouring states to purchase motor vehicles.’’

Last edited by sdp1975 : 13th April 2015 at 19:20.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:55   #1255
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by karts View Post
Thank you guys, My car is 9 months old, Roughly I will have to pay around 1.5 lakhs as tax

11% Cess would be on the tax value which comes out?
Yes, From the product of Invoice price * Road tax % (Based on ex showroom price) * % depreciation based on age of vehicle, you have to add 11% cess.
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Old 14th April 2015, 09:44   #1256
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Gentlemen, any updates/news on what the petitioner (Waseem) now plans to do? Earlier reports given here says that petitioners plan to file a review petition with Hon.HC once again. Has this been done, and the court given a date for hearing the case? I was part of the Facebook Group of "non-KA vehicle owners against this new rule", but off late I found out that I have been chucked out of there .

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster
What alternative do I have? If I were to sell the car in MH I may get 5L at best. Buying a similar car in KA would cost me a bomb, even used.
A long term solution is to have a revenue sharing mechanism between states, but the central government collecting the road tax. That is the simple and straight forward solution. But in Indian political scenario the chances are very remote. Because most of the states are not cash-rich, and these kind of state wise taxes is what props up many states. As I already said KL and KA have already joined arms. I don't know what TN,TS and AP plans to do.

Bengaluru is what it is today (the good part & the bad part) mainly due to the IT industry. At least now other states should think about having their own good IT parks etc., so that people are not kind of forced to migrate to Bengaluru. With good telecommunication facility a lot of work can be carried out across multiple offices spread across the country. This is where the (other) state governments also needs to show some enthusiasm. Who will even think of migration if there are chances to have a good life at one's own mother state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdp1975
I'm very confident that this amendment will be scrapped by the courts - based again on constitutional and legal provisions. And the KA govt knows this better than anyone else, LOL. It's just a matter of time.
On what grounds do you think the amendment would be scrapped by the courts? Again not being sarcastic, but trying to understand what legal aspects do you think will help the amendment to be chucked out. The same HC of Karnataka, which you say chucked out the Entry Tax *, did first put a stay on the LTT collection drive, but has vacated the stay now. So all depends upon the points which the government and the petitioner puts up.

One thing for sure, the right to collect Motor Vehicle Tax is a state's right. So that cannot be ignored by the courts. There is also no central rule or act which governs the tax collection mechanisms. If such a rule exists, KA government cannot have another act which violates the central act's provisions. So with no central guide lines in place, every state can formulate its own taxation scheme and collection schemes. Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act being a state specific act only requires Governor's ascent, which has been given. So the due process of bringing a law is also followed. The only remaining point is the one month stay part. Can the state decide that? Or can the court determine the time period? If the court determines it, on what basis can it give a time frame? The state would also have to give its reasons/justifications on reducing the time frame. Will try getting some more information on the chucking out of Entry Tax by KA government case.

* I remember some one mentioning here that Goa state charges an entry tax from all vehicles entering the state. But they don't charge LTT or any other tax. And if they still do that, it means that it is legally valid (to collect an entry tax).

Last edited by sachinpk : 14th April 2015 at 09:45.
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Old 14th April 2015, 10:15   #1257
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
2. After the amendment came in and RTO squads impounding vehicles a large number of genuine short time visitors (say like tourists) landed in trouble. That is more number of one-time visitors were caught rather than the tax dodgers who were staying put in Bangalore city. The amendment was a failure that long term tax-dodgers were not getting identified and tax dues collected.
This surely has happened, I am a Pune resident, and have driven my current car to Bangalore only twice, that too only as flight tickets were through the roof, and railway tatkal as well as volvo full. The second time round I was stopped thrice, and even with all toll tickets, even suitcases with clothes in the car, they refused to believe that I was only a visitor.
I drive for work in a approx 600 km radius from Pune, I accept being stopped by RTO or police for checking documents, but refusal to believe any proofs happens only in Bangalore and around.

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Old 14th April 2015, 10:23   #1258
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
This surely has happened, I am a Pune resident, and have driven my current car to Bangalore only twice, that too only as flight tickets were through the roof, and railway tatkal as well as volvo full. The second time round I was stopped thrice, and even with all toll tickets, even suitcases with clothes in the car, they refused to believe that I was only a visitor.
I drive for work in a approx 600 km radius from Pune, I accept being stopped by RTO or police for checking documents, but refusal to believe any proofs happens only in Bangalore and around.

Rahul
What was the outcome? How did you manage to convince them? What were their arguments for not accepting your proofs?
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Old 14th April 2015, 11:07   #1259
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

First of all Sachin, I must appreciate the way you have held on your ground against the popular argument throughout the thread. Your ride has been bumpy for obvious reasons and still you are swimming against the tide. Adds a perspective to the discussion; appreciate it.

However, one of the major points of your argument has been the 'state rights'. States have the right to modify the tax structure falling in their domain. But how fair it is to tax people heavily just because they have migrated to KA, according to your logic? Also, the road tax in KA is very high. Many are finding just the tax to be near or equal to the resale value of their cars! Yes, they have the right but along with rights, do come duties - just like our own fundamental rights. When we talk of rights, we should also talk duties. Rights & duties go hand in hand. Has RTO done its duty of maintaining road infrastructure to the extent of matching its road tax structure? So, first KA Govt. should stop this extortion. I am calling this extortion only because KA Govt thinks that it is fine to chuck out money only because the IT population can afford to pay it. This is not the way at least road tax should be. Tax based on income is already paid in form of income tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Can you let me know more about this 6% uniform road tax? Is it some thing new, or it is also part of the proposed Road Transport Safety Bill? RTSB, I have a copy of the draft, did not remember reading any thing on tax set as 6% across India. Karnataka has higher road taxes, and if I get it right even the ex-show room prices are higher here.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/20452645.cms

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/20455020.cms

I believe this has also fueled an exhaustive thread as well.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ll-states.html (Soon, uniform road tax of 6% across all states)


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Not to demean JH as a state, but then why don't people migrate to JH in large numbers? JH could also work on a scheme which provides large scale migration to those parts. The catch here is that employment opportunities are more in KA, at one time thanks to IT etc. disposable income was also high in cities like Bengaluru. KA government clearly identified the new "cash cow", and started milking it.

No offence taken. JH sure is not a top employer, esp when compared to KA but you will be astonished to see the sudden increase in JH population after its separation from Bihar. This increase was due to people shifting to JH as new employment avenues opened up and prospects were high due to new state formation. I cannot quote exact numbers but since I am a localite, I can tell you that. Plus, I have worked for a few years in Delhi as well, which probably has the highest number of cosmopolitan population. I did not see anything like this in DL too. Neither MH nor any other state in India. I would re-iterate over the point that you made of higher disposable incomes in KA. Higher disposable income is not something unique to KA and not all IT people earn lacs a month. If they do, we have a solid Income Tax mechanism to tax them more. KA RTO should not take it like a cash cow as you mentioned. And that does not mean that RTO should see it like a opportunity to increase tax rates and amend existing rules which is unfair to people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Don't confuse MV Act (pan-India) and the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act (only in Karnataka). The state has the rights to determine its vehicle taxes, and they way it can be collected. At the moment there is no central act or guidelines which the states have to follow. Karnataka has used this privilege to alter its laws to ensure that maximum LTT comes into its kitty. One way for non-KA vehicle owners was to prove that they were here for only a month, but from what I could understand many could not prove that at all. Some other groups claiming harassments were also not very visible (and proven) for any one to strike down the law.
Point that I agree. States do have the right. But having a right and using it unjustly and unfairly on its people is not the way a responsible Govt. behaves. If you just go by the rule books, it will make the lives of people miserable. Also, there have been cases where people traveling from different places have been caught by KA RTO officials. Even toll receipts which were as new as a day were not taken into consideration. Verbally and physically abused as well.

Source: http://www.newindianexpress.com/stat...cle2423620.ece

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I am sure that would lead to a lot of court cases, and if KA Govt. tries that let them also find a way to prove their charges. At the moment the time frame is one month, so perhaps we should expect it to remain the same way for quite some time.
All vehicles have to go through check posts/ toll gates before entering any state. If the RTOs were interested, they could have easily created a computerized system to check which vehicles have been in KA for more than a year. Why they had to modify the rule to one month- just because of their incompetency?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Again I feel you are seeing this from an emotional angle (don't take it bad). No government official is authorised to use any force/threats to get a person to follow his instructions. But there again are exemptions. Agencies like police are also authorised to use necessary force to ensure compliance from the person who they are dealing with. RTOs have the power to seize the vehicle which has not paid the LTT. So he also has the rights to use force in case the driver refuses.
I don't think that RTOs have the right to use force against people. They might involve the police for the purpose but RTO cannot do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
In case of physical abuse, harassments etc. there are other avenues to get it addressed. We routinely accuse police of thrashing people inside the lock up. But because that happen, can we also have a situation that we disband the entire police force, or redraft the laws that all their rights to use force are removed? Same is the case here. RTOs may have harassed people, would perhaps even continue to do so. But that is not the excuse for not paying the tax. A rude traffic police officer stops use for driving without a DL. Will you argue that since Traffic Police Officer is rude, your "right" to drive without a DL has to be accommodated? Tell me one country in this world which has such a legal system.

Never argued for that. But how about changing the rule that you cannot drive with a JH licence in KA because the state RTO does not approve it. And overnight, I become an offender? How about overnight change of rules that a person cannot hold a licence before 25 years of age? In that case, all the 18-24 year population holding valid DLs become offenders overnight. The KA RTO has done a similar change of rule which suits them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Let all of us, just continue to have our own assumptions but finally it is the law which would be considered.
Only because it is a law or a rule does not makes it fair or even right. Many such rules & laws have been abolished in past. Even our top book, the Constitution has seen several amendments and this one is just a state MV act. One day this will be abolished too for sure. We cannot blindly justify it just because it is a law. Plus I would like a clarification as well. I am not sure, but isn't road tax calculated on the amount which is Ex-showroom + state VAT? Doesn't it mean double taxation. Is it right? Please enlighten me on this one.

Regards,
Saket

Last edited by saket77 : 14th April 2015 at 11:18.
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Old 14th April 2015, 11:08   #1260
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Bengaluru is what it is today (the good part & the bad part) mainly due to the IT industry. At least now other states should think about having their own good IT parks etc., so that people are not kind of forced to migrate to Bengaluru. With good telecommunication facility a lot of work can be carried out across multiple offices spread across the country. This is where the (other) state governments also needs to show some enthusiasm. Who will even think of migration if there are chances to have a good life at one's own mother state?
I was going to let this pass since it is a well-meaning, harmless piece of advice at first glance. But the part marked by me in bold stopped me cold. FYI, Karnataka is my "mother state" (both parents born and raised there though I am domiciled in MH). Secondly- and more importantly- I don't think anybody, least of all the government, has a say in me as a free citizen of India, choosing where to settle down and work. I am certainly not bound by any law to work in my "mother state". If a decent opportunity presents itself, I will certainly move back to Bangalore if I choose to.

Quote:
One thing for sure, the right to collect Motor Vehicle Tax is a state's right. So that cannot be ignored by the courts. There is also no central rule or act which governs the tax collection mechanisms. If such a rule exists, KA government cannot have another act which violates the central act's provisions.
Laws have to be based on common sense. It is not unheard of (especially in IT industry but not limited to it) for people to be transferred temporarily (say for a period of 3-6 months) to a different location. The KA government's arbitratrily defined 30-day limit thus makes no sense. Plus look at the example I have quoted above: is it fair to expect a salaried employee to cough up more than 20% of the car's residual value on a car that is legally registered in another state? The courts definitely have a duty to intervene in the interests of fairness. I won't be surprised if the Union govt gets involved sooner or later. Till that happens, the KA govt can show some compassion in such cases. Note that I am not talking about cars that have been registered out of state and run exclusively in KA (that ironically happens more than you might imagine- but the ones who practice it are well-connected enough to drive their Nagaland registered Bentleys without being hassled!)
I am not talking theoretically here- have been subjected to (Karnataka Road Tax, Crack down announced.EDIT: High Court Judgement on Pg 36 attached) this legal extortion when I moved from Mumbai to Bangalore 13 years ago!

Last edited by noopster : 14th April 2015 at 11:58. Reason: Corrected home state= mother state
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