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Old 9th April 2015, 21:03   #481
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
But as they say, different strokes for different folks.
To each, his own. If you consider the Scorpio in isolation, yes it has improved. Is it 'good' now? Nope. And you can call it preconceived whatever you want, but that doesn't change this fact. That would be a pointless debate - every iteration of this vehicle claims to have better suspension than before, so you really wonder when they will actually get it right.

As much as a flawed platform can improve on the original, one has also to give credit to the competition which started off with a better platform, and has not exactly been staying static since 1998 - the Storme may resemble the original, but assuming that its exactly the same mechanically is also not right. Everyone makes improvements - one should not assume that only one manufacturer makes these improvements over time.

The Fortuner - well, people may buy it for want of equally reliable (and re-sellable) options, but the fact is that its ride is bad (and the 3.0 diesel sounds agricultural). I have driven the vehicle in different parts of the world, and they are all consistently bad on the ride front. That's Toyota consistency for you.

Last edited by Steeroid : 9th April 2015 at 21:19.
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Old 9th April 2015, 21:23   #482
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
And you can call it preconceived whatever you want, but that doesn't change this fact. That would be a pointless debate - every iteration of this vehicle claims to have better suspension than before, so you really wonder when they will actually get it right.
The more things change, the more they remain the same, right.

Unsure as to when earlier did Mahindra have a hydroformed chassis or an independent coil spring suspension. And don't think Mahindra has claimed anything as yet.

But I would leave it at that.

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Old 10th April 2015, 11:21   #483
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

Not to be a party pooper here, but will the 400NM guise of the 2.2 be the very extent that this engine can be taken to? My thought process is explained below -
In India how good an engine is/isnt is determined by many as two factors
1 - Kitna Deti hai - what is the efficiency
2 - Kab khulti hai - How long before a full overhaul.

The 2.5 D4D engine, is considered by many as the king of point number 2. Often I have heard from people that it does 2-3 lakh kms before an overhaul is necessitated.
Now from a pure power perspective, this is underpowered for its size (so is the 3.0 litre in the Fortuner). Is this whats add to the 'reliability' and 'longetivity' of these engines. I mean, by keeping it well within its limits ensuring that it is not running at full power that can be extracted but building healthy margins.
Is Tata, in upping the power of this already well powered engine (2.2 320NM) straining at the edge of making this last not long enough (1 to 1.5 lakh kms) where it will be branded by the junta as not being a good enough motor?

What is important to understand is 80% of people will not use it for this long (for an engine to do that many kms) but the 20% who do, will influence the thoughts of the 75% who probably will never use it that much anyways.

Last edited by torquecurve : 10th April 2015 at 11:24.
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Old 10th April 2015, 12:09   #484
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by torquecurve View Post
Not to be a party pooper here, but will the 400NM guise of the 2.2 be the very extent that this engine can be taken to? My thought process is explained below -
In India how good an engine is/isnt is determined by many as two factors
1 - Kitna Deti hai - what is the efficiency
2 - Kab khulti hai - How long before a full overhaul.

The 2.5 D4D engine, is considered by many as the king of point number 2. Often I have heard from people that it does 2-3 lakh kms before an overhaul is necessitated.
Now from a pure power perspective, this is underpowered for its size (so is the 3.0 litre in the Fortuner). Is this whats add to the 'reliability' and 'longetivity' of these engines. I mean, by keeping it well within its limits ensuring that it is not running at full power that can be extracted but building healthy margins.
Is Tata, in upping the power of this already well powered engine (2.2 320NM) straining at the edge of making this last not long enough (1 to 1.5 lakh kms) where it will be branded by the junta as not being a good enough motor?

What is important to understand is 80% of people will not use it for this long (for an engine to do that many kms) but the 20% who do, will influence the thoughts of the 75% who probably will never use it that much anyways.

I am not sure if you read the previous pages, but there is a member who claims to have spotted a 2.2 liter 300 bhp engine in the Tata motor factory. If that is true, then 160bhp 400nm torque is pretty doable and stress free for this motor.
Also lot of people have been running the 2.2 using tuning boxes, which give out 400nm torque and up to 180bhp, and no one seems to be facing any engine reliability issues or trouble inspite of it being not a factory mod.
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Old 10th April 2015, 14:19   #485
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I am not sure if you read the previous pages, but there is a member who claims to have spotted a 2.2 liter 300 bhp engine in the Tata motor factory. If that is true, then 160bhp 400nm torque is pretty doable and stress free for this motor.
Also lot of people have been running the 2.2 using tuning boxes, which give out 400nm torque and up to 180bhp, and no one seems to be facing any engine reliability issues or trouble inspite of it being not a factory mod.
I think you mean 2.2 l 200 BHP engine. I can tell you for sure that there is no 2.2 300 BHP engine under test at ERC. There is a 3.0 L engine under test, but thats a different story (even that is 200 odd BHP- exact figures not known).
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Old 10th April 2015, 18:37   #486
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I am not sure if you read the previous pages, but there is a member who claims to have spotted a 2.2 liter 300 bhp engine in the Tata motor factory. If that is true, then 160bhp 400nm torque is pretty doable and stress free for this motor.
Also lot of people have been running the 2.2 using tuning boxes, which give out 400nm torque and up to 180bhp, and no one seems to be facing any engine reliability issues or trouble inspite of it being not a factory mod.
Again - I am not talking about reliability but longetivity in the hands of a person expecting it. I am talking about the mango man - the aam junta - the common man, who buys a car/vehicle based on what his peer group tells him, what he hears.

It is different from an enthusiast strapping on a Petes or DieselTronic box - where if it doesnt last the distance (I am talking 2 lakh kms) will not feel too offended because he probably doesnt expect it to last that long.The enthusiast will also probably maintain the vehicle better than the rest/or drive the wheels off, whichever case the above conjecture does not apply - irrespective we are minority.

An engine can generate even more power if need be - an analogy is the F1 engine which produces humongous amount of torque and power but doesnt last more than 1000 kms (two-three races) compared to a petrol powered 'ricer' car whose engine at max limit also lasts maybe 30-40 k, kms. Hope you get my drift here.

Even the D4D's have had failures - but most people you talk to will say '2 lakh kms no overhaul'. This aspect does affect buying decisions esp. for a person who is willing to plonk this side of a million bucks on this vehicle. All it takes is ONE guy on this forum who buys this to say, Guys, my engine is going for an overhaul after 1 lakh kms and in no time you will have at least 20 posts saying "I told you so" - and soon it becomes a Tata bashing thread
These same guys then during the water cooler discussion will say, the Safari engine was overhauled in less than 1 lakh kms and soon it becomes engraved in stone. Not a place a struggling manufacturer will like to be.

Note - I own a Tata and love it. Never let me down. This question comes from umpteen Storme Vs Innova Vs Aria Vs XUV discussions I have had with my friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
@torquecurve: I'm not qualified in engines. But I would think that the output, while it may take a toll on the drivetrain, tires and brakes, will not hurt the engine. In fact a higher output would mean better engine efficiency. The parts that make up the engine would affect the longevity. A higher RPM may affect it, but the absolute power or torque produced should not have an effect.
Precisely my point. I am referring to engine components. There will be challenges like heat dissipation, crankshaft life, so-on, which can make or break the engine. A clutch overhaul at 40,000 or even 60,000 will have people saying what I have pointed above.

Last edited by torquecurve : 10th April 2015 at 19:04. Reason: Edited post instead of posting a new one to respond
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Old 10th April 2015, 18:57   #487
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

@torquecurve: I'm not qualified in engines. But I would think that the output, while it may take a toll on the drivetrain, tires and brakes, will not hurt the engine. In fact a higher output would mean better engine efficiency. The parts that make up the engine would affect the longevity. A higher RPM may affect it, but the absolute power or torque produced should not have an effect.
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Old 11th April 2015, 07:42   #488
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by torquecurve View Post
Again - I am not talking about reliability but longetivity in the hands of a person expecting it. I am talking about the mango man - the aam junta - the common man, who buys a car/vehicle based on what his peer group tells him, what he hears.

It is different from an enthusiast strapping on a Petes or DieselTronic box - where if it doesnt last the distance (I am talking 2 lakh kms) will not feel too offended because he probably doesnt expect it to last that long.The enthusiast will also probably maintain the vehicle better than the rest/or drive the wheels off, whichever case the above conjecture does not apply - irrespective we are minority.

An engine can generate even more power if need be - an analogy is the F1 engine which produces humongous amount of torque and power but doesnt last more than 1000 kms (two-three races) compared to a petrol powered 'ricer' car whose engine at max limit also lasts maybe 30-40 k, kms. Hope you get my drift

Note - I own a Tata and love it. Never let me down. This question comes from umpteen Storme Vs Innova Vs Aria Vs XUV discussions I have had with my friends
Not sure if I understand your thoughts here. Are you saying a higher powered engine from Tata will not last long or are you speculating? Do you really think a car maker will release a engine not expecting it to last the given distance between overhauls? Is that why a 150000 kms 4 year warranty is given?

Do you know how many years of driving it takes to hit 2 lakh kms? Unless you are a cab driver, even then it takes around 2 years of constant running on an average. A personal car buyer who sells off his car every 5 years will never need to be worried about a engine failing during his ownership.

I find this ranting about perceived poor quality because of increased horsepower or torque even before the vehicle release pretty odd, sounds more like a I told you so post
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Old 11th April 2015, 11:40   #489
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

Sorry if I am taking this off-topic discussion on engine durability a little further ...

As regards what car manufacturers do, to prove out their engine designs (be they low tech / low output / low stress or high tech / high output / high stress), before putting them into production ... have a look at :

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-pow...ut-of-engines/

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....cle&ID=1260819

http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Artic...tyTesting.aspx

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-dr...durability.htm

I would guess that Indian OEMs would follow similar worst-case test protocols during their engine development process for all their engines, before signing them off for production.

Cheers,

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Old 13th April 2015, 12:58   #490
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

The interiors of the Tata Safari Storme facelift have been spied once again. The interiors in images are believed to belong to base variant of the SUV. There are no airbags and the covered storage space above the air-conditioner vents has gone. This variant also misses out on the 2-DIN audio system that has been seen the top-of-the-line variant and the silver finish panel on the centre console. The steering wheel is similar to that of the current Storme and not the Zest-like unit seen in previous images.

Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched-saf1.jpg

There is also an image that partially reveals the gear knob. This knob is not as premium-looking as the one we have seen in earlier pictures. The pattern on it suggests that the Safari Storme will get a dog-leg shift pattern instead of a conventional H shift pattern. Tata Motors has used a dog-leg pattern on the Tata Sierra and Estate in years gone by.

Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched-saf2.jpg

Images: Motor Octane
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Old 13th April 2015, 13:36   #491
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

If the above images are to be believed then we can all kiss good-bye to the 2-DIN audio system, the much awaited/ desired twin airbags, the 6-speed gearbox and God knows what else in at least the lower trim of the Storme. That also not even knowing that when the one with all the changes is going to be launched, if at all it is going to be launched.
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Old 13th April 2015, 16:30   #492
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

If the above images are true, the changes to the interiors are minimal and definitely not qualifying for something that can even be cause a facelift! We already know the exterior changes are minor and larger changes were expected on the engine / drivetrain and on the interiors! Disappointing on the interiors side atleast.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:25   #493
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Originally Posted by Strangerintown View Post
If the above images are true, the changes to the interiors are minimal and definitely not qualifying for something that can even be cause a facelift! We already know the exterior changes are minor and larger changes were expected on the engine / drivetrain and on the interiors! Disappointing on the interiors side atleast.
Interiors and power were the only saving grace we all were hoping for. If you are disappointed on the interiors side, you will be heartbroken seeing the exterior changes. If tata doesnt improve the bhp figures, God save this cult vehicle then.
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Old 13th April 2015, 18:30   #494
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

Pardon my ignorance, but the picture seens to show the current Storme. I'm unable to make out any difference. Can someone dissect the image please?
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Old 13th April 2015, 19:29   #495
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Default re: Scoop: Updated Tata Safari Storme in the offing? EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by Aditya View Post
The interiors of the Tata Safari Storme facelift have been spied once again. The interiors in images are believed to belong to base variant of the SUV. [/url]
Is it that they are trying to simplify and highlight all that has changed vis-a-vis the outgoing model?

Because it doesn't seem plausible that TML would be ridiculously foolish enough to release a facelift ONLY for the top-end variant.
(I know Bolt pricing was ridiculously foolish)... but if they do something like THIS ... then it will be curtains for them.
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