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Old 5th June 2015, 11:30   #1456
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I guess binand brought this point here. But even in this case, the RTO would seize all your original documentation - to ensure that the vehicle is not removed/sold etc.
Yes - that is as per rule - I know this is not practical for a private vehicle, but was just thinking aloud. If there is indeed a way to do this, we can claim tax exemption for the onsite assignments where usually the car will be just parked in the garage.

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I think what theexperthand wanted to check is that can he use the argument that he has just parked the vehicle in a KA territory, and do not plan to use it here.
No. I am perfectly aware that this argument will not fly and have said the same in my original post also. In my personal case, even though not this drastic, my car usually stays parked in my garage for weeks since I do not use my car usually inside city - but I have paid the KA LTT when I decided that my car will be with me at Bangalore for next few years.

My only intention was to find out of there is indeed a clause like this - if this is there, then technically, one can make use of this in many areas, though practically, it may not be easy.

--Anoop
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Old 5th June 2015, 11:55   #1457
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

I heard from one of my friend who lives in a large Whitefield area apartment complex that RTO folks came there and asked for permission to enter the premises and inspect vehicles! The HOA denied permission. RTO folks then called police, there was some altercation and finally the RTO folks decided to station just outside the apartment gate watching for vehicles moving in and out of the apartment complex for a few days continuously! Most of the OOS car owners did not move their car for those days.

This is now getting into the realm of "state sponsored extortion". If this goes on like this, people will start resorting to something like this as a solution!

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Old 5th June 2015, 12:02   #1458
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by vasoo View Post
I heard from one of my friend who lives in a large Whitefield area apartment complex that RTO folks came there and asked for permission to enter the premises and inspect vehicles!
Have a doubt here. What if you take your vehicle back to the registered state after they barge in and put a notice on your windshield? What happens in this situation? (assuming they don't have your licence, RC etc) Can they issue a legal notice?
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Old 5th June 2015, 12:12   #1459
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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RTO folks then called police, there was some altercation and finally the RTO folks decided to station just outside the apartment gate watching for vehicles moving in and out of the apartment complex for a few days continuously! Most of the OOS car owners did not move their car for those days.
I humbly tend to disagree. I don't know if the RTO has rights to enter the private property (the apartment blocks), or the public areas (like parking lots etc.) in these apartment buildings are considered to be a "public" place.

But the RTOs has every right to station themselves on the roads leading to the apartment buildings. And they can do it n number of times, or even put up a special squad there on 24/7 mode. They are enforcing a fully legally brought out law.

Be rest assured that the authorities would have worked upon a plan to deal with this House Owner Association (HOA). For how long can the out of state vehicles play this game? The whole purpose of having a vehicle gets defeated in this way. These House Owner Associations cannot bring up "islands" where Karnataka Police or RTO have difficulties in enforcing the laws of the state.

Quote:
This is now getting into the realm of "state sponsored extortion". If this goes on like this, people will start resorting to something like this as a solution
What was the video about? I could not see it (in office) . But if it is like rioting or physically targetting the officials etc., then that would just aggrieve the situation even further. A few well planned media reports, which creates the "Us v/s Them" mentality in the local population, that would be it.

Read today's Malayala Manorama and then read the earlier posts here. I can see a sea-change in the attitude of people, after the sustained tax collection drive and the vacation of the stay order. People who were belligerent about double taxation, "I have the rights to move where ever I want, law be damned", fundamental rights etc. have now mellowed down. Most now seek a "pay every year" scheme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajohn
Have a doubt here. What if you take your vehicle back to the registered state after they barge in and put a notice on your windshield? What happens in this situation? (assuming they don't have your licence, RC etc) Can they issue a legal notice?
Thinking practically, I guess you could easily pull that stunt. Because issuing a legal notice etc. is of no use. To which address would they issue the notice to? Even if they serve the notice to your Bangalore home, you can deny the existence of that vehicle, or did not belong to you. Serving a notice to your mother state address if of no much use. You can still say, I was there for a very short while. So running away as soon as the notice is served, may actually work out. Unless you find yourself in front of another KA RTO squad at the state's borders .

Last edited by sachinpk : 5th June 2015 at 12:19. Reason: Responding to aajohn as well.
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Old 5th June 2015, 12:17   #1460
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by aajohn View Post
Have a doubt here. What if you take your vehicle back to the registered state after they barge in and put a notice on your windshield? What happens in this situation? (assuming they don't have your licence, RC etc) Can they issue a legal notice?
Soon we should think of getting registration marks (& plates) of all 36 states/UTs/NCR and carry basic tools to flip the number plates while crossing any state border. I request the State RTOs to provide a small stretch of 'no man's land' to carry out the necessary job so that we do not get fined while carrying out the job in each other's territory.

Thanks to the great minds of our 'One India'. Taking my car to Nepal & Bhutan is simpler.
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Old 5th June 2015, 12:42   #1461
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Be rest assured that the authorities would have worked upon a plan to deal with this House Owner Association (HOA). For how long can the out of state vehicles play this game? The whole purpose of having a vehicle gets defeated in this way. These House Owner Associations cannot bring up "islands" where Karnataka Police or RTO have difficulties in enforcing the laws of the state.
RTO's jurisdiction is on the state roads. Not at people's houses. Not in other states. They are not police. And out of state vehicles aren't exactly narcotics dealers. Just to put some kind of analogy, IT department issues notices, asks clarifications and then decides to fine tax offenders in general cases.

I somehow find your tonality seriously offensive (marked in bold). Mods, do you take notice of underlying hate for outsiders here with these posts?

p.s. - Not discussed about the legality and justification of such retaxation. I feel, we need to create right environment for such discussion first.

Last edited by atnyia : 5th June 2015 at 13:01. Reason: added post script
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Old 5th June 2015, 12:54   #1462
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I humbly tend to disagree. I don't know if the RTO has rights to enter the private property (the apartment blocks), or the public areas (like parking lots etc.) in these apartment buildings are considered to be a "public" place.

But the RTOs has every right to station themselves on the roads leading to the apartment buildings. And they can do it n number of times, or even put up a special squad there on 24/7 mode. They are enforcing a fully legally brought out law.

Be rest assured that the authorities would have worked upon a plan to deal with this House Owner Association (HOA). For how long can the out of state vehicles play this game? The whole purpose of having a vehicle gets defeated in this way. These House Owner Associations cannot bring up "islands" where Karnataka Police or RTO have difficulties in enforcing the laws of the state.
The RTO folks don't have a right to enter an apartment block because it is not a public place by any stretch of imagination, also the roads leading to the apartment aren't public roads, the RTO can station themselves on the public roads, quite a few exist in Bangalore, and do some work in the sun.This will be difficult for the folks used to having agents turn the pages on the files they sign.

There are plenty of reasons to prevent an RTO squad from entering an apartment, besides their tendency of vandalising property and dirtying the places, what about the security of womenfolk? Who would you approach if they misbehaved with the residents? out of state cars can be parked inside if the owner has a spare parking spot, I do that when I have visitors, apartments associations aren't proxy tax collection agencies, then there is the small matter of not having to prove your innocence, but that is the topic for another day.

The HOA will have nothing to fear, next time the RTO can at least do their work and get the papers that allows them to enter an apartment. There is something fishy about folks asking permission when they otherwise believe and act as if the law authorizes them to ride roughshod over everyone presumed guilty. The HOA didn't allow them in because some out of state cars parked there were owned by visitors, being in bangalore for a weekend doesn't mean you have to pay a lifetime tax. There is no difficulty enforcing the law of the state by standing on the side of public roads and pulling over "offenders", the law doesn't request HOAs to snitch on their residents or provide shelter to these tireless law enforcer good guys.
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Old 5th June 2015, 13:50   #1463
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Good.. Looks like I have once again ruffled a few feathers today. That is okay, provided non-KA vehicles pay up the state government imposed taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atnyia
And out of state vehicles aren't exactly narcotics dealers.
But are they tax defaulters? If RTO does not have jurisdiction to enter a person's home, or a group of apartment blocks, then I am perfectly fine with that. Let all those procedures and established process as per law be taken care. But still dodging tax is dodging tax, right?

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Mods, do you take notice of underlying hate for outsiders here with these posts?
I am not a Kannadiga, I am an outsider. But who have been here for some time, and have paid the tax dues on time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
the RTO can station themselves on the public roads, quite a few exist in Bangalore, and do some work in the sun.This will be difficult for the folks used to having agents turn the pages on the files they sign.
. All their recent major drives were conducted by standing in the sun. When 150 odd non-KA vehicles were detained for dodging tax, it would be the vehicle owners who would be sweating profusely, rather than the RTO folks. And I did not see any difficulty for the RTO squad to get the dodgers to pay up. Your pet peeves against the RTO, or wishing them a job under hot sun is not going to change any thing on the ground.

Quote:
There are plenty of reasons to prevent an RTO squad from entering an apartment, besides their tendency of vandalising property and dirtying the places, what about the security of womenfolk?
Can you come up with some evidence for your tall claims? Especially "security of womenfolk" and "dirtying up of places"?

Quote:
the law doesn't request HOAs to snitch on their residents or provide shelter to these tireless law enforcer good guys
No problems. The HOA need not snitch. The last time, the RTO had used the services of security guards, cleaning staff, laundry-wallahs etc. to get the information. Sure a bit of extra moneny would help people talk. Intelligence gathering was never an easy game .

So comrades, why spoil a friday evening. Enjoy!!

Last edited by noopster : 5th June 2015 at 15:10. Reason: Please refer Rule#11- also avoid personal attacks. Thanks!
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Old 5th June 2015, 14:47   #1464
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I humbly tend to disagree. I don't know if the RTO has rights to enter the private property (the apartment blocks), or the public areas (like parking lots etc.) in these apartment buildings are considered to be a "public" place.
No area inside a apartment complex is public area. Open spaces are common area for the owners but not for outsiders. And RTOs are not supposed to enter apartment complex to challan vehicles. They do it when the association allows them to enter inside.
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Old 5th June 2015, 14:52   #1465
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
No area inside a apartment complex is public area. Open spaces are common area for the owners but not for outsiders. And RTOs are not supposed to enter apartment complex to challan vehicles. They do it when the association allows them to enter inside.
Okay. Thanks for the clarification. There were some debates on the legal validity of gated community's exclusive use of roads & public space etc. And if RTO does not have jurisdiction there, then that is it. They can neatly park themselves just outside the apartment blocks where the public road begins and start the checks. Off-course discrete enquiries would help them figure out the possible number of non-KA vehicles inside, and then plan accordingly.
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Old 5th June 2015, 15:04   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
what is the procedure for paying the LTT; I moved to Bangalore this Monday and will be living here for the foreseeable future.
From my own experience (others can please chip in):
  • Get an NOC from the RTO the car is registered in
  • Take original invoice, RC book with NOC, LTT receipt and go to your local RTO
  • Carry proof of new address and identity proof and all original car documents
  • Submit the documents at RTO after filling in the required forms for transfer of registration to the new RTO
  • If you so desire, choose a "special" number and pay extra for it

There is another step that will complete the loop: submit the new LTT receipt copy and old registration to the old RTO for a refund of LTT. With one exception, nobody on this thread has managed that successfully!

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
No area inside a apartment complex is public area. Open spaces are common area for the owners but not for outsiders. And RTOs are not supposed to enter apartment complex to challan vehicles. They do it when the association allows them to enter inside.
If the police want to enter a particular premise in pursuance of their duties, I am pretty sure any owners' association would co-operate. This isn't the US where you can demand to see a warrant and the cops will quietly slink away, tail between legs

Last edited by Rehaan : 5th June 2015 at 17:35. Reason: Merging :)
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Old 5th June 2015, 15:26   #1467
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
If the police want to enter a particular premise in pursuance of their duties, I am pretty sure any owners' association would co-operate. This isn't the US where you can demand to see a warrant and the cops will quietly slink away, tail between legs
There are apartments who have denied RTO entry and RTO couldn't force themselves in. Yes, may be if its related to any criminal case they may get entry but not at least to challan/tax vehicles.

We never know, they might change the rules accordingly and get a free entry as well.
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Old 5th June 2015, 16:12   #1468
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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We never know, they might change the rules accordingly and get a free entry as well.
. You never know, another amendment may be on its way. But overall I see a change in strategy. Karnataka RTO is not on a publicity drive with the tax collection this time. It is happening, with more vigour but with more better planning. An RTO squad's tussle with a Housing Society Association may have once again brought in some media attention. Why create all the ruckus, when all they have to do is to just go a few meters and park on the main road next to the entrance?

The Housing Owner Association again is not going to get any victory by such things. Because a vehicle is bought to be used on the road. Perhaps the vehicle owners would the be reduced to driving their vehicles inside the apartment campus like those tiny cars used by the kids. At best the barricading of RTO officials is just a stop gap measure.

Last edited by sachinpk : 5th June 2015 at 16:13.
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Old 5th June 2015, 16:48   #1469
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
. All their recent major drives were conducted by standing in the sun. When 150 odd non-KA vehicles were detained for dodging tax, it would be the vehicle owners who would be sweating profusely, rather than the RTO folks. And I did not see any difficulty for the RTO squad to get the dodgers to pay up. Your pet peeves against the RTO, or wishing them a job under hot sun is not going to change any thing on the ground.

Can you come up with some evidence for your tall claims? Especially "security of womenfolk" and "dirtying up of places"?

No problems. The HOA need not snitch. The last time, the RTO had used the services of security guards, cleaning staff, laundry-wallahs etc. to get the information. Sure a bit of extra moneny would help people talk. Intelligence gathering was never an easy game .

So comrades, why spoil a friday evening. Enjoy!!
I just said, they need to operate in a public space, under the sun, the central RTO took 9 months for an address changes/hypothecation termination, so the turning pages story is not hearsay its my actual experience. The RTO folks have to station themselves on a public road and do their jobs, that is what they are authorised to do, doesn't the law specifiy "usage" as the reason why LTT has to be paid? That can happen only on a public road right.

Dirtying the place needs no particular evidence, the RTO office is proof, basically I wouldnt trust government employess on a powertrip to behave themselves, say with a single woman in a badly lit basement, add to that a language problem. Better to be safe than sorry, by the way if they know that out of state vehicles abound, why not be have squads in that area? Isn't there a video in circulation of these respectable officers abusing and assaulting a lady driver?

I hope you are not suggesting that payouts should be the norm, "intelligence gathering" should be diverted to more serious stuff but that has little to do with LTT. Comrade- that explains a lot.
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Old 5th June 2015, 17:12   #1470
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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I just said, they need to operate in a public space, under the sun, the central RTO took 9 months for an address changes/hypothecation termination, so the turning pages story is not hearsay its my actual experience.
Well I have a different experience. I could get my hypothecation cancelled in a week's time. This happened at Indira Nagar RTO. A charge of Rs.100 was levied and receipt issued. My vehicle was a KA registered one. So your experience may be totally different from what others face.

Quote:
The RTO folks have to station themselves on a public road and do their jobs, that is what they are authorised to do, doesn't the law specifiy "usage" as the reason why LTT has to be paid? That can happen only on a public road right.
"Intention of usage" is also an important point. When a vehicle is parked in an area in KA, it is assumed that the vehicle would be used in KA roads. But now that people say RTO cannot enter a private property/household, let us park it aside. If an RTO official comes knocking at the doors, let the people ask them to move out.

Quote:
Dirtying the place needs no particular evidence, the RTO office is proof, basically I wouldnt trust government employess on a powertrip to behave themselves, say with a single woman in a badly lit basement, add to that a language problem.
You are making assumptions after assumptions. RTO office is a public building, does not mean people who work there are the only people who make it dirty. "Single woman and badly lit basement" - that looks good for a movie scene. Can you show me one incident in which an RTO official on the pretext of collecting LTT, molested a single woman in a badly lit basement?

Quote:
Isn't there a video in circulation of these respectable officers abusing and assaulting a lady driver?
I have seen that video. The RTO official did not even touch her. When she started getting uppity an official stood in front of her car and scuttled her plans. It was that woman who was hollering about what she would do, trying to call people on phone and then finally throwing the keys off and walking off. If this is the boorish attitude a so called "educated woman" can show on a public road, RTO officials are much more better.

Quote:
I hope you are not suggesting that payouts should be the norm, "intelligence gathering" should be diverted to more serious stuff but that has little to do with LTT. Comrade- that explains a lot.
No pay outs for dodging the tax. But if a small tip to a gardener in an apartment building, will get all the details of non-KA vehicles, sure RTO can try that.

Any way what's the point fighting it out here comrade? It is at present a fully established rule in the state of Karnataka. HC has vacated the stay. Next option is to approach Hon. Supreme Court. Perhaps people can try that, but as I see it no one has tried it today. The National Road Safety Bill which may stop this is not even listed for the upcoming Parliament sessions.
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