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Old 11th April 2014, 16:28   #31
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Default re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
XUV R&D cost is 600+Crores. (Around 2 years ago.)
Xylo's is ~ 300 Crores. (Around 2+ years ago.)
Tata Aria's is 600 Million $'s. (Around 2+ years ago.)
$600M sounds far fetched. Is there some data to corroborate this?

If Tata Indeed spent $600M and had 2 idiots price them wrong (19L Launch price?) then those two should be ...
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Old 11th April 2014, 16:45   #32
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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Looking at your post, seems Mahindra has done some serious crimes.
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Frankly, I have a lot of confidence on Storme seeing all the recent ownership reports. Now if there are a bunch who can risk and buy Aria and give us their ownership reports, a lot of people will have confidence in that as well. Now, the question is who wants to bite the first bullet? Definitely NOT me!!
You seem to only be saying something along the lines of "sales figures are the final truth" or "joh jeeta vohi sikander". My point however is that if sales success/failure at timepoint t1 distorts through herd-thought like yours INDIVIDUAL (not the market as a whole) brand perceptions at timepoint t2 thru say t10 then what results is exagerrated prejudicial bashing EVEN IF the truth about the brand has changed or was never as bad as the herd-thought suggests.

For eg. you seem mighty impressed by Mahindra's engineering and service (is that just from hearsay, perchance? if so: rem the point about herding). But the point is: are you even open to the suggestion that tata is not much worse than mahindra on these very criteria? Maybe your image of "Anand"'s virtues is exagerrated by many multiples: how dare he have launched a totally unsorted vehicle with wanton component defects at predatory prices? Cynical and exploitative, i'd say, as do many many early XUV500 buyers.

Conversely, maybe tata's not so bad, afterall, now and tomorrow. But the herd that follows certain brands and promotes a bashing of others is closed-minded, and often deluded in its perceptions. Every member of such a herd is a sucker (relatively speaking only!) who thinks he's wise only because he's got the force of numbers with him.

There is systematic herd-based, word-of-mouth-based mis-perception and mis-information about different brands in India, and even on fora like team-bhp. Which is why the car market is dysfunctional, almost oligopolistic, with just 2-3 companies lording it over all the mass market segments. So much for the "rational" Indian consumer, who has a genius for "value"!

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Originally Posted by wilful View Post
But I will also speak my mind as a customer on what I feel is right or wrong.
The point is: will your "mind as a customer" be closed, risk-averse and opiniated based on the follow-the-herd-of-dominant-opinion about companies/brands? Or: will it be open, well-informed, autonomous?

Of course I don't mean you personally: I am merely pointing to the havoc the first sort of customer is causing in the market, and for the rest of us.

e.g., a duopolistic concentration in most segments

e.g., over-priced unsafe, under-engineered cars that sell on the basis brand-blind-faith (reliability! brilliant ASS! Resale value!) and gizmo-s

e.g., the perverse feedback loop caused by the distortion in resale "value", leading to further herd effects


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Old 11th April 2014, 17:09   #33
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
You seem to only be saying something along the lines of "sales figures are the final truth" or "joh jeeta vohi sikander". My point however is that if sales success/failure at timepoint t1 distorts through herd-thought like yours INDIVIDUAL (not the market as a whole) brand perceptions at timepoint t2 thru say t10 then what results is exagerrated prejudicial bashing EVEN IF the truth about the brand has changed or was never as bad as the herd-thought suggests.
And your counterpoint is that the market is made up of idiots. What is your suggestion to accurately measure quality of an automobile?
Sales figures - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-analysis.html (February 2014 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis)

But they're not good enough for you. customers are idiots, and that tends to bias it.

How about Service ratings ?
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...ndex-csi-study
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-vds

If all these metrics are unreliable for you, then what is ? Do you have some new framework to assess brand quality?

Quote:
Maybe your image of "Anand"'s virtues is exagerrated by many multiples: how dare he have launched a totally unsorted vehicle with wanton component defects at predatory prices? Cynical and exploitative, i'd say, as do many many early XUV500 buyers.
It sure beats launching a totally unsorted vehicle at a ripoff price

Every manufacturer (and not necessarily the Automobile sector) has to put up with the idiosyncrasies and non-ideal nature of its customers. All of them seem to find a way to figure out and work around them, instead of blaming them.

Last edited by greenhorn : 11th April 2014 at 17:28.
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Old 11th April 2014, 17:14   #34
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
And your counterpoint is that the market is made up of idiots. What is your suggestion to accurately measure quality of an automobile?
Sales figures - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-analysis.html (February 2014 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis)

But they're not good enough for you. customers are idiots, and that tends to bias it.

How about Service ratings ?
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...ndex-csi-study
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...lity-study-vds
You remind of this (Tata Aria : Test Drive & Review) discussion which took place.
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Old 11th April 2014, 17:24   #35
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Simple - I do not say that XUV5OO is as reliable as Toyota and rolled out of the factory glitch free. I am ready to live with Niggles as long as they are acknowledged and fixed. Some Engines were opened and got glitches in as early as 1000 kms. Mahindra acknowledged it and replaced the engine free of cost under warranty in a week i guess.The initial batch of XUVs had an extended one year of warranty provided, which was NOT provided with Aria. Indian21r's Aria was left dead in the A.S.S for weeks without any proper support. For a flagship product, Tata could send some Engineers and Mechanics to the dealership, merely 10 kms away from their factory to analyse and fix the problem. If Tata had done that and provided a standby vehicle, that would build the feel good factor and goodwill for Tata.

No XUV5OO is known to be stuck for want of parts / knowldge etc/ . Arias have been long enough in the service station to conclude that no proper support is avaialble. Mahindra addressed this problem through RMs and purple clubs available for thier flaship products like XUV/Rexton etc.

I am an innova fan, but i am willing to buy a scorpio as i have confidence, M&M will acknowledge and resolve any issue/niggle. I somehow do not have the same confidence on Tata till date. I pray they develop customer relations strategy.
You sure seem to cut Mahindra a lot of slack! Tata motors would have (and arguably, has already!) been crucified for much less!

That is what "brand" perception is in India: out of touch with the truth on the ground, replete with double (multiple!) standards. Why use words like "pray", "confidence"? Why do so few car buyers in India base their decisions on Reason/Taste and take a risk rather than join a "confidence"-giving herd of consumers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
And your counterpoint is that the market is made up of idiots. What is your suggestion to accurately measure quality of an automobile?
the market is not made up of idiots: it is made up mostly of what in behavioural economics is called "rational fools". The idiocy is not at the individual level but at the collective, market-wide level because of missing and distorted information/perceptions about cars/car companies, and herd-effects.


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Old 11th April 2014, 18:31   #36
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

I would like to add my experience with Tata here too.
Before I bought the Safari in 2012 we had in the family a Wagon R and a Swift. I had been responsible for getting them serviced in Meerut.
Every time the car was given for service :
1. Somebody attended to me as soon as I arrived.
2. The SA ALWAYS took a Test Drive with me and added inputs of his own after noting down my issues.
3. The Car was always washed well and polished.
4. After I took the delivery of the car I never had to go back to the Service centre before the next service.

I bought my Safari from Rama Motors Okhla and it had all its services done from there.
Now Please see how TATA has fared:
I bought the Safari on 28th August 2012, took delivery in the evening and missed most points of PDI.
1. I had to drive back the very next day as they had forgotten to put the flasher or something and the indicators were not working, the clutch spring had not been oiled was making a lot of noise.
2. When it rained for the 1st time water dropped from the roof. Apparently the sealing of windscreen had not been done properly. I gave my Safari in so that they could fix it. got it back after 2 days with the beige interior all greased up.

Now coming to the regular services:
1. The SA's in the service centre take a long time in approaching you as you wait for someone to open a job card.
2. No One has ever taken a Test Drive with me to see if the Safari has some issue which I might have missed.
3. The Safari is always returned more dirty than I gave.
4. No Polishing is done, and whatever they apply on the plastics in the interior by hand makes it even worse.
5. I cracked my windshield and gave it for a replacement under insurance. After the fitment of the new windshield the water again comes into the cabin during rains. This when I told them to be very careful when they fit it and do a proper job.
6. They never even mention Alignment/Balancing. Even though I do it myself after every 5k but they should at least ask a customer about it.

As you can see I have nothing bad to say about my Safari, yes it has its shortcomings but I knew them all before I went for it. But the service centres represents TATA and I never leave with a smile after interacting with TATA.
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Old 11th April 2014, 19:03   #37
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by Ajitsingh208 View Post
I would like to add my experience with Tata here too.
Before I bought the Safari in 2012 we had in the family a Wagon R and a Swift. I had been responsible for getting them serviced in Meerut.
Every time the car was given for service :
1. Somebody attended to me as soon as I arrived.
2. The SA ALWAYS took a Test Drive with me and added inputs of his own after noting down my issues.
3. The Car was always washed well and polished.
4. After I took the delivery of the car I never had to go back to the Service centre before the next service.
Hi.

Switch to Concorde (South Ex.)

In your experience is the workmanship, the spares availibility and prices, and the warranty policy terrible, or just sub-par?

Because in my experience, although tata ASS is improving, it is all things considered more 'sub-par' rather than 'catastrophic' or 'callous' or 'terrible'. And yet the brand perception is exaggeratedly of the latter.

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Old 11th April 2014, 19:19   #38
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post

The point is: will your "mind as a customer" be closed, risk-averse and opiniated based on the follow-the-herd-of-dominant-opinion about companies/brands? Or: will it be open, well-informed, autonomous?

Of course I don't mean you personally: I am merely pointing to the havoc the first sort of customer is causing in the market, and for the rest of us.

e.g., a duopolistic concentration in most segments

e.g., over-priced unsafe, under-engineered cars that sell on the basis brand-blind-faith (reliability! brilliant ASS! Resale value!) and gizmo-s

e.g., the perverse feedback loop caused by the distortion in resale "value", leading to further herd effects


Thanks!
It largely depends on where I am as a customer. I mean - if I am an individual with deep pockets, which I am not, and a love for cars (which I have) I would follow my heart and take risks (I could then afford to do so). On the other hand, if I am an individual with limited resources (which I am), albeit with that love for cars, I would then be inclined to play safe and go the tried and trusted route with my hard earned pittance.
Hence the apetite for risk largely depends on one's financial capacity IMHO. And the herd for the most part comprises of individuals with limited resources.
For eg : I would have gone in for a Skoda or VW the last time I changed my car but with hardly any margin for error financially, I played safe and stuck to a Honda.

Last edited by wilful : 11th April 2014 at 19:20.
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Old 11th April 2014, 19:45   #39
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by wilful View Post
It largely depends on where I am as a customer. I mean - if I am an individual with deep pockets, which I am not, and a love for cars (which I have) I would follow my heart and take risks (I could then afford to do so). On the other hand, if I am an individual with limited resources (which I am), albeit with that love for cars, I would then be inclined to play safe and go the tried and trusted route with my hard earned pittance.
Hence the apetite for risk largely depends on one's financial capacity IMHO. And the herd for the most part comprises of individuals with limited resources.
For eg : I would have gone in for a Skoda or VW the last time I changed my car but with hardly any margin for error financially, I played safe and stuck to a Honda.
Well put. Thanks.

However, my argument is directed more at the way certain deep truths (such as that Honda-s are a totally 'safe' bet while say Tata or Skoda are radically 'risky') develop too strongly in our market and too easily become ossified fetishes that take on a life of their own.

I know 'we Indians are like that only!' but still!
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Old 11th April 2014, 20:25   #40
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
Volumes Dear. Volumes!! ours is price sensitive market. Again our market hates cheap products. Eg: Nano
What volumes?
For a product to be a success, it has to meet volume, cost and selling price targets. That is the very definition of ‘cost effective’

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A person with good taste is very much necessary to make good products. Person who is targeting just profits wont be able to fix a brand like Tata.
That is not the job of the CEO. That’s the job of the styling chief (Examples are Peter Schreyer & how he turned around Kia’s styling)
The job of the CEO is to bring in the right people, motivate, delegate, track progress & ensure deliverables are met. If I had to sum it up in a word, he has to ‘lead’

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Nope, I am asking them to improvise.
Never take a back step. Its the first step to failure.
Sorry you are not making sense. If demand drops & cars are gathering dust in the showrooms, the first & shot-term step is to cut production.
‘Improvising’ the design can take several months to year.

Quote:
Any Ideas? Use prototype models. Because, only they can give you a mild boost to your sales.

And these models are yours. Presenting them in expo's isn't the sole reason for which they were made. Use the shells, use your current engines.
Prototypes are hand made and cost millions & are used to gauge customer response to a particular 'styling direction.'

Secondly, they are meant to push the boundaries when it comes to technology, components & processes and are not always practical or ready for production

Quote:
XUV R&D cost is 600+Crores. (Around 2 years ago.)
Xylo's is ~ 300 Crores. (Around 2+ years ago.)
Tata Aria's is 600 Million $'s. (Around 2+ years ago.)
With 1500 Crores, for 8-10 products, with rising commodity prices and labor costs, rising infra costs, hmm. Do you think, it is sufficient?
A car (XUV, Xylo) takes 4 years to design. This 1500 cr is for 1 year

Last edited by Mpower : 12th April 2014 at 07:06.
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Old 11th April 2014, 23:11   #41
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
Volumes Dear. Volumes!! ours is price sensitive market. Again our market hates cheap products. Eg: Nano.
Our markets like valued products at cheap prices.

Quote:
A person with good taste is very much necessary to make good products. Person who is targeting just profits wont be able to fix a brand like Tata.
Not necessarily. Its not necessarily a CEO's job to 'create' a good product. A CEO's job is mainly the execution - to ensure the business processes run such that the company reaches its goal.

Quote:
XUV R&D cost is 600+Crores. (Around 2 years ago.)
Xylo's is ~ 300 Crores. (Around 2+ years ago.)
Tata Aria's is 600 Million $'s. (Around 2+ years ago.)
With 1500 Crores, for 8-10 products, with rising commodity prices and labor costs, rising infra costs, hmm. Do you think, it is sufficient?
$600 Million!? Thats ~2,800 Crore Indian Rupees just on the Aria. You're way off mark buddy. IIRC the WHOLE Pune plant cost TATA ~1200 crore to set-up.

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Originally Posted by madhu33 View Post
Recently on team-bhp there has been various threads related to cars / other topics around Tata Motors. It is indeed painful to see how each one of those threads become no more than a TATA BASHING thread.
Tata Motors surely must have done a lot of wrongs to have it against them...
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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
...There is systematic herd-based, word-of-mouth-based mis-perception and mis-information about different brands in India, and even on fora like team-bhp. Which is why the car market is dysfunctional, almost oligopolistic, with just 2-3 companies lording it over all the mass market segments. So much for the "rational" Indian consumer, who has a genius for "value"!...
Both +10. It sometimes shocks me to see SO much hate here!

Although thats how MOST of social media works, I can't believe why even enthusiasts come out only when something goes wrong for them!
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Old 11th April 2014, 23:54   #42
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

Post no.2 of this thread appears more in the nature of poking fun at Tata Motors than indulging in any constructive criticism. And most of what is narrated therein is beyond my comprehension. But one thing is for sure. Tata is most ridiculed and looked-down brand today in India. Which is why I feel they should bow out of auto industry and focus on steel and TCS, or whatever. Because, no matter how much they improve, we won't stop at poking fun at them. And the tribe of critics I see here on teambhp, will never buy a Tata car. No matter how much Tata improves them. But they will never pass up an iota of opportunity to bash their cars. And I'm sure they will aslo disagree with me when I say TM should shut shop. Because if that happens, they will have none to pick on. So, Tata Motors is reduced to a circus clown.
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Old 12th April 2014, 03:38   #43
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. Tata is most ridiculed and looked-down brand today in India. Which is why I feel they should bow out of auto industry and focus on steel and TCS, or whatever. Because, no matter how much they improve, we won't stop at poking fun at them. And the tribe of critics I see here on teambhp, will never buy a Tata car. No matter how much Tata improves them. But they will never pass up an iota of opportunity to bash their cars. And I'm sure they will aslo disagree with me when I say TM should shut shop. Because if that happens, they will have none to pick on. So, Tata Motors is reduced to a circus clown.
All it takes is one amazing product to get people to line up outside the showrooms these days. Duster, ecosport, amaze have proven it with less than satisfactory service experiences.

Bolt and zest are a fresh take on the brand.

I have high hopes from the synergies between JLR and TATA.

I Feel TATA has a goldmine in terms of land Rover platforms. They can offer a solid alternative at reasonable cost to Toyota Fortuner and the upcoming JEEPS, WRANGLERS from fiat.

In any industry the third generation products hit the sweet spot .

I expect the next generation of products from TATA to be competitive in the marketplace.
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Old 12th April 2014, 11:09   #44
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

All i can say is that money makes money.So if Tata wants to make good quality cars and wants them to sell them in good numbers they should be ready to spend on quality and later on in maintaining that quality.
Cost cutting/effectiveness in every area is not going to help one bit and only quality conscious management can make it turn around.
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Old 12th April 2014, 12:13   #45
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Default Re: Cyrus Mistry looks to turn around Tata Motors

It is very difficult to make out from the article, what exactly Tata Motors would be doing in the coming (it is more focused on the search for a head for TM).

But if Mistry believes, as reported in the article, that the launch of Zest and Bolt are going to be an 'inflexion point', then, in my opinion, he is grossly wrong. The launch will be just a small, albeit positive step, towards a long and arduous journey back. And that journey too will happen only if he identifies the actual weaknesses inside the company and do not go by the internal feedback, which will anyway be biased

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
Volumes Dear. Volumes!! ours is price sensitive market. Again our market hates cheap products. Eg: Nano.
Cost effectives is the result of achieving efficiency of scale - that means volumes. So you will be automatically cost effective if you have volumes

Quote:
A person with good taste is very much necessary to make good products. Person who is targeting just profits wont be able to fix a brand like Tata.
True for smaller companies in the early years of the evolution of the automobile where the 'visionaries' had to be hands-on like a Porsche or Lamborghini. But a visionary in the current times in large corporations should rather have more business acumen and make the right decisions


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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
Well put. Thanks.

However, my argument is directed more at the way certain deep truths (such as that Honda-s are a totally 'safe' bet while say Tata or Skoda are radically 'risky') develop too strongly in our market and too easily become ossified fetishes that take on a life of their own.

I know 'we Indians are like that only!' but still!
Your above argument against taking a blind extreme view point is true - but unfortunately all your earlier posts were taking the same extreme view point from the other side
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