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Old 14th April 2015, 12:22   #1261
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77
States have the right to modify the tax structure falling in their domain. But how fair it is to tax people heavily just because they have migrated to KA, according to your logic? Also, the road tax in KA is very high.
It becomes only discriminatory if an additional tax is levied just for non-KA vehicles. Here it is uniform. A person registering the vehicle in KA also has to pay the same amount of taxes. Even a person in KA cannot say he would not pay motor vehicle tax here because it is too high. Then he would also have the same fate, as a person having a non-KA vehicle. This is not a tax which effects only people who have migrated. In fact in my own friend's circle I know people who heavily supported the move by the RTO. Their argument was that, "why should we pay through our noses the high taxes in KA when other people with non-KA vehicle can just zoom around with impunity?".

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Has RTO done its duty of maintaining road infrastructure to the extent of matching its road tax structure?
The roads are maintained by state PWD (and NHAI for national highways), in in case of city the city corporations. The funds for these are allocated at the state level, with what ever money the state gets as revenue (through taxes of various means).

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I am calling this extortion only because KA Govt thinks that it is fine to chuck out money only because the IT population can afford to pay it. This is not the way at least road tax should be.
Humbly disagree. Any person (irrespective of his income) has to pay the same road taxes as any one else. KA does not have a variable motor vehicle tax based on the person's income or social status. So thinking in those terms, every non-KA vehicle owner who is dodging the KA road tax is in a way making the genuine tax payer (even the poorest of them) look like a fool. Even with a higher pay bracket, how many IT employees would have paid the LTT upfront? There could be many, but I don't think that group is the majority.

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And that does not mean that RTO should see it like a opportunity to increase tax rates and amend existing rules which is unfair to people.
KA has not increased the tax rate for out siders. Yes the amended the state rule in order to net more tax-dodgers and make them pay up. The 6% taxation for all states does not seem to have taken off. And perhaps the Central Government is busy with other more important legislations. The only way I can see is that Central Government using the Article in concurrent lists to define a policy on motor vehicle taxation (right now it is blank), which automatically would make the states to change their laws. But again political implications would be there, and no political party can ignore that.

Quote:
If the RTOs were interested, they could have easily created a computerized system to check which vehicles have been in KA for more than a year.
Will not fit the requirement, of proving continuous stay. One thing this requires huge infrastructure - not just computers, but RTO counters to keep track of vehicles in and out. Just think about the situation we have at Attibele toll booths when there is a week end rush. We don't have an automatic number identification system. So it would be a manual process for exit (from KA) & entry (into KA). Using the entry and exit data, KA RTO would not be able to prove continuous stay in KA territory. It can only prove that the vehicle owner likes KA a lot and makes frequent trips in and out.

That is why KA RTO decided to catch the suspects at most vulnerable locations. Mainly in front of their apartments, or in front of their office buildings. That is why they started taking pictures of apartment/office parking stickers etc. All these moves generally would take the courage out of tax-dodger. In the recent drive near my office complex, the moment photographs etc. were taken the accused lost the moral courage to fight back. Because these chaps were staying in 70-80 lakh apartments for years together, but dodging the tax. Exceptions may be those genuine one-time travellers who have the moral conviction, which says they have done no wrong. And that was also why I was trying to know how many people (caught by the RTO) even bothered to contest the case.

Quote:
I don't think that RTOs have the right to use force against people.
They have the rights to seize the vehicles/impound the documents. But not use force like say lathi charges etc. which the police has. But obstructing a government servant from doing his duty is another charge, and also the RTO has the right for self-defence. So being rude to the RTOs, threatening them, or attacking them - may not be the best idea. Unless you know your own contacts at higher levels, and confident that they would be of help.

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But how about changing the rule that you cannot drive with a JH licence in KA because the state RTO does not approve it. And overnight, I become an offender?
The KA state and its RTO cannot make such a move. The licensing requirements and regulations are all in Motor Vehicle Act, 1988 which is a central government act. States can only make modifications with approval from Central government and the president allowing the amendment. Motor Vehicle Taxation is a state subject, where KA (or any other state) has much more liberties. Don't confuse the provisions in Central M.V Act and Rules, with the provisions in KA Motor Vehicle Taxation Act.

Quote:
I am not sure, but isn't road tax calculated on the amount which is Ex-showroom + state VAT? Doesn't it mean double taxation. Is it right?
Not an expert in taxation. But my understanding is that VAT and MV Tax are considered as different. Double taxation, I don't know if it is illegal. If it is illegal, I feel some one may have challenged this in the court already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster
Secondly- and more importantly- I don't think anybody, least of all the government, has a say in me as a free citizen of India, choosing where to settle down and work. I am certainly not bound by any law to work in my "home state"
Nor was it my intention. I will take my own example. Given a chance I prefer to work in KL (my home state), own a vehicle there, pay KL tax dues and lead a fruitful life. But unfortunately with my skill sets I don't find much employment opportunities in KL. KA gave me those opportunities so I am here. And now I would have to pretty much work along with the rules in place (including the vehicle related rules, building related rules etc.). I did not follow any rule book, but just realised what are the options for me. No point in cribbing. If a better opportunity pops up in KL, I may go back there. Even if that involves paying an LTT there .

Quote:
It is not unheard of (especially in IT industry but not limited to it) for people to be transferred temporarily (say for a period of 3-6 months) to a different location
The central government employees (who are duty bound to work in any part of India) have some exemptions when it comes to paying Motor Vehicle Tax. But I don't think this benefit would be just passed onto any private company, including IT companies. The government can just say that all these transfers within private organisation is between that organisation and the employee. They should sort it out.

Quote:
I won't be surprised if the Union govt gets involved sooner or later. Till that happens, the KA govt can show some compassion in such cases
When you ask for compassion, are you not ignoring the people who have paid the so-called high motor vehicle tax? A person's opinion on any issue, I feel is also partially influenced by what he sees around him. In my case, the worst thing I have seen is an IT employee (getting paid more than me), making a big hue and cry after the RTO caught his non-KA vehicle. He owns a big flat out there on the Eastern suburbs, and was staying for 2 years. That chap's tantrum that day was as if KA RTO had done some big injustice to him. That is when I realised that I paid the LTT and followed the law, where as there are others better off than me dodging the tax and then start throwing tantrums (in office only, not with the RTO) when caught with their pants down. Another chap was who used to joke that he would use his KL vehicle, and bribe his way out if caught. His smirk and jokes stopped the moment he saw that RTOs are sparing none this time. Then it was a mad rush to his home town to KL to drop the vehicle. My current stance is mainly after seeing people who could afford to pay, given enough and more grace period to pay up, still dodging the tax, feeling proud about it and then whining when get caught.

Happy Tamil & Malayalam New Year.. !!!

Last edited by sachinpk : 14th April 2015 at 12:26.
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Old 14th April 2015, 12:30   #1262
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
I was going to let this pass since it is a well-meaning, harmless piece of advice at first glance. But the part marked by me in bold stopped me cold.
Thanks Noops for pitching in!

Somehow, every time this thread was re-opened , I was very confident that eventually we will have the main topic take different route(s) and it has happened again and will continue to happen.

It is simple Pay the taxes if your vehicle/Duration falls into the Category.

What is complex is this
  • 30 Day is way too less for anyone to pay LTT considering how transfers happen with IT companies having offices across the country
  • Pouncing on genuine travellers who are in the city for a day or two or a week to pay up taxes (this has happened anyway)
  • Why did you come into my city in the first place!!
Regarding how and why Bangalore attracts migrants, well, we all need to grow up to learn that today the drain is not exactly into this city alone and a lot (and a lot more) has expanded in the West (Pune & Mumbai) and the NCR Region.

IT parks? They have sprung up so big that each city can compete with one another on who is the big daddy just like the claims for the biggest mall/Multiplexes. Cmon We all know the IT burst but now its all settled and settled across the nation and there is no denying that. Almost every company have their locations in these 3 regions most of the time ( Enable your CV on that Job portal and see what locations are you offered).

Now you may argue that if given a choice many will opt for Bangalore due to its Climate but gone are those days and we cant shy away from the woes that we suffer in the name of Traffic snarls on a daily basis, Exorbitant expenses happily shadowed under the umbrella of pleasant weather when the reality is that Temperatures now reach 35-37 Degrees in summers...!!

Oh wait, Trucks happily driven all around the city (and even breaking down) round the clock when other Metros have successfully implemented a Ban while our authorities give in to the pressure by the lobby!

Let us stop singing the glory of My place better than yours. This thread is not to talk about reasons why people flock a particular city. It is about paying Taxes and discussing why the rule is not uniform across the nation when it comes to the duration of stay and why even a visitor is harassed. I dont need to mention how someone working in EC from Hosur had his vehicle seized for paying taxes.

Try doing this to all the vehicles driving till the Border between MH and KA to fill up cheaper fuel in Karnataka (BPCL COCO at Kagal).

Let Goa have a rule to ask folks to pay full tax for those vehicles filling up petrol cheaper by almost 10 bucks at that IOCL Station in Goa before Karwar every weekend.

Dont scratch your head(s) I am born in Karnataka (Including my parents) and I speak better Kannada than my mother tongue. I am not against Tax collection. I am against rules like this -30 Days and you pay!

I have spent a considerable time in Pune with my KA Registered car (6 months) and have been stopped thrice only to be let away once I showed my Toll receipts (I used to drive to Bangalore almost every fortnight then) and told them I was only for a temporary period. I may have entered and exited Pune at least 50 times by my KA registered car in the last 4 years alone!

They always stop me below the Vashi Bridge (at Turbhe) whenever I am driving Mumbai or GJ and I have always showed them the luggage, Toll receipts and latest emission test certificate and asked to continue. No they didn't ask me proof of residence!

Lastly, if the expectation is to build Parks to ensure one works in his motherland, I guess it makes better sense to build factories and IT parks in the village/town that you were born and educated. That way, you will not only be in your motherland but also stick and excel and multiply in your hometown. Why throng to the state capital isnt it?

Back to the topic now.

EDIT: If this can further make you believe and trust me that I am a genuine tax payer. We drove a BHPian's used Palio after striking a deal from Delhi and paid up full LTT within 3 months in Bangalore because we knew the car will settle in Bangalore for good.

Last edited by Technocrat : 15th April 2015 at 01:25. Reason: removed extra styling tags, thanks
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Old 14th April 2015, 12:55   #1263
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
EDIT: If this can further make you believe and trust me that I am a genuine tax payer. We drove a BHPian's used Palio after striking a deal from Delhi and paid up full LTT within 3 months in Bangalore because we knew the car will settle in Bangalore for good.
You hit the nail on its head Parag. I bought a used car a few months ago which was WB registered having a VIP number plate. With the help of previous owner, I got the NOC in 2 months from WB and applied for new registration (despite having to lose the fancy number) and will be paying the LTT in JH where the car would be. The matter is under process. And I am talking of JH where there are plenty of vehicles from outside JH and particularly WB. RTO is very lenient about out of state registration and I have never ever in my life seen a vehicle stopped for carrying out of state registration plates. YET I am willing to pay the LTT here, first because it is my duty, secondly it helps a lot when the tax structure is reasonable. I would be paying as much if I take my 12+ years Zen which has INR ~4L of invoice value to KA against taking a Civic (INR~13L invoice value) to JH. Is it fair on KA's part?

Last edited by saket77 : 14th April 2015 at 12:58.
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Old 14th April 2015, 12:59   #1264
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
did first put a stay on the LTT collection drive, but has vacated the stay now.
Dont want to comment on court, but its a political drama. The judge who stayed the BS was immediately transferred and the stay is vacated by the new Judge, why and how, better judge yourself.

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
first because it is my duty
As I had mentioned before, this is not at all a duty unless the states across India has a proper refunding process, it becomes double taxation, the same was quoted by the Andhra HC verdict. States cannot remote themselves saying we are not concerned about the refund process of other states, same for KA also, KA is still a state in India.

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 14th April 2015 at 13:04.
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Old 14th April 2015, 13:30   #1265
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post

Don't confuse MV Act (pan-India) and the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act (only in Karnataka). The state has the rights to determine its vehicle taxes, and they way it can be collected. At the moment there is no central act or guidelines which the states have to follow. Karnataka has used this privilege to alter its laws to ensure that maximum LTT comes into its kitty. One way for non-KA vehicle owners was to prove that they were here for only a month, but from what I could understand many could not prove that at all. Some other groups claiming harassments were also not very visible (and proven) for any one to strike down the law.
My question to you is why is it that one has to pay LTT in the first place. Thats the main reason people are not comfortable paying the tax. Today if I have to shift to Bangalore I will have to pay nearly a lakh in Tax where in my own state I paid 40k because I have the option of paying for 5 years. When the KA government is aware that there are short term immigrants coming into the city they should introduce 1/2/3/5 year options rather than forcing people to pay for 15 years specially for vehicles which are already 4-5 years plus. 90% of the people will happily pay, maybe in most cases even their companies will pay that. You can't punish someone for driving into your state assuming that person will stay there for 15 years.
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Old 14th April 2015, 14:40   #1266
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I think nobody here is opposed to paying LTT after one year of moving to KA. Yes, there will be people who exploit the loopholes and don't pay tax. It is their responsibility to pay LTT and if they do not, then the state is fully within its rights to apprehend them. However, here the state does not want to take the pains of identifying the actual tax evaders, they just want to squeeze everyone. If the motto of our justice system is "No innocent shall be punished even if a 1000 criminals go free", KA RTOs system is "We will harass a 1000 innocents to catch 1 criminal".

Kerala govt has followed in the footsteps of KA govt, but at the moment, the policy is far more reasonable - pay about Rs.1500 for any 4-wheeler which stays in the state for more than 30 days and pay LTT after 1 year. If KA govt had adopted a similar system I don't think there would have been such hue and cry. But LTT after 1 month? That is "tax terrorism".
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Old 14th April 2015, 16:51   #1267
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I have a query for the intra-company employee transfers into Bangalore. Don't such people get reimbursed for the LTT to be paid? I know my employer (non-IT) reimburses every paise but based on the RTO bill.

When I moved to BLR a few years back I knew perfectly well about the comparatively high LTT. I planned well in advance, sacked off my MH cars and now have 2 KA vehicles.

On a lighter note, there are many 'unfair' taxes from any government such as on F&B (eating out), alcohol, cigarettes etc. This is just one more of them!

Last edited by itwasntme : 14th April 2015 at 16:56. Reason: Grammar!
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Old 14th April 2015, 17:57   #1268
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

@itwasntme: what about the ridiculous 24% luxury tax you pay in a hospital for medical treatment?
Back to the topic, does any bank offer loan to pay off taxes. I'm sure not many of us have more than ₹1 Lakh disposable balance lying around in our accounts. If we could pay in monthly instalments of 5-10k, for 2 years, most people wouldn't mind.
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Old 14th April 2015, 18:05   #1269
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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I think nobody here is opposed to paying LTT after one year of moving to KA.
I am. I don't like the idea of paying LTT in every state I live in - if that were the case, by now I'd have paid about 50% of my car cost in taxes alone. As far as I'm concerned once I've paid a tax it is done with - it is called "lifetime tax" for a reason, one presumes.
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Old 14th April 2015, 19:11   #1270
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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I am. I don't like the idea of paying LTT in every state I live in - if that were the case, by now I'd have paid about 50% of my car cost in taxes alone. As far as I'm concerned once I've paid a tax it is done with - it is called "lifetime tax" for a reason, one presumes.
You have raised a larger issue. However, as long as road tax rates are decided and collected by the respective state govts, I would say that term "lifetime" in "lifetime tax" refers to the lifetime of the car within the state boundary only. You knew this fully well when you paid up, so I think your presumption is incorrect. But it is unfortunate that the state did not leave you any other choice. This needs to change and I am fully with you on this. I agree that "ideally" tax once paid should be enough to use your vehicle anywhere across the country.
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Old 14th April 2015, 20:10   #1271
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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You have raised a larger issue. However, as long as road tax rates are decided and collected by the respective state govts, I would say that term "lifetime" in "lifetime tax" refers to the lifetime of the car within the state boundary only.
So is sales tax - but I didn't have tax department officials queuing up at my door when I moved from one state to another to collect tax on my fridge, TV, washing machine...
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Old 14th April 2015, 20:13   #1272
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

we are all venting out in this thread - i think rightly so.

I would like to spit fire on "educational cess" of 11%
11 % ? have you seen anything more ridiculous in any kind of tax/fee that you have paid to any govt (state/central) ?

KA govt - you have surpassed the sugarcane juicer.

See for yourselves :
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Old 14th April 2015, 20:18   #1273
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So is sales tax - but I didn't have tax department officials queuing up at my door when I moved from one state to another to collect tax on my fridge, TV, washing machine...
This argument can be used the other way round as well. You are using your new state's infrastructure to power up your TV, fridge, washing machine and do not mind paying for the same. So why do you not want to pay road tax for using the roads in your new state?
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Old 14th April 2015, 20:31   #1274
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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This argument can be used the other way round as well. You are using your new state's infrastructure to power up your TV, fridge, washing machine and do not mind paying for the same. So why do you not want to pay road tax for using the roads in your new state?
Because in the previous state I did not pay already for a lifetime's electricity supply. I paid only month on month. So one month I quit AP, stopped paying AP TRANSCO, next month I'm in KA and am paying BESCOM.
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Old 14th April 2015, 21:08   #1275
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Because in the previous state I did not pay already for a lifetime's electricity supply. I paid only month on month. So one month I quit AP, stopped paying AP TRANSCO, next month I'm in KA and am paying BESCOM.
So you don't want to pay your new state anything to use their infrastructure just because you paid a lot of money to your old state knowing fully well while paying that what you pay is not valid outside the state. Your argument does not make sense to me. We are back to where we started.

I am not sure how different sales tax rules are. I know for sure that while my friend had sent his household goods from Kerala to EU through a relocation company based in Bangalore, the company's truck was stopped at the border and he was asked to pay tax on a relatively new electronic equipment. He got away since he had papers to prove that the goods were to be sent outside the country. I am sure if the cost-benefit equation for collecting sales tax was favourable to the state, they would have come after your TV and the like too - if the law allows it.
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