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Old 5th June 2015, 17:32   #1471
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

A private car parked in private premises shouldn't attract any road taxation.

Now the above point might be beautiful, but not so beautiful for the car if some restless RTO seizes the car and dumps it somewhere exposed to the elements of nature till the litigation is over.

In short, be like the common man, pay up before (the issue & car) turns ugly, and whine about it in the forums & disqus.
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Old 5th June 2015, 17:39   #1472
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

More malicious slander without a shred of proof and that too on top of justifying tax evasion!

I am not from Karnataka but I have been living here for sometime now, I have seen how people get their cars from neighboring states and did not bother paying taxes even though they had settled and bought homes here.


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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post

Dirtying the place needs no particular evidence, the RTO office is proof, basically I wouldnt trust government employess on a powertrip to behave themselves, say with a single woman in a badly lit basement, add to that a language problem. Better to be safe than sorry, by the way if they know that out of state vehicles abound, why not be have squads in that area?
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Old 5th June 2015, 17:45   #1473
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Well I have a different experience. I could get my hypothecation cancelled in a week's time. This happened at Indira Nagar RTO. A charge of Rs.100 was levied and receipt issued. My vehicle was a KA registered one. So your experience may be totally different from what others face.

"Intention of usage" is also an important point. If an RTO official comes knocking at the doors, let the people ask them to move out.

You are making assumptions after assumptions. ..
Can you show me one incident in which an RTO official on the pretext of collecting LTT, molested a single woman in a badly lit basement?

I have seen that video. ..RTO officials are much more better.

No pay outs for dodging the tax. But if a small tip to a gardener in an apartment building, will get all the details of non-KA vehicles, sure RTO can try that.

Any way what's the point fighting it out here comrade? It is at present a fully established rule in the state of Karnataka. HC has vacated the stay. Next option is to approach Hon. Supreme Court. Perhaps people can try that, but as I see it no one has tried it today. The National Road Safety Bill which may stop this is not even listed for the upcoming Parliament sessions.
My car is KA registered, so the Koramangala RTO experience is quite the norm, 2000 bucks though will speed things up to 4 days.

Usage, not intention, is the law, why does anyone visiting bangalore, probably owning an apartment here have to pay tax? Local employment means a tax liability, the RTO should have no business pulling over anyone passing through, own property here doesn't mean they have any obligation to pay LTT.

Safe than sorry, if the RTO is sure that people are using out of state vehicles, I am sure they will have no trouble getting in to the complex and finding the car. The fact they asked for permission, something government officers wouldn't do, says that they were up to no good. The HOA didn't allow any untoward incident by not allowing the RTO folks in, using your logic, intention of harm. The initial highs are over, the latest drive against local commercial vehicles. They are fudging LTT numbers clubbing it with local permit violations. Without RTO help, how do you run an out of state bus on local trips?

No evidence of the RTO were up to or said to her to make her react like that, I guess the woman reacted just as anyone would, , law enforcement means you meet some resistance, RTO folks signed up for and are well paid to face this. You keep trolling this thread saying the RTO is right, some of us are just saying that we don't have any obligation to prove our innocence, if we are driving an out of state car.

Comrade- the word explains your thought process, not the current status of the bill/stay/new &harassing legislation that our representatives have thought up.
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Old 5th June 2015, 18:11   #1474
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Let me comment on this HOT thread.

1- I am a Malayali living in Bangalore for last 15 years or so, pretty much settled here.

2- I used to have a KL car but when i got the opportunity to change vehicle, i decided to go for KA registration. Subsequently i have made 3-4 old and new purchases but all were KA cars. Logic was that i was living here then why go through this circus of avoiding tax. Yes cars are still much cheaper in my home town also.

Issue here is with regards to people who come for shorter duration, say for 3-4 years assignment. It is highly impractical for that person to sell car or pay life tax. Again partialyl due to the archaic slow system where refunds are more complex.

Logical thing to do is, charge a little higher tax but let it be yearly or maybe even blocks of 3 or 5 years. This way people will automatically comply more than to avoid it.

Now the larger question is one country one tax, which i firmly believe in. But this is far from being a practical reality in our country right now. Thanks to decades of having different policies, budget planning etc at state and central level. Hope we manage to get there in the next few years at least.

EDIT: as far as RTO experiences are concerned, i have had pleasant experiences too. But yes for a simple name change of a second hand car i had to take time off work for 4 days and visit 2 RTO's. Never paid a bribe and the never hand to wait for more than 24 hours at one RTO. But that 4 days time off was tedious, so i started using either the concierge facility at offices or working through friends who had connections in RTO.

Last edited by Jaggu : 5th June 2015 at 18:14.
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Old 5th June 2015, 18:12   #1475
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhodrolok View Post
More malicious slander without a shred of proof and that too on top of justifying tax evasion!
I am not from Karnataka but I have been living here for sometime now, I have seen how people get their cars from neighboring states and did not bother paying taxes even though they had settled and bought homes here.
Slander against people calling out of state citizens criminals is justified in my book, after all its not like the outsider angle is not milked for maximum effect here. Tax evasion is a pretty loose term to be throwing around, tax compliance is good enough, its not like the cars stopped have no number plates, when a company like Vodafone get a retrospective tax notice it is tax terrorism and the state is wrong, when citizens are pulled over and asked to explain their innocence, they are tax evaders and the government absolutely innocent. Actual tax evaders would have paid LTT, only they can afford it. Karnataka has no record of actual addresses for the owners, check the requirements to furnish address proof, so crime prevention isn't one of the goals of this drive as the RTO claim. Also a system where the state of the registration isn't obvious would help, that is a long way off.

The people who are settled here permanently should and do pay, or basically if you want better resale, I know people who own multiple properties but don't live here, just because they visit Electronic City/Whitefield twice a month on weekdays doesn't mean they are tax evaders. The old timers whining about rising cost of living isn't reason to criminalize people who earn/own more, which is what this drive is about. The government created this problem by collecting high taxes and providing no infrastructure, solving a problem you helped create is defined as racketeering.
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Old 6th June 2015, 10:40   #1476
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk
Usage, not intention, is the law, why does anyone visiting bangalore, probably owning an apartment here have to pay tax?
Section 3 of the The Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act, is very clear on which vehicles are to be levied with the tax - "A tax at the rates specified in Part A of the Schedule shall be levied on all motor vehicles suitable for use on roads". So parking it inside apartment blocks etc. will be of no use to dodge the tax.

Quote:
The fact they asked for permission, something government officers wouldn't do, says that they were up to no good.
A person who plans to do no good, would try to evade any form of questioning and operate in secrecy. With your logic a thief breaking into a house without any one noticing it, is actually doing a good deed. If it was not a good deed, he would have approached the house owner and seek approvals.

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No evidence of the RTO were up to or said to her to make her react like that, I guess the woman reacted just as anyone would, , law enforcement means you meet some resistance, RTO folks signed up for and are well paid to face this.
Yes law enforcement is a tough job. In that greate video it was an uncouth woman, with no sense of decency who was trying to holler, throw tantrums and trying to run away when she knew she was on the wrong side of the law . She ran away like a crook by throwing away the keys. It was the RTO officials who acted more professionally - the RTO even allowed his photograph to be taken. So the boorish woman can continue with the uncouth behaviour, but the moot point remains the same. She dodged the tax, so she has to pay up. I only feel sorry for her kids, parents and husband who may have to tolerate this behaviour on a 24/7 basis.

Quote:
You keep trolling this thread saying the RTO is right, some of us are just saying that we don't have any obligation to prove our innocence, if we are driving an out of state car.
Fine, do maintain the attitude that your innocence need not be proven. But that logic would not work when the RTO checks a non-KA vehicle and says that the vehicle was in use for more than 30 days, so pay the LTT. If the owner does not pay, the vehicle gets seized and the owner can start throwing tantrums standing on the roads.

Quote:
Tax evasion is a pretty loose term to be throwing around, tax compliance is good enough
When people give excuses, or hide cars in the parking lots to avoid payment of tax, what else is it other than tax evasion/tax dodging?

Quote:
The old timers whining about rising cost of living isn't reason to criminalize people who earn/own more, which is what this drive is about.
You are mixing issues. RTO is collecting LTT from vehicle owners only, not from any one else. If some one can own a vehicle, he can pay the taxes as well. This is not some exclusive drive against people who earn more. A person can earn crores, but RTO will not move against him if he does not have a vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu
Logical thing to do is, charge a little higher tax but let it be yearly or maybe even blocks of 3 or 5 years. This way people will automatically comply more than to avoid it.
The catch here is that my friend, for RTO to make any such enforcement it has to be proven that the vehicle was in use in KA roads for a year. If a one year provision is given, people would just repeatedly say that - "You know what, I just landed one month back from KL,TN,AP,TS,MH" etc. etc. We are blindly assuming that people would pay the tax. It is only very recently that non-KA vehicle owners have at least said that they would pay up if given a yearly payment provision. Just scan this thread 20-30 pages, if you have the patience and time. See the arguments listed out. India allows freedom of movement, states have no right to tax me, let KA collect tax from RTO from xyz state. Then there were assumptions (and jubiliation) after a judge made some oral observations. So all that time, the attitude was no tax would be paid. It was only after the arguments fell flat, and the RTO continued with the drive; many people started thinking about making yearly payments.

So it is like...

while (driving vehicle in KA){
if(no RTO LTT collection drive){
iWillNotPayRoadTax();
}else{
hideVehicle();
askForPerYearPayingOptions();
}
curseRTO();
curseKarnatakaGovt();
}
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Old 6th June 2015, 13:21   #1477
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The catch here is that my friend, for RTO ....
Since the righteous RTO seems to be super efficient at collecting taxes, one would expect that they be righteous and fast when refunding the taxes as well. That doesn't seem to be the case, eh?

When a person pays LTT during the purchase of the car, ideally, that should be the end the matter. How many lifetimes does a car and it's owner have anyway? Laws like these are made to squeeze money out of people; it's almost extortion. All these problems would be solved if only these state RTOs were done away with and a centralized taxation system was established.
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Old 7th June 2015, 11:33   #1478
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Originally Posted by ContessMan View Post
When a person pays LTT during the purchase of the car, ideally, that should be the end the matter.
I request you to read through the previous pages, which talks about the rights of state to collect tax, future plans for the Central Government regarding the road tax etc. That would clarify your concerns. Have a good Sunday!!

Sticker Campaign against LTT (Mathrubumi:Malayalam)
Talks about a sticker campaign organised against the LTT collection drive by KA RTO. A meeting is also scheduled by the groups at a flat in Bellandur, Sarjapur Road, today at 1500 hrs.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 7th June 2015 at 12:10. Reason: Back to back posts merged
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Old 7th June 2015, 13:11   #1479
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
1- I am a Malayali living in Bangalore for last 15 years or so, pretty much settled here.
2- I used to have a KL car but when i got the opportunity to change vehicle, i decided to go for KA registration. Subsequently i have made 3-4 old and new purchases but all were KA cars. Logic was that i was living here then why go through this circus of avoiding tax. Yes cars are still much cheaper in my home town also.
Totally agree with you JK. Even I'm a Keralite living and working Bangalore for 13 years now. I've owned 3 cars here, all bought and registered in Bangalore. I have a KL registered bike, for which I've paid the lifetime tax over here. In my opinion, the best way to come out of this situation, as you mentioned, is to allow yearly taxation. That way, people who really want to pay taxes can do it. Others, who still want to evade the taxes should be penalized. End of story.
Below is the comparison between KA and KL taxation as an example and the motivation for people to evade taxes in KA. (KA taxes is approximate % including the cess amount)

Name:  KA_KL.png
Views: 960
Size:  4.4 KB

As you can see, in the 0-5L category, the KA taxes is more than double that of KL. In 5-10L, it is almost double and so on. Just imagine, the amount of money one can save depending on the price of the car.
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:02   #1480
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by A350XWB
Below is the comparison between KA and KL taxation as an example and the motivation for people to evade taxes in KA. (KA taxes is approximate % including the cess amount)
Are you sure on the taxes in KL? Because In social media I regulary see photos of the pathetic roads in a few Kerala towns and cities, with a caption saying that KL has one of the highest road taxes, but the government does not maintain the roads well .

As I had mentioned earlier, KA has found out that due to better career prospects etc. people would have to come to cities like Bangalore. So higher the vehicle taxes etc. This is also because of a the uneven growth we see in the country. Some states have better ways to allow job making enterprises to set shop in the state, some others abysmally fail on this part. Perhaps if all states can think about good job creation opportunities in their areas, this kind of mad rush to one or two cities would slowly stop.
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:24   #1481
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Are you sure on the taxes in KL? Because In social media I regulary see photos of the pathetic roads in a few Kerala towns and cities, with a caption saying that KL has one of the highest road taxes, but the government does not maintain the roads well .

As I had mentioned earlier, KA has found out that due to better career prospects etc. people would have to come to cities like Bangalore. So higher the vehicle taxes etc.
Taxes in Kerala are very much correct.

"To make something look legit, take a photograph, caption it and upload it in the social media" - Leonardo da Vinci

I believe the better career prospects is with respect to Bangalore alone. As someone pointed out in this thread already, the best fix (good for both KA govt and non-KA vehicle users) is to introduce a system were it is possible to pay 2/3/5 years tax for non-KA cars. I am sure that people will queue up to pay taxes.

Not everyone who has come to Bangalore come with plans to settle here in Bangalore.
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:35   #1482
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Are you sure on the taxes in KL? Because In social media I regulary see photos of the pathetic roads in a few Kerala towns and cities, with a caption saying that KL has one of the highest road taxes, but the government does not maintain the roads well .
Was this sarcastic or an ignorant post? You usually do your research well, hence the question. Earlier I used to be frustrated with the roads in Kerala. But after seeing the roads in Bangalore and in comparing the taxes on road and fuel that the KA govt charges, I am pretty OK with the job KL govt is doing with the roads
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:35   #1483
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Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat View Post
the best fix (good for both KA govt and non-KA vehicle users) is to introduce a system were it is possible to pay 2/3/5 years tax for non-KA cars.
True. With the current strong drive by the KA RTO, people who earlier did not bothered to pay any form of vehicle tax, have started thinking about paying the tax provided a yearly tax payment scheme is launched.

What KA authorities can do is to introduce a yearly tax payment scheme. But even after that a non-KA vehicle is found on the roads (after the 30 day time window), LTT should be collected immediately. Such people should not be given any incentive to pay up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenmz
Was this sarcastic or an ignorant post? You usually do your research well, hence the question.
Thanks for the compliments . Yes, you can take it as an ignorant post. Because the images which was shown in the Facebook posting was really ugly. I don't know which town or city in Kerala had such dirt poor roads. The photo was taken during rainy season, and it was all slush around. But it was not a road which was outside KL. The vehicle numbers, dressing style etc. indicated that it was in KL. And the caption clearly said KL has a high motor vehicle tax. But the table shown here, clearly indicates it is other wise.

Last edited by sachinpk : 8th June 2015 at 10:38.
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:44   #1484
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Because the images which was shown in the Facebook posting was really ugly. I don't know which town or city in Kerala had such dirt poor roads. The photo was taken during rainy season, and it was all slush around.
Nobody would say that roads in Kerala are all pristine. What is different is that a bad road gets repaired quickly in Kerala due to the very active participation by various political, youth, non-profit and other outfits in civic matters.

Exceptions do exist, though.
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Old 8th June 2015, 10:45   #1485
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Default Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore

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Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat View Post
As someone pointed out in this thread already, the best fix (good for both KA govt and non-KA vehicle users) is to introduce a system were it is possible to pay 2/3/5 years tax for non-KA cars. I am sure that people will queue up to pay taxes.

Not everyone who has come to Bangalore come with plans to settle here in Bangalore.
. I would say make an arrangement of collecting yearly tax for non-state vehicle, whereas let them collect LTT for vehicles getting registered there, which are themselves plenty in number.

At times, I feel the 'Drive Without Borders' campaign is trying to reach an ideal world, whereas there are better viable options. States do have expense to maintain roads and tax collected is definitely one of the source which aids in that. Giving the whole control back to Centre is also not a good model. I'm a person who paid LTT voluntarily in Bangalore for my then 7 year old Maruti 800 DX MPFI of the order of 20,000/- and it's almost 1/5th of the resale value of the car. The correct procedure was to apply for NOC at KL, and then get it re-registered in KA. But I was reluctant to lose my KL registration, as I had plans to bring the car back to Kerala (And I've done that exactly after 3 years, I was a loser anyway).

After paying LTT in KA, the folks seems to be not even bothered about re-registering in KA, though I thought the law required it to be done so.

Last edited by roby.thomas : 8th June 2015 at 10:48. Reason: Corrected spelling
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