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Old 19th April 2015, 01:57   #1321
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by monster2 View Post
Urgent help required,

Has Anyone paid Road Tax in Bangalore for Honda Civic VMT 2009 Model the Road tax paid in Mumbai was 193000, NOC taken for Karnataka in June 2014, any penalty should be paid? Can I any one please tell me the Road Tax amount
Please get the previous NOC cancelled and get a new one issued.God forbid if you are caught by these guys, you will have to pay a hefty fine apart from the huge LTT.

Please let me know what was the ex-showroom price of the vehicle (include VAT) and i will let you know the LTT amount to be paid in Karnataka.

Wasem.....
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Old 20th April 2015, 07:24   #1322
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by monster2 View Post
Urgent help required,

Has Anyone paid Road Tax in Bangalore for Honda Civic VMT 2009 Model the Road tax paid in Mumbai was 193000, NOC taken for Karnataka in June 2014, any penalty should be paid? Can I any one please tell me the Road Tax amount
Refer post # 1293 that shows the table from KA RTO as to how the road tax is computed. You need to know the invoice price (ex showroom price) of the vehicle.
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Old 20th April 2015, 09:55   #1323
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD
I request them to take time & read this judgement which was pronounced by the Chief Justice of Hyderabad High Court.
Though I am not a direct or indirect beneficiary of the ill-gotten wealth of any government official in Karnataka (including the RTO), I did read the Hon. AP HC's verdict. At the very outset I feel that the AP government did not have a proper law in place. The judges rightly identified that the sections using which AP government tried to get the LTT, did not have any instructions on collecting LTT. It was just a provision to ensure that the state gets intimated when a non-AP or non-TS vehicle is being used in AP or TS territory for more than 30 days (Sec 96 of the AMV Rules). Where as Karnataka if you notice has gone by the rule book, by amending not the vehicle Motor Vehicle Rules, but the Motor Vehicle Taxation Act and got the Governor's ascent as well. So I don't think Hon. AP & TS HC's verdict can be used to convince the Hon. Karnataka H.C.

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We are in receipt of the certified copy where-in the stay got vacated and we will soon be filing an appeal which will come-up before a larger bench.
Can you share with us the exact reasons on why the stay got vacated? And on what grounds would the appeal get filed?

By the way comparing Karnataka government to Nazi government of Germany seems to be a bit off the mark, and thinking in too much emotional terms. I would once again say that Karnataka has just used the rights any Indian state, which has been duly given to her by the Indian Constitution. The state has not hijacked any right illegally.

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he city, thanks to its good stars in heaven, saw some phenomenal growth in last two decades and roped in people from all across the country to chase their 'Indian dream'; if there is anything like that.
The city did no "roping in". It was people from all over the country barging into the city looking for a better life. The Mayor of Bangalore or CM of Karnataka did not go through the entire country asking people to come and settle down in KA. Rather they could see the future of IT, and allowed IT shops to be set in.

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I say that it was their only mistake because they have rightfully paid the entire due road tax to the state from where they are coming.
They paid LTT in their respective states, but their tax dues for KA are still due. I am unable to figure out how this simple thing is missed. Collection of Motor Vehicle taxes are a state's prerogative at the moment. We can try changing that, but it is going to be a lengthy process.

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In short, you allowed tax heavens to creep up near your state borders and then you unleash the whip on those 'Revenue thieves'. All right Sir, they are the thieves but who gave them the motive, huh?
I really like this. This is just like saying to a person who got his house broken into, that he gave the thief a chance by giving an impression that there is some huge money out there. KA has the rights to impose its motor vehicle taxes, it need not check with TN, KA, GA or AP for that. They also don't have to cross check any thing with KA. But all these states have also the right to ensure that their tax dues gets collected in a manner which does not break any other law, or citizen's rights.

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The ongoing situation in Bangalore has really torn apart a city which is known for its cosmopolitan culture and the mix of people from all parts of country.
Never knew that cosmopolitan culture really means any one can just come in, and then expect the state government authorities give them a blank cheque to as they please.

Do keep us all posted on the appeals, and if you feel so the grounds on which the appeal is getting filed.
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Old 20th April 2015, 11:00   #1324
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I dont why people have problem with coming to a state and contributing to its well being ! If you just remember Amazon putting on hold its new investments and asking for sops from Karnataka govt, you will realize that someone doesn't just come and establish themselves in the state for no reason.

The state gives sops which they duly use and then provide opportunities for everyone without discrimination. The state was in the forefront of doing things right which led to Bengaluru becoming what it is (this is not just recent phenomenon, its been happening even when the Maharajas were in power). Its not just about people flocking here to enrich the city/state.
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Old 20th April 2015, 14:11   #1325
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The city did no "roping in". It was people from all over the country barging into the city looking for a better life. The Mayor of Bangalore or CM of Karnataka did not go through the entire country asking people to come and settle down in KA. Rather they could see the future of IT, and allowed IT shops to be set in.
You sound xenophobic my friend with these kind of statements. Though not as aggressive as at some other places.
No one needs invitation to settle anywhere in the country. It's their fundamental right. That's why we call it a country.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
They paid LTT in their respective states, but their tax dues for KA are still due. I am unable to figure out how this simple thing is missed. Collection of Motor Vehicle taxes are a state's prerogative at the moment. We can try changing that, but it is going to be a lengthy process.
This is not a simple thing. You can't be taxed twice for the same thing unless it is VAT. Isn't the state part of the federation? You (and KA state) seem to be mixing up migrants with immigrants.

You are talking about rights of states all the time. How about rights of the citizens?

People trying to find ways to not to pay the same tax twice isn't tax evasion. State is the culprit to impose and enforce such rules.

Enough of the nonsense that all migrants staying over 30 days are planning to settle down in Bangalore and hence the state should forcefully extort LTT for 15 years or else confiscate vehicles. That's as cruel as TADA.

Do you think company Ids of some middle of the road IT folks are the proofs? I think only purchase of a residential property in Bangalore makes a prima facie case. Still it ought to be proved that that person purchased it for living and not for just investment.

The main problem is that KA government has gone berserk with the enforcement of a rule which is completely out of tune with the time.
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Old 20th April 2015, 14:20   #1326
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
You sound xenophobic my friend with these kind of statements. Though not as aggressive as at some other places.
No one needs invitation to settle anywhere in the country. It's their fundamental right. That's why we call it a country.


I think he was responding to a post when he said this. 30 days is a absurd option. That doesnt make it xenophobic. I think use of such words is not really constructive in discussions. I have seen this word being used a lot and says a lot of people being on defensive and have such inkling. It could be a greedy govt wanting to mobilize funds for its reckless attitude. Or it could be a govt not knowing how to make people pay up when people dont want to.
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Old 20th April 2015, 14:24   #1327
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia
No one needs invitation to settle anywhere in the country. It's their fundamental right. That's why we call it a country.
Yeah, you can settle down any where in India (except in J&K). But then you also have some state wise taxes to pay up. So yes, avail your fundamental right and settle down in Karnataka. Did the government ever stop you from that? But then if you bring in a vehicle, use it for more than 30 days here (as per current law), also be willing to shell out some amount as LTT. I guess the feeling here is that Karnataka is a charity establishment .

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You can't be taxed twice for the same thing unless it is VAT. Isn't the state part of the federation?
Please read a bit more on the state's right to levy taxes (Federation or other wise). Motor Vehicle taxation rights remain with the state. This is at present the law of the land. Well yes, it can be amended. But no one seems to be doing that. But that is not an excuse for not paying tax dues.

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People trying to find ways to not to pay the same tax twice isn't tax evasion. State is the culprit to impose and enforce such rules.
I have been trying to quote various legal documents to prove that state has the right to levy motor vehicle tax. If you find that it is double-taxation, you would have to show some legal proof to say that is the case. Will you help me with that? Calling the state the culprit etc., is not going change any thing.

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Do you think company Ids of some middle of the road IT folks are the proofs? I think only purchase of a residential property in Bangalore makes a prima facie case. Still it ought to be proved that that person purchased it for living and not for just investment.
The RTO was collecting evidence to prove that the vehicle was used in Karnataka roads the majority of the time. The LTT is collected assuming that the vehicle would be in use (or was being used) in Karnataka for a long duration (currently over one month). So purchase of residential property etc. is not required to prove any thing. The tax is for using the vehicle in Karnataka, not for planning to settle down in Karnataka and using the vehicle. My previous vehicle had LTT paid here, I used it for seven years. But even today I don't have any property in Bengaluru. Do you think Karnataka RTO should allow me to have a tax-free ride for these seven years, just because I did not have a property here?
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Old 20th April 2015, 15:14   #1328
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
Enough of the nonsense that all migrants staying over 30 days are planning to settle down in Bangalore and hence the state should forcefully extort LTT for 15 years or else confiscate vehicles.
There have been SC judgments on "compensatory taxation". The right to tax is not absolute or arbitrary. If one is paying tax - there should be something in return - like improved road infrastructure, facilities, etc - and I think that's fair enough.

Collecting LTT for 30 days and diverting a major part of it to free food schemes is not going to stand judicial scrutiny, as also the absence of a refund mechanism if one leaves the state.

See also http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/taxes_int.htm .

What KL/GA imposed can still be termed reasonable in terms of compensatory taxation, but not what KA decided to do. KA didn't quite start a LTT drive , it really started a movement against it.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 20th April 2015 at 15:21.
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Old 20th April 2015, 16:50   #1329
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sdp1975
There have been SC judgments on "compensatory taxation". The right to tax is not absolute or arbitrary. If one is paying tax - there should be something in return - like improved road infrastructure, facilities, etc - and I think that's fair enough.
The government can be questioned on how the tax funds are getting utilised. If roads are poor, that can be highlighted and government forced to take action. But no one can take a stand that motor vehicle taxes would NOT be paid till they are all personally satisfied with the developments all around.

Quote:
Collecting LTT for 30 days and diverting a major part of it to free food schemes is not going to stand judicial scrutiny, as also the absence of a refund mechanism if one leaves the state.
Can you help me with any case laws in which courts have given a clear instruction that tax collected from any source has to be spent 100% on improving areas related to the sources? Because states like KL used to rake in huge revenues by selling liquor. In that case KL will have to push back this huge amount to say start more bars, beverages corp. outlet etc. The link you posted is related to Regulatory taxes related to trades etc. My understanding is that Motor Vehicle Taxes do not come in that bracket.
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Old 20th April 2015, 17:19   #1330
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The RTO was collecting evidence to prove that the vehicle was used in Karnataka roads the majority of the time. The LTT is collected assuming that the vehicle would be in use (or was being used) in Karnataka for a long duration (currently over one month). So purchase of residential property etc. is not required to prove any thing. The tax is for using the vehicle in Karnataka, not for planning to settle down in Karnataka and using the vehicle. My previous vehicle had LTT paid here, I used it for seven years. But even today I don't have any property in Bengaluru. Do you think Karnataka RTO should allow me to have a tax-free ride for these seven years, just because I did not have a property here?
Do you have anything to back up that claim about the RTO collecting evidence, have you seen how the drives are conducted? Don't keep trolling this thread saying the same thing, basically that it bugs you that people who are in IT make more money than you(post #1261 on this thread), hence should be shaken down, if the RTO has a problem with IT employees driving out of state cars, let KA bring a law to that effect .The LTT is collected based on the assumption that anyone driving an out of state car coming out of an IT park is guilty of evading taxes(quite a stretch of the term), that is how the law is implemented, so anyone who is driving in EC or Whitefield has to stop and explain why he is driving an out of state car, haven't heard of such harassment in any other part of India. The collection drive is on only in Bangalore, so its not KA centric, just Bangalore city alone, considering what roads are like in the rest of KA, no one will want to take their cars there, not to mention that all driveable road are toll roads built with loans/central government funds, so much for the taxes for development drivel. I know you are completely ignorant/jealous of what IT incomes are like, you own post said so, someone moving to Bangalore has to pay 10 months advance rent, then on top of that if they are expected to pay up 15% of their car's value upfront, maybe you can calculate how much that would be and feel happy that people who make more money than you are being harassed, something that you repeatedly cheer. KA can start a collection at the border along with commercial vehicles and be done with it.

You remind of those guys in Munnar cheering while the government tore down hotels after retrospectively changing land use laws, they were just thrilled that the "rich" would be hurt.
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Old 20th April 2015, 17:43   #1331
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by avira_tk
Do you have anything to back up that claim about the RTO collecting evidence, have you seen how the drives are conducted?
There was a drive conducted in my part of town. There as a huge parking lot of an IT company. Four squads were there - two each on both sides of the road focusing on vehicles coming from one direction. As soon as a non-KA vehicle came out of the parking lot, the squad asked it to pull to the side. The IT company issues parking stickers with a validity date. So any one which had the sticker which was older than one month, was in trouble. These stickers were taken as evidence, and the owner asked for further proof with which he can say that he came to the campus just recently (less than one month). May be the sight of the RTO officers, and plus the vehicle owner in is heart of heart knew (guilty complex) that his vehicle was here for more than a month, did not find any one arguing. The vehicle was seized (most of them did not have any other original document with them) and taken to a huge KSRTC depot near by. Any way just like a normal Traffic stop, these were never a smooth affair. Minor protests, or excuses were made by every vehicle owner. The same scenario when Traffic Police catches rule violators as well. But if it was like RTO officials shouting around and the poor terrorised "Techie" already in his knees, nothing like that happened. But it was also not the case where the RTO "requested/begged" the tax-dodger as well. So a very stern and sombre activity, is what I observed in may part of the town.

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The LTT is collected based on the assumption that anyone driving an out of state car coming out of an IT park is guilty of evading taxes(quite a stretch of the term), that is how the law is implemented, so anyone who is driving in EC or Whitefield has to stop and explain why he is driving an out of state car, haven't heard of such harassment in any other part of India.
Even before this amendment was in force Karnataka RTO officials had the rights to stop any vehicle and check for tax documents (KA as well as non-KA). The driver is duty bound to stop the vehicle and comply with the instructions. The amendment does not say at what place vehicle stops should be made and which professionals needs to be targetted. But a simple check would make any RTO know which are the areas where chances of tax dodgers would be high . Say you launch such a drive in Srirampura or Anekal, there would not be very many tax-dodgers out there. But focus on Electronics City, Sarjapur Road, Outer Ring road lots of them to catch.

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I know you are completely ignorant/jealous of what IT incomes are like, you own post said so
A person owning a vehicle also needs to work on his/her finances to pay off taxes etc. I may be ignorant/jealous of the IT employees (I leave it with you to judge), but what I know is that a person having a house or vehicle also needs to have some plans to close the tax dues, loans etc.

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someone moving to Bangalore has to pay 10 months advance rent, then on top of that if they are expected to pay up 15% of their car's value upfront
If you don't want to pay up 10 months advance rent, then figure out a way out of it. Either try getting a more lenient land-lord who can waive it off, or find out an area which this is not required. Today the market economy is so bad that if one "Techie" cannot pay 10 months advance to a land-lord, there would be another five "Techies" from a near by company who can do that . The way you framed your sentence made me feel that some one actually threatened you to take up a job in Bengaluru. That was not the case, am I right? Pretty much every one who came to Bengaluru came out of their own free will, seeking a better life out here.

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KA can start a collection at the border along with commercial vehicles and be done with it.
That's a good idea. It is bringing back the "Entry Tax". But then expect huge traffic blocks in all entry points to the state. A problem may be that a vehicle can pay a nominal amount as an entry tax and then continue to stay in the state for a very long time. Any ways, I have shared my thoughts on a similar scheme a few pages before this one.

Last edited by sachinpk : 20th April 2015 at 17:56.
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Old 20th April 2015, 17:59   #1332
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I think he was responding to a post when he said this. 30 days is a absurd option. That doesnt make it xenophobic.
I call what it is. Talking about invitations by CM/Mayor is xenophobic.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Yeah, you can settle down any where in India (except in J&K). But then you also have some state wise taxes to pay up. So yes, avail your fundamental right and settle down in Karnataka. Did the government ever stop you from that? But then if you bring in a vehicle, use it for more than 30 days here (as per current law), also be willing to shell out some amount as LTT. I guess the feeling here is that Karnataka is a charity establishment .
So is talking about state charity. Despite of the fact that the state is actually supposed to be benevolent benefactor and it's primary job is welfare of citizens. Not extortion.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
This is at present the law of the land. Well yes, it can be amended. But no one seems to be doing that. But that is not an excuse for not paying tax dues.


I have been trying to quote various legal documents to prove that state has the right to levy motor vehicle tax. If you find that it is double-taxation, you would have to show some legal proof to say that is the case. Will you help me with that? Calling the state the culprit etc., is not going change any thing.


The RTO was collecting evidence to prove that the vehicle was used in Karnataka roads the majority of the time. The LTT is collected assuming that the vehicle would be in use (or was being used) in Karnataka for a long duration (currently over one month). So purchase of residential property etc. is not required to prove any thing. The tax is for using the vehicle in Karnataka, not for planning to settle down in Karnataka and using the vehicle. My previous vehicle had LTT paid here, I used it for seven years. But even today I don't have any property in Bengaluru. Do you think Karnataka RTO should allow me to have a tax-free ride for these seven years, just because I did not have a property here?
You have nothing else to say (which you have been repeating innumerable time) that this is a state matter. And states can make and enforce any kind of law whether it is justified or not. Because it needs revenue.

A government which blows most of it's money due to corruption should target the easiest prey. The migrant worker. He isn't anyone's vote bank. That's why the state government is so brazen with this LTT terrorism.

30 days is a 'long' stay? Why? Because rule says that? How about using some common sense?

This guy comes clean on state's responsibility saying that:
1) It'll take long time do that (uniform structure of taxation)
2) No one is doing that ( but does not answer why they should not do that and neither does he say anything what should be done in the interim)
3) They are doing what is legal

There is every reason to believe that he has got his vested interests he is not just being the devil's advocate but the devil himself. A neutral guy would call a spade a spade.

Some other guys are suggesting that people should not mind coughing up some money if they come to KA to stay for more than 30 days. I suggest them a better idea. Why not issue them work permit or visa and charge a hefty sum for that. In that case, RTO can even charge import duty on cars which is typically 100-200% of the car's value. So KA will become a very rich state.
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Old 20th April 2015, 18:02   #1333
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Questioning one of the very basic facts - Why should a Govt. employee should be exempt from paying LTT in case of a transfer and why a private sector employee should be forced to pay it? This question is not confined for KA but for entire India. Govt is already discriminating between the Govt. employees and Private employees with its ridiculous mechanism of Dearness Allowance, and on top of this, why such an exemption should be needed? I can understand and exclude the defense sector but why regular sectors like banking industry and other PSU units should have this luxury?

Last edited by saket77 : 20th April 2015 at 18:03.
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Old 20th April 2015, 18:10   #1334
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Questioning one of the very basic facts - Why should a Govt. employee should be exempt from paying LTT in case of a transfer and why a private sector employee should be forced to pay it? This question is not confined for KA but for entire India. Govt is already discriminating between the Govt. employees and Private employees with its ridiculous mechanism of Dearness Allowance, and on top of this, why such an exemption should be needed? I can understand and exclude the defense sector but why regular sectors like banking industry and other PSU units should have this luxury?
Want me to state the obvious, good sir?

The law is the law and you can either put up with it, or spend years in court litigating against the discrimination and unfair practices of the lawmakers/enforcers, fighting to be treated fairly as a citizen in your own country. The government has no obligation to be fair or even law-abiding, that's your burden as a citizen.

Amusing how it all works like a well-oiled machine when money's to be made, but a broken system with 'long-standing problems that'll take time to fix' when it comes to paying the citizen back, monetarily or otherwise.

That's the only answer you're going to get on this thread, at least.
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Old 20th April 2015, 21:11   #1335
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
I call what it is. Talking about invitations by CM/Mayor is xenophobic.


sum for that. In that case, RTO can even charge import duty on cars which is typically 100-200% of the car's value. So KA will become a very rich state.
I think its un-necessary to think on those terms. Its not discrimination against people. The only reason I am responding is that I feel sad where for everything we start talking about such things.

We are talking about cars and life time tax. Why mix it up. Its simple case of people not paying tax. You can spin around this whatever way you want. But its simply that. 30 day is bad rule. Everyone agrees to that. If everyone needs the same set of rule, why have state govt, there could be presidential rule and have administration through Governor.

There is a saying where if one gets under the carpet, the other will get under rangoli. Its just that.

I hope this thread is locked up once again.

Last edited by srishiva : 20th April 2015 at 21:14.
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