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Old 20th April 2015, 22:50   #1336
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I think its un-necessary to think on those terms. Its not discrimination against people. The only reason I am responding is that I feel sad where for everything we start talking about such things.

We are talking about cars and life time tax. Why mix it up. Its simple case of people not paying tax...
Much appreciated.

Why I call his views Xenophobic - So, there is a rule which is, in effect, clearly discriminating out of state migrants. Despite that, people do move. I'll have to, if I am asked to. Clearly, CM of KA or Mayor of Bangalore haven't invited me. Does a middle of the road guy really has an option here?

So, how does xenophobics defend this? They'll say, "Stay in your home state, we/our CM/Mayor did not invite you". Cough up whatever this state asks for. Our government isn't doing charity (to other state migrants).

This kind of view is clearly xenophobic. It is nascent. But it is. Because it clearly demonstrates the lack of empathy to migrants plight. They don't even agree that migrants have a plight here.

I disagree that it is a simple case of people not paying tax. People paid their tax when they purchased their vehicle. It is a complex case of repaying of taxes. There is no simple answer to this. Roads are state matters and rightly so but when there is no fair chance of recovery of tax, these tactics are debateable.

Issue that some people purchase from neighboring states: I don't think KA is specifically targeting these people. They are just either collecting revenue or confiscating out of state vehicles. There is an elaborate mechanism to do this state level extortion. They have employed RTO, police, detectives. They are using interceptors (meant for tracking overspeeding vehicles) to identify other state vehicles and confiscate those.

Something isn't right with the whole thing.

The import duty thing is just sarcasm. Does someone should pay some chanda/donation to a state when he moves there? Very debateable.
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Old 20th April 2015, 23:05   #1337
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
Something isn't right with the whole thing.
I will add one more point to this.

If the law in KA is such that I am a law-abiding citizen while on the TN-side of the border, but become a law-breaker if I cross into Karnataka (and stay here for a few weeks, if you want to be pedantic) and my property can be confiscated and I can be penalized to the tune of several thousands (in cases, going into lakhs), then clearly such a law has no place in India - which aims to provide "equal protection of the laws within the territory of India".
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Old 21st April 2015, 08:28   #1338
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
Much appreciated.

Why I call his views Xenophobic - So, there is a rule which is, in effect, clearly discriminating out of state migrants. Despite that, people do move. I'll have to, if I am asked to. Clearly, CM of KA or Mayor of Bangalore haven't invited me. Does a middle of the road guy really has an option here?

So, how does xenophobics defend this? They'll say, "Stay in your home state, we/our CM/Mayor did not invite you". Cough up whatever this state asks for. Our government isn't doing charity (to other state migrants).

This kind of view is clearly xenophobic. It is nascent. But it is. Because it clearly demonstrates the lack of empathy to migrants plight. They don't even agree that migrants have a plight here.

I disagree that it is a simple case of people not paying tax. People paid their tax when they purchased their vehicle. It is a complex case of repaying of taxes. There is no simple answer to this. Roads are state matters and rightly so but when there is no fair chance of recovery of tax, these tactics are debateable.

Issue that some people purchase from neighboring states: I don't think KA is specifically targeting these people. They are just either collecting revenue or confiscating out of state vehicles. There is an elaborate mechanism to do this state level extortion. They have employed RTO, police, detectives. They are using interceptors (meant for tracking overspeeding vehicles) to identify other state vehicles and confiscate those.

Something isn't right with the whole thing.

The import duty thing is just sarcasm. Does someone should pay some chanda/donation to a state when he moves there? Very debateable.
I think there is a view that the govt wants to collect more revenue. Isn't being unwelcoming of people impact that? So whatever emotional argument you might be making, it doesnt stand with the intention of the govt. You should be living in utopia (Gurgaon !) to make such an argument against the govt or people of this state.
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Old 21st April 2015, 09:18   #1339
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

It's a sad thing that driving between countries is easier than between states. I understand that India is about to sign a MOU with Afghanistan soon to allow free travel. You can drive around the whole EU and also in North America.
One secret that should be kept away from the KRTO is the cost of bicycles. If they realise that a bicycle costs between 4k to a few lakhs, they'd immediately make cyclists pay LTT. Poor buggers are expecting a green exemption.
And what about pedestrians, don't they use the road too? Shouldn't there be a footman tax. Atleast to pay for the TenderSURE fiasco. The Middle Ages had some great taxes such as these. Also the foot path vendors who encroach half the road. Some areas of city market, the whole road is occupied by them.
Harassment should be universal.
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Old 21st April 2015, 09:39   #1340
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

While we will keep debating what is wrong, what is right, funds are needed. For expenditures like these -

Quote:
The salaries of the Chief Minister and his ministers go up to Rs 50,000 from Rs 30,000, while legislators get Rs 25,000 instead of Rs 20,000. The Legislature on Monday passed the Karnataka Ministers’ Salaries and Allowances (Amendment) Bill and a similar Bill to fatten the pay packets of legislators.

The house rent allowance for the Chief Minister and his ministers has been increased to Rs 80,000 from Rs 40,000.

In addition, they are also eligible for a Rs 20,000 allowance to maintain the house and the garden. That is a 100 per cent increase from the earlier Rs 10,000.

The monthly quota of petrol for a minister’s car is 1,000 litres, up from 750. The constituency allowance for MLAs has gone up from Rs 15,000 to Rs 40,000, and the constituency travel allowance jumps from Rs 25,000 to `40,000.

The leaders are also entitled to annual railway travel allowance of up to Rs 2 lakh, which remains the same. But their daily allowance to attend a meeting or legislature session has been doubled from Rs 1,000 to Rs 2,000. The average monthly pay of a legislator, excluding session allowance and allowance for travel outside the state, goes up to Rs 1.40 lakh, an increase of Rs 50,000 from the earlier Rs 90,000.

The legislators have also presented themselves a hike in their pension: the minimum pension is now Rs 40,000, up from Rs 25,000, and those who have served for more than five years get an extra Rs 1,000 for every additional year in the Assembly. The condition that an MLA must serve for five years to qualify for pension has been removed.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/stat...cle2738904.ece
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Old 21st April 2015, 09:49   #1341
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
Why I call his views Xenophobic - So, there is a rule which is, in effect, clearly discriminating out of state migrants.

So, how does xenophobics defend this? They'll say, "Stay in your home state, we/our CM/Mayor did not invite you". Cough up whatever this state asks for. Our government isn't doing charity (to other state migrants).

This kind of view is clearly xenophobic. It is nascent. But it is. Because it clearly demonstrates the lack of empathy to migrants plight. They don't even agree that migrants have a plight here.
You are so off the territory, I don't even know where to start. First of all, terms like xenophobia refers to a very serious social problem, please don't dilute the term like this. When people are attacked for looking different or speaking different language, then you can scream xenophobia. But this stupid law affects even a local owning out-of-state vehicle. I have been in that situation, had to pay LTT after buying an ancient TN Jeep.

1) KA Govt has made a greedy law in their relentless pursuit of tax. Why greedy, just compare the rates to other states. Why should we KA people pay more road tax than other states? Because we have a greedy government. All KA people are equally subjugated by this incredibly greedy law. When out-of-state people come here, you are temporarily exposed to the same subjugation and are feeling the same pain we are permanently living with.

2) The enforcement of this law is very strong in Bangalore, but not so in rest of the state. I drive across the state twice each month, and I see no one stopping out-of-state cars. In the coast it is very common to see temporary/permanent residents bringing and using MH cars and nobody bothers to stop them any time. So the greedy enforcement is happening in the same city where the law was made. Rich hunting grounds I suppose.

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
If the law in KA is such that I am a law-abiding citizen while on the TN-side of the border, but become a law-breaker if I cross into Karnataka (and stay here for a few weeks, if you want to be pedantic) and my property can be confiscated and I can be penalized to the tune of several thousands (in cases, going into lakhs), then clearly such a law has no place in India - which aims to provide "equal protection of the laws within the territory of India".
Consider a car travelling from a neighbouring state into Maharashtra. The very law-abiding passengers of the car are enjoying a hearty meal of beef fry. As they enter MH, they become lawbreakers and thrown away into prison for 5 years. Such things can happen in India, or even in a country like USA. As a martial artist I had lots of nunchakus when I lived in New Jersey (still have them). However, if I accidentally had a nunchaku somewhere in my car while visiting my uncle in nearby Staten Island (NY), I could be thrown in prison in a heartbeat. In fact, I may have carried it in my luggage sometimes while going to JFK to take a flight to India. Scary thought.

There is an old English saying, Law is an Ass, which means it is obstinate as a donkey. Until the law is in the books, the police can choose to enforce it.

Therefore, we should try to eliminate such laws by fighting it in the court, like BHPian Silverwood is doing. On the other hand, this endless bickering and name calling gets us no closer to any solution or agreement. Stop blaming police/RTO, they are just enforcing the law. They have no choice if they have been asked to enforce it strictly.

Last edited by Samurai : 21st April 2015 at 10:00. Reason: typo
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Old 21st April 2015, 09:57   #1342
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
In that case, RTO can even charge import duty on cars which is typically 100-200% of the car's value. So KA will become a very rich state.
this is marvellous. Since if car imported is running in KA, then import duty should also be levied/pocketed by KA. This will become a trend setter in garnering more tax revenue across states in India.
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Old 21st April 2015, 11:01   #1343
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Consider a car travelling from a neighbouring state into Maharashtra. The very law-abiding passengers of the car are enjoying a hearty meal of beef fry. As they enter MH, they become lawbreakers and thrown away into prison for 5 years.
That can't be an argument; that MH is criminalizing something which is legal elsewhere, so why can't KA? At least MH has the justification that their law is constitutionally sound.
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Old 21st April 2015, 11:23   #1344
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
That can't be an argument; that MH is criminalizing something which is legal elsewhere, so why can't KA? At least MH has the justification that their law is constitutionally sound.
It is not an argument at all, let alone justification. I am just reminding you that laws can change when crossing state borders. And also that laws can be enforced when they are in the books. Section 66 of IT Act was unconstitutional too, but remained in force for 15 years, and police could use it.

We have lots of constitutionally sound unjust laws subjugating free speech, sexual orientation, blasphemy, drug use, etc., which would be considered draconian in societies that are more free than ours. However, until the laws are changed, they can and will be enforced.

Last edited by Samurai : 21st April 2015 at 11:25.
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Old 21st April 2015, 11:59   #1345
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
So whatever emotional argument you might be making, it doesnt stand with the intention of the govt. You should be living in utopia (Gurgaon !) to make such an argument against the govt or people of this state.
Objecting to re-taxing citizens without a fair chance of recovery of that tax is NOT an emotional argument.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You are so off the territory, I don't even know where to start. First of all, terms like xenophobia refers to a very serious social problem, please don't dilute the term like this.
I don't know if you are relating this to African tribes. I am not even saying that law or the police are xenophobic. I am talking about some views presented on this forum. And there is NO dilution. I mean exactly xenophobia, what the dictionary says. I don't know if there is a specific term for such nascent/passive/latent xenophobia. These views are partial, dismissive of the plight of the migrants. Migrants are being called them un-invited (guests) and they see nothing wrong in government's way of implementation of the 'fatwa'. 30 days is long enough stay for pay 15 years of tax, that too without a fair chance of recovery of the same tax IS A FATWA. It's so arbitrary in nature that it can't be called a law.

Disclaimer: I have stayed in KA for more than an year. Without a doubt, in general, people of KA have been the nicest to migrants in my experience.

Last edited by atnyia : 21st April 2015 at 12:11.
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Old 21st April 2015, 12:10   #1346
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
Objecting to re-taxing citizens without a fair chance of recovery of that tax is NOT an emotional argument.



I don't know if you are relating this to African tribes. There is NO dilution. I mean exactly xenophobia, what the dictionary says. I don't know if there is a specific term for such nascent/passive/latent xenophobia. These views are partial, dismissive of the plight of the migrants. Migrants are being called them un-invited (guests) and they see nothing wrong in government's way of implementation of the 'fatwa'. 30 days is long enough stay for pay 15 years of tax, that too without a fair chance of recovery of the same tax IS A FATWA. It's so arbitrary in nature that it can't be called a law.

Disclaimer: I have stayed in KA for more than an year. Without a doubt, in general, people of KA have been the nicest to migrants in my experience.
I think when we take the argument to extreme ends, we see all sorts of explanations and counter arguments
Chill friend.
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Old 21st April 2015, 12:11   #1347
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia View Post
These views are partial, dismissive of the plight of the migrants. Migrants are being called them un-invited (guests) and they see nothing wrong in government's way of implementation of the 'fatwa'. 30 days is long enough stay for pay 15 years of tax, that too without a fair chance of recovery of the same tax IS A FATWA.
Are you saying this LTT is applicable only to migrants? I have never kept a single car for 15 years. I have bought many vehicles in KA for which I was forced to pay LTT. I sold my Baleno after 2 years. Why did I, who can speak 3 native languages of KA end up paying 15 years of LTT on a car I used for 2 years? Why did I become target of this so called Xenophobia?
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Old 21st April 2015, 12:12   #1348
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
There was a drive conducted in my part of town. There as a huge parking lot of an IT company. Four squads were there - two each on both sides of the road focusing on vehicles coming from one direction. As soon as a non-KA vehicle came out of the parking lot, the squad asked it to pull to the side.
...
The way you framed your sentence made me feel that some one actually threatened you to take up a job in Bengaluru. That was not the case, am I right? Pretty much every one who came to Bengaluru came out of their own free will, seeking a better life out here.
...
. Any ways, I have shared my thoughts on a similar scheme a few pages before this one.
The parking sticker means nothing, I can get one without any trouble, , in fact a few people in Kerala drive around with Bangalore parking stickers,its linked to the employee number/apartment number and validity is there to collect parking fees. The RTO has no clue, and every vehicle passing by has to show documents and prove that they don't owe taxes, plenty of people have faced that, please enlighten us on why we have to prove innocence in this particular case, that too to RTO crooks who don't lift a pen without a few hundreds changing hands. " Guilty Complex" is that a punishable offence? I've said this before, the government can raid the RTO to raise money, it costs 2000/- in bribes to remove hypothecation, other services "cost" more, see the convenience here, no squads, no needs for collecting evidence as the government already knows where they live and how much they are paid(earnings is a different issue, actually the thing of interest)

You are basically pissed off at techies who make more than you, if you are asking why people immigrate without working on their finances, here is why, companies recruit them, i.e. asked them to move here, I hope that answers it. Someone paying 10 month's rent in advance may not have enough money to pay up taxes that he has paid already. No one asked me to move here, even more importantly, the local government didn't create anything to help immigrants succeed here, its always been central government investment or private enterprise. The lack of interference was what made the city great, not useless pencil pushers harassing regular people. I have already paid 10 month's advance and LTT on the car I own, so I don't have a problem, but someone like you who gets a kick from harassment of people you are jealous about won't understand a concept of fairness.
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Old 21st April 2015, 12:58   #1349
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by atnyia
So is talking about state charity. Despite of the fact that the state is actually supposed to be benevolent benefactor and it's primary job is welfare of citizens. Not extortion.
The state can be a benevolent benefactor, but at not the expense of foregoing tax revenues . It can become a benevolent benefactor only if it has revenues to play that role. There were provisions to pay LTT all this while, the RTO did not have to use strong arm tactics. But every body did not use it properly. So now LA RTO have to act tough.

Quote:
There is every reason to believe that he has got his vested interests he is not just being the devil's advocate but the devil himself. A neutral guy would call a spade a spade.
Yes sir, I am the RTO chief out here. Why get riled up on my job, or my interests. If I need to support tax dodgers to prove that I am neutral, I don't think I should do that.

Quote:
A government which blows most of it's money due to corruption should target the easiest prey. The migrant worker. He isn't anyone's vote bank. That's why the state government is so brazen with this LTT terrorism.
Why is he not any one's vote bank? Because he never bothered to go and vote. Whom do we blame for that? May be note in a large scale, I have seen small communities getting their demands met (for example Kaveri water, better electricity supply) etc, by deciding to vote. Even the local corporator clearly said that unless he finds a benefit (by more votes), he would utilise funds in areas where he knows he would be benefited. I am sorry to say this, the IT groups in Bengaluru seems to be working and living in total isolation, which may be give them more comfort. But they are also losing out on many of the leverages which the traditional voters have. Today the IT crowd expects First class facilities when they just make demands. Where as they don't contribute much for a vibrant democracy. So it is always - "Dont ask me any contribution, but give xyz facilities seen in America, abc facilities seen in UK, and zero taxes like they have in the middle east", and not "Let us work together to make a world class city out here". There was a campaign before the last LS elections to enroll many more voters. I don't know how many enrolled (which also mandates that their rights to vote in their mother state gets cancelled).

Quote:
So, there is a rule which is, in effect, clearly discriminating out of state migrants.
What discrimination? I am yet to get it. You can jolly well move in without a vehicle. But if a vehicle is brought in here, all state level taxes applicable on that would be levied. What is the big deal? What you are stating that is KA government should become such a spineless one, that migrants can just do what ever they want in KA state.

Quote:
Objecting to re-taxing citizens without a fair chance of recovery of that tax is NOT an emotional argument.
There is a fair chance and process established to get the tax from the previous state in which LTT was paid. How ever it is left to the onus of the vehicle owner. And Karnataka is also willing to refund taxes for vehicles registered out there. Just because state A is sloppy on tax refunds, we cannot deny the right of state B to collect its tax dues. We can argue till cows come home, but it is not going to change the situation on the ground.

Quote:
They are using interceptors (meant for tracking overspeeding vehicles) to identify other state vehicles and confiscate those.
Interceptor is a vehicle allocated to Traffic Police. So they can use it for any purpose. It need to be just for catching speed violators .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Ice
While we will keep debating what is wrong, what is right, funds are needed. For expenditures like these
True politicians are in unison, when it comes to bettering their perks. But I would wait for people to show me one state in India, which does not levy a motor vehicle tax, if it levies the roads are extremely well managed and three politicians in that place are all honest, and generally work for the lowest salary/perks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by binand
At least MH has the justification that their law is constitutionally sound.
On what grounds do you feel that the Motor Vehicle Taxation Amendment is not constitutionally sound? At the moment with the Governor's ascent is given it is the law. We will have to wait for all appeals to be cleared to get the final consensus from the judiciary. Even on the "beef ban" in MH, President has given his ascent, but again appeals are being heard. But at the moment it is the law. Just because we have our own concerns, a law does not become constitutionally unsound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77
Questioning one of the very basic facts - Why should a Govt. employee should be exempt from paying LTT in case of a transfer and why a private sector employee should be forced to pay it? This question is not confined for KA but for entire India.
A central government employee as part of his job is eligible for transfer to any part of India. So it is also natural that as the employer it also gives a few benefits for its staff to make transfers a simpler process. Either it could reimburse the LTT paid, or else it could work with the states and get a waiver. Being a government (which has far reaching powers), they used the second option. Private companies can also think in these lines. They can reimburse the LTT when an employee gets transferred. But they are not the least bit bothered. Even IT companies which are supposed to have many an employee friendly policy is silent on LTT reimbursement. Where as a Central Govt. employee has mandatory transfers, same is not applicable to a private company employee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
" Guilty Complex" is that a punishable offence?
Did I say so? But "guilty complex" makes the process of confessing for a crime a much simpler process. Makes preparing the charges a bit more easy. If these people all had very strong convictions that they did no wrong, they could have fought back. How many tried? Yeah, it would be tough for a person coming out of a 60 lakh worth apartment to lie through their teeth and just came in two weeks back .

Quote:
I've said this before, the government can raid the RTO to raise money, it costs 2000/- in bribes to remove hypothecation]
In Kerala I have seen drunkards advising Traffic police men, that should not catch them but focus on catching over-speeders. Over-speeders try advicing the RTO and Police to first check politicians and ensure they don't do any crime. These advices ultimately have no meaning. RTO and Police work based on their mandates. Ultimately the drunk driver and the over-speeder finds their advise ignored and a summons/vehicle check report handed over and fines collected.

Quote:
companies recruit them, i.e. asked them to move here, I hope that answers it.
Then either the company can pay up the LTT, or the employee can pay the LTT. Or else the employee can say he would not budge from his current place. The state government has no role to play here.

Quote:
No one asked me to move here, even more importantly, the local government didn't create anything to help immigrants succeed here, its always been central government investment or private enterprise.
That is how you view things. But without the due approvals and tax breaks no IT company would set up shop here. Take for example KL which did nothing to support IT. They also have no compulsions to collect LTT, and other state specific taxes. A scheme which is implemented in KA would not work in KL, because the number of tax-dodgers would be less. A few Malayalis (quite small in number) using their KA vehicles may get caught in such raids. Don't allow your pet peeves against government servants (especially RTO) stop you seeing the rights of the state and central governments.
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Old 21st April 2015, 13:32   #1350
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
A central government employee as part of his job is eligible for transfer to any part of India.
So is a private company employee. Don't see any difference here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
So it is also natural that as the employer it also gives a few benefits for its staff to make transfers a simpler process. Either it could reimburse the LTT paid, or else it could work with the states and get a waiver. Being a government (which has far reaching powers), they used the second option. Private companies can also think in these lines. They can reimburse the LTT when an employee gets transferred. But they are not the least bit bothered. Even IT companies which are supposed to have many an employee friendly policy is silent on LTT reimbursement.
I just found an interesting piece of news just now (dtd. 06/01/2012):

"BANGALORE: Thousands of central government employees, including armed forces personnel, residing in Karnataka and owning motor vehicles will now have to pay lifetime tax (LTT) for their vehicles.
The employees had been granted exemption from paying LTT when buying new vehicles in the state or bringing them from other states on the ground that they could be transferred out of Karnataka anytime. These motorists had to pay an annual tax to RTO.
However, a new rule that took effect on January 1 has withdrawn this exemption partially. While those central government employees bringing in their vehicles from other states need to pay only annual tax as earlier, those already in Karnataka will have to pay LTT for vehicles they have already purchased here or going to buy in future."


Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/11382721.cms

Is this implemented in KA? I hope people from KA would let us know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Where as a Central Govt. employee has mandatory transfers, same is not applicable to a private company employee.
Contradict that one. Central govt. employees do not have mandatory transfers. And yes, many times CG employees are transferred with a promotion. If the employee has place constraints, they may put down the promotion and stay at the current place.

In fact, in case of private companies, transfers are more rigid. It is mostly like 'take it or leave (the job)' kind of policy.

The only solution to this problem, IMO:

1. Have a centralized data base of vehicle records and taxes. No reason why it cannot be done when all records are mostly digitized already with the RTOs across the country.

2. Implement a uniform tax rate throughout the country.

3. Develop a revenue sharing mechanism which means that if I paid my road tax at JH initially and migrated to KA, the two RTOs can coordinate the revenues sharing process within themselves without further harassing the vehicle owner.

All that circus of claiming refund from the RTO should be ended for good. If I don't pay RTO, it is a crime. If RTO does not pay me, that is okay? So, the earlier the above is done, the better for our own country and people.

Regards,
Saket

Last edited by saket77 : 21st April 2015 at 13:33.
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