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Old 22nd April 2015, 12:19   #1366
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I sold my Baleno after 2 years. Why did I, who can speak 3 native languages of KA end up paying 15 years of LTT on a car I used for 2 years?
The question is, if your Baleno had tax paid only till end of the year of sale, would you have commanded the same price that you did when you sold it with full 15 years LTT paid? I think your resale value was that much higher because of the fact that the buyer didn't have to worry about paying any tax for the subsequent 13 years.

If the KA RTO had taken an approach, your tax due is Rs. X, you have paid Rs. Y in the state of purchase, so now you need to pay up Rs. (X-Y) then I wouldn't have had this much problem with this rule (not considering the 1-month clause for the moment).

Lastly, a related point: The KA MV Taxation Act section 7(1) says:

Quote:

Where a tax on any motor vehicle has been paid for any period and it is proved to the satisfaction of the prescribed authority that the vehicle has not been used during the whole of that period, or a continuous part thereof, not being less than one calendar month, a refund shall be made of such portion of the tax and subject to such conditions as may be prescribed.
It would be a good campaign to run - all those who have paid tax in Karnataka and have not used the vehicle for more than 1 month should apply for a refund. I can't find a copy of the Rules for the KA MV Taxation Act online, though (to understand the process and conditions for applying for this refund).
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Old 22nd April 2015, 13:35   #1367
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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The question is, if your Baleno had tax paid only till end of the year of sale, would you have commanded the same price that you did when you sold it with full 15 years LTT paid? I think your resale value was that much higher because of the fact that the buyer didn't have to worry about paying any tax for the subsequent 13 years.
The resale value depends on many things, not just the LTT. Even if it did depend only on LTT, it is still doesn't make sense. With that logic one can even justify 100% tax or 100 year LTT, saying you will get it back during resale. Next they can extend that logic to property tax, force you pay lifetime tax to your new home, saying your resale value will be high.

The concept of LTT is truly horrible because they are borrowing from future tax revenues to fund current expenses. In finance there is a concept of funding long term investments with long term loans and short term investments with short term loans. Using that concept, LTT should be used only on building long term infrastructure, but we know governments use it like petty cash. And now they can't stop it because it is not a reversible process. They have already taken and used up most of the road tax of the future.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 19:33   #1368
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

@Samurai: likewise. If you pay LTT in all 4 southern states and have registrations in all 4 of them, does that make your car have a better resale value. The buyer is not going to reimburse your excess tax paid. That's for the govt. to do, which basically means that you can forget about it.
The only rational way would be if KRTO only collected the excess amount. If you've paid ₹x in state A, and LTT in state B is ₹y, you should be required to pay only ₹( y-x).
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Old 22nd April 2015, 20:01   #1369
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
...
The concept of LTT is truly horrible because they are borrowing from future tax revenues to fund current expenses. In finance there is a concept of funding long term investments with long term loans and short term investments with short term loans. Using that concept, LTT should be used only on building long term infrastructure, but we know governments use it like petty cash. And now they can't stop it because it is not a reversible process. They have already taken and used up most of the road tax of the future.
Hypothetical scenario.

Let us say, new car sales in Karnataka come to a grinding halt. The only cars being newly registered are those that replace scrapped cars. No inward migration of cars/bikes either.
LTT revenue comes down by 95%. Karnataka government will see a super-massive revenue shortfall.

Thing is, if road tax being collected for the purposes of road maintenance & upgrade, all existing vehicles will continue to ply on the roads and wear out the roads - and there is no road tax revenue to maintain the roads!

Good enough reason to scrap LTT, and either collect road tax annually or tax fuel? I am beginning to think that this whole LTT thing is a ponzi scheme.

Last edited by KiloAlpha : 22nd April 2015 at 20:03.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 21:02   #1370
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Good enough reason to scrap LTT, and either collect road tax annually or tax fuel? I am beginning to think that this whole LTT thing is a ponzi scheme.
Yep, but annual tax will bring problems both to the transport department and (hence) us as the question of whether or not a KA registered car has paid this year's tax will arise. The state already taxes the fuel, right? It's just that they can never have enough of our money.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 00:18   #1371
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
It started like that, and then was expanded to the rule itself. So the rule became Xenophobic.

Then it became "they" instead of one person. That is when I stepped in.


It is a slippery slope once you start on this path. There is no need to politicize this purely legal matter, the forum rules don't allow it anyway.
With due respect to mods, I did not go to that slippery slope while I admit my language wasn't exactly legal (covering all aspects). The clarification was provided that I did not call on the state/law if there was a doubt on that.

It is a sensitive topic and easy to misread. I do apologize for my aggressive stand though and it's really a tough job for mods to determine on where to draw the line. I understand that the intention is to foster good environment on the forum. I truly am sorry for that.

I am not sure whether I am breaking forum rules with this post. Even if I am, please consider this my ignorance.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 02:47   #1372
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My problem is with the way the tax drive is conducted, but as long as we are not personally affected, we shouldn't complain right?

What does literacy have to do with finding the RTO? If you are hell bent on getting something from the RTO without paying a bribe, you are out of luck, that is what I was saying. I am glad you registered your car yourself, the dealer's hafta smoothened things for you, not your pucca documents, you have the option of registering ownership in a non existent address if you pay 500 more, so much for tracing ownership and fighting crime.

I don't know about your offer, but companies that need skilled manpower need to find them from anywhere, unlike the RTO pencil pushers, these people do useful work and pay out taxes, they aren't paid out of taxes. What kind of person gives weightage to road tax when evaluating a job opportunity?

I bought my car here, so naturally its registered here with LTT paid, the only problem is taking it across state lines when the river conflicts go out of control. The 10 month rent thing is slowly fading away, as the boom fades out and pay hikes become rare, the people who benefitted from it through state largesse (subsidized housing plots which they converted to multi storey rental accomodation) are learning to temper

Hadn't seen this post when replying earlier.
Literacy has got to do with reading and filling up forms yourself, Knowing and understanding the paperwork required. I just took registering a car as an example. I don't care whose hafta smoothened my registration process, but I am sure that nobody's hafta smoothened my:
O.T
1. learning and driving license at 16 for motorcycle without gear under 50CC
2. The same licenses for motor cycle with gear at 18
3. The same licenses for light motor vehicle
4. Getting hypothecation removed on a car and a bike
5. Getting a bike transferred to a buyer and getting the bullet transferred to my name

So it's definitely not luck.
All this happened because I was adamant about not paying bribe. The officials at the RTO have never harassed or even made me run around desks. Over and above literacy it is people who don't want to spend time and want to get things done easier who usually (not generalizing) go through agents and that's when bribe comes into picture.

I wouldn't even think about getting a vehicle registered in a non existent address because:
1. I don't have the intention to use it for illegal purposes or crime
2. I usually don't break traffic rules and need not be worried about the notices reaching home or not. I promptly have paid the fines for 2 overspending tickets that reached home through post

Even if one were able to get registered in a non existed address, one or the other day, either when stopped for checking or when selling the vehicle, all traffic violation fines would be collected. Only if a person uses it throughout its lifetime and scraps it can he escape it. Oh wait, I guess there's a procedure for officially scrapping the car too.

Finding from anywhere and boom fading out? Don't you think these are contradictory? Not to nitpick, but, a company needs skilled manpower has to find them from anywhere, agree, but no one is obligated to accept an offer.

Rightly said, nobody would weigh LTT against a job opportunity. Which means, he/she is ready to part with that much money.

P.S: in some companies (that hire skilled labor) evading tax is considered a fraud and results in termination of employment and my offer exactly says that!!
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Old 23rd April 2015, 06:52   #1373
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Not to add fuel to the fire, but just thinking aloud about this (imaginary, but possible) situation:

(1) Today: Non-KA diesel car owner with his 10 year old car, enters KA (Bangalore where his heftily-paid IT job is) and as a law abiding citizen of KA state(!), pays LTT for the next 15 years. Having done the wordly sin of buying an expensive car of his desire 10 years ago, he happily and voluntarily pays up a pretty big, but fair(!) sum as LTT. Because laws are laws, and he came to KA without valid invitation letter / visa / entry permit.

(2) Tomorrow: NGT, in it's continuously infinite wisdom, bans all diesel vehicles over the age of 10 years in metro cities (Bangalore being one of them) since private diesel vehicles cause almost all the pollution in India. A month after this ban, pollution-related diseases will be a thing of the past and physicians will start looking for alternate careers. Because trucks, buses and older 2 stroke auto-rickshaws are immaculately maintained with only premium fuel from Shell being used, they need not be banned even after successfully running a million km in 10 years. Fitness tests are unnecessary for such well-cared for pieces of machinery.

(3) Day after tomorrow: Our law-abiding car-owner starts commuting by Bangalore's wonderful metro train service spread across the length and breadth of the city.

Foot-note: KA RTO builds 3 more XXL sized speed (!) breakers with the LTT collected from our ex-car owner, thereby ensuring efficient utilization of funds. But, since only around 40% of the LTT actually reached the coffers, they could not buy the can of white paint to mark the speed markers. Since the funds were already utilized within a day of payment, KA RTO is unable to refund the car owner for NOT using the car on Bangalore roads for the next 15 years.

I lived in Bangalore for 2 years and dealt with highly-corrupt Koramangala RTO to register my HR26 car, even when I had come fully prepared with all necessary documents. So I know exactly what I am talking about. And for reasons of my own, will never go back to live in Bangalore ever again.

Last edited by benbsb29 : 24th April 2015 at 05:26. Reason: Removed flamebait part from post.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 07:05   #1374
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

hello, just came across this news in today's kannadaprabha
http://epaper.kannadaprabha.in/PUBLI...9.shtml?Mode=1

transport commissioner rame gowda says, the karnataka high court has set aside the plea by a few motor car owners about the road tax. he says, out of state vehicles which are in KA beyond 30 days, have to pay life time tax else vehicle will be impounded and tax collected with penalty.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 07:06   #1375
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Viju View Post
Foot-note: KA RTO builds 3 more XXL sized speed (!) breakers with the LTT collected from our ex-car owner, thereby ensuring efficient utilization of funds. But, since only around 40% of the LTT actually reached the coffers, they could not buy the can of white paint to mark the speed markers.
I must say it's a different feeling of joy when you drive over the new speedbreaker right into a pothole, both of which are from the LTT you paid to drive/dive/ride/spill on the roads.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 09:11   #1376
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Viju View Post
(1) Today: Non-KA diesel car owner with his 10 year old car, enters KA (Bangalore where his heftily-paid IT job is) and as a law abiding citizen of KA state(!), pays LTT for the next 15 years.
It is not for the next 15 years, it is for lifetime. You don't have to pay LTT again after 15 years. The tax calculation is based on 15 years, but it is only one time, hence the name lifetime tax.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 09:21   #1377
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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It is not for the next 15 years, it is for lifetime. You don't have to pay LTT again after 15 years. The tax calculation is based on 15 years, but it is only one time, hence the name lifetime tax.
Thank you for pointing that out! Wasn't aware.

I was always under the impression that road tax has to be paid again (yearly or bi-yearly) when the registration certificate of the vehicle is due for renewal at the end of fifteen years from the date of original purchase.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 09:44   #1378
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by Viju View Post
Not to add fuel to the fire, but just thinking aloud about this (imaginary, but possible) situation:

(1) Today: Non-KA diesel car owner with his 10 year old car, enters KA (Bangalore where his heftily-paid IT job is) and as a law abiding citizen of KA state(!), pays LTT for the next 15 years. Having done the wordly sin of buying an expensive car of his desire 10 years ago, he happily and voluntarily pays up a pretty big, but fair(!) sum as LTT. Because laws are laws, and he came to KA without valid invitation letter / visa / entry permit.

(2) Tomorrow: NGT, in it's continuously infinite wisdom, bans all diesel vehicles over the age of 10 years in metro cities (Bangalore being one of them) since private diesel vehicles cause almost all the pollution in India. A month after this ban, pollution-related diseases will be a thing of the past and physicians will start looking for alternate careers. Because trucks, buses and older 2 stroke auto-rickshaws are immaculately maintained with only premium fuel from Shell being used, they need not be banned even after successfully running a million km in 10 years. Fitness tests are unnecessary for such well-cared for pieces of machinery.
Correction 1: You will have to pay for only 5 years tax, which is the estimated "life time" of your vehicle. However with KA's tax computations, 5 years here may exceed the LTT you paid in your home state or maybe even the current market value of your vehicle. If you avail a loan for paying the LTT, then the refund from your home state for the remaining five years may constitute one EMI payment.

Correction 2: You are still free to roam all over the majestic beauty of KA for another five years, just Bangalore will be forbidden for you. But then you were always free to do that, only Bangalore cops/RTO hunt foreign number plates.

PS: I think the life extensions are blocks of 5 years each in KA after the original registration expires.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 10:04   #1379
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Both the used Jeeps I bought crossed their 15th years when I owned them. I didn't have to pay LTT again, just fitness certification was needed. Which repeats every 5 years I think, I need to look up.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 10:06   #1380
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by nutmello View Post
hello, just came across this news in today's kannadaprabha
http://epaper.kannadaprabha.in/PUBLI...9.shtml?Mode=1

transport commissioner rame gowda says, the karnataka high court has set aside the plea by a few motor car owners about the road tax. he says, out of state vehicles which are in KA beyond 30 days, have to pay life time tax else vehicle will be impounded and tax collected with penalty.

Ok there is an act. And there must be rules for implementing the act. And all rules, including crimnal law, have due process set down with powers defined at various levels of the enforcing agency.

Could anybody point me to a online copy of both the relevant act and rules.?
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