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Old 23rd May 2014, 15:38   #16
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I agree! I am looking for a new car in the D segment. Even though my friend suggested to take a look at the new Corolla Altis, it's 1364 cc Diesel engine made me think otherwise!
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Old 23rd May 2014, 17:01   #17
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I was looking at the new Corolla's interior pics and thinking the same thing. This looks so cheap. Especially the centre console and the abominable "carbon fibre". The carbon fibre stickers one can buy off Ebay looks better than that. The plastics too. Black turning grey already.

The Corolla interior seems to be getting cheaper with every generation. The first Corolla they brought to India had very good quality interiors, which came down a notch with the Altis. But same's the case with the Jetta.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 17:50   #18
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Toyota should shed its arrogance. Simple. Indians have come a long way in identifying what they really need and do not hesitate to give a thumbs down to even a international major if a product is not to their tastes. Toyota should have realized this by now.

For once, I feel, Toyota should stop blabbering their 'A' for apple 'Q' for quality lines and get their hands dirty in infusing some excitement into their line up.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 19:40   #19
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post

I am also aware that this isn't the same engine as the one offered in the first Corolla we saw on our shores. I meant that it hasn't been updated from the previous generation Corolla which it should have been, considering this is an all-new model.
Well with toyota, it's always step-motherly treatment for India.
Se the amount of tech the US cars have!

Skoda and VW that way are selling the same cars they sell in Europe.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 20:00   #20
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I am not sure if word suits the decorum of this discussion, but my answer is "Greed". Greed has made Toyota blind for India.
Innova, probably the biggest seller for Toyota in India ( sometimes, IIRC, even sales of Liva+Etios are less than sales of Innova ) is surely outdated, noisy and overall is less refined. Still Toyota is selling it at rather ridiculous price.
Fortuner does share a lot of parts with Innova, is priced even higher. Compare that with competition, and were it not for "reliable" tag, they would be wiped out.
Longevity is one part, I dont refute that, but its clear that the brand value does not sell well where competition is tough.

Liva and Etios failed, so did Corolla ( even with diesel heart ). Innova succeed where competition is less or has brand image problem and hence does not enter into that segment.

VFM and feel good factor is missing in all Toyota offerings as compared to others including Hyundai. Elantra has a better diesel motor, nice interiors with a great NVH package. Corolla ? That same old 1.4 diesel ? I mean, its a joke to sell 1.4 D segment car with price tag hitting the sky.

Toyota must now realize that competition is catching up and its brand image wont let it win for long. I feel that toyota is rather misguided or bewildered by competition in all segments.
Treat Indian customer as good as Suzuki and Hyundai do, and see the wonder. Ignore and your lack of vision for India beyond margins seems absent.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 23rd May 2014 at 20:03.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 20:28   #21
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit insensitive (from the consumer's perspective) but if a company is cashing in for a reliable product, what's the harm?

They know Innovas are going to sell, so why upgrade them? The demand for Fortuner is such that unless a bigger more macho SUV is out (even if at ~30 lakhs) it would continue to set sales chart on fire.

The profit margin on the Fortuner would be incredible and if that is because they can use the Innova dashboard in a 25+ lakh rupee car then why not.

We might say that Toyoto doesn't have the foresight and unless they upgrade their existing models they'd lose out to competition in the long run but that's yet to be seen. It'd really take something to beat the Fortuner and Innova. And even if that happens, I'm certain they'd come out with another winner.

We have a problem if Mahindra sells XUV 5OO with electronics that it can't handle and we also have a problem with Fortuner which has less complexity and sober dashboard.

What we want as a customer is a Fortuner with XUV 5OO kind of gizmos (reliable of course), Audi Q3 dashboard which sells at the price of a Scorpio.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 21:14   #22
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Originally Posted by dean5545 View Post
Lets look at what TOYOTA has to offer to the European nations as well as America.
-The same Corolla but with 4 more airbags and esp and an NCAP rating of 5 which the Indian auto-journalist are boasting about.
-The Highlander a fantastic successor to the Innova,look at the amount of space it offers

-A fun-filled flat 4 cylinder rear wheel drive GT 86.

-A strong Jeep built on the proven FJ40 land Cruiser, which even if is a bit costly will be bought eyes closed not because of reliability but because of what it has to offer.

I don't think the problem is with Toyota but with Toyota Kirloskar Motors. Don't know for how long the top management has been there. But they surely need to go for a change to be brought in TKM.
I agree on some of the points you mentioned - and I really think it is a TKM issue rather than a Toyota issue. Toyota should have got the fully safety specced Corolla to India and should have made the interiors look classier than the carbon fiber suggests. I wonder what kind of customer feedback groups are ever considered while determining the features and content in India! It almost seems that the whole thing is decided arbitrarily.

That said - on the cars you really think Toyota should sell in India - the Highlander is priced about twice the Corolla in the US - we just bought one about a month back. I don't think they will ever be able to replace the Innova with the Highlander in India. That will not work! It would be priced as much as the Landcruiser Prado which would mean it will sell in very limited quantity (and not the thousands like Innova). Same applies to the GT86 and the FJ Cruiser - they are 25000 to 30000 USD cars - which means the market will be very small that Toyota will see no reason to take the expenses of bringing those to the market in India.

Nevertheless, we definitely expected better from Toyota on the Corolla at least. Isn't there a 2.0 D that they have on the Innova that could be used in the Corolla? Why the 1.4 D - tax benefits?
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Old 23rd May 2014, 23:59   #23
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I have driven in Etios cabs, and spoken to their drivers.

Styling, inside and out, is debatable (e.g., i find the Verna and Elantra vulgar if not ugly) so I won't go there.

But I have to say the Etios, and I believe GTO says something similar too in his review comments on it, seems pretty darn good in ride, handling, torque, braking and comfort, for the money and the space. Sure the plastics and the NVH in the Manza make it, and will make the Zest, the best value but still, IMO we are being too harsh to Toyota's made-for-India efforts: the Etios and Liva. We have too much of a 'joh jeeta voh sikander', what-sells-is-good mentality in the Indian car market.

Just because we do not like their looks and interiors does not mean Toyota has scant regard or respect for the Indian market/car buyer. They've committed to transforming the styling of the Etios and Liva in a year (or two?), and then they'll be a hit I am sure.

But: the prices they expect, and sadly, recieve, for the Innova and Fortuner are almost obscene. Who's fault is that?
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Old 24th May 2014, 07:13   #24
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

My friend (and colleague) is changing his 6 year old Civic. He has all but finalised the new Corolla AT version. We went to take a look at the vehicle at the showroom at Kundanoor yesterday but were told that the company's instruction was not to display it at the moment. However we were taken to the yard at the back and got to take a look at the car from outside. While I have no complaints about the looks, I would agree about the 'non-offer' of kit like 6 airbags even on the top variant (which will cost 20 lacs or so on road).
But the Toyota reliability pull being what it is, my friend was just not interested in my suggestion to take look at the Jetta and Octavia on the way back. He is paranoid about the maintenance costs and service.
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Old 24th May 2014, 07:43   #25
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That's probably a big draw, isn't it? You will find so many Qualis jeeps still being used with only routine maintenance required, and the same is the case with the Innova. The higher price is for the assurance that year after year the vehicle will be as good as it was when bought new. This means the ride comfort, NVH levels, functioning of all the parts etc. Nothing wrong in charging a premium for it. And also nothing wrong in NOT introducing newer and latest features which might compromise or upset the long term reliability.
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Old 24th May 2014, 08:13   #26
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Toyota is playing fair enough IMO.

A simple logic that they would be using is

" If it ain't broke; why fix it! "

I find this rule applicable in most of the cars from Toyota. Be it Innova, Fortuner, Corolla Altis - all being costlier than competition with lesser gizmos on offer but still sell much better with consistent figures than competition.


Reliability, T.A.S.S, ease of maintenance, customer satisfaction, the word of mouth, brand value + loyalty all build up positives for Toyota. I am not saying that Toyota is doing right by sacrificing features vis-a-vis OTR but I don't find a harm in this.

The Innova and Fortuner are the costliest in their respective segment but people are still buying it even after knowing it offers less features with respect to competition that gives more at a lesser price. If the customer shy's away from these cars and goes in for others, then Toyota will realise and reduce prices but I don't think this is going to happen in any time future. So,

Who is to be blamed here? The customer or Toyota?

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Old 24th May 2014, 08:34   #27
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Default What is Toyota playing?

Originally Posted by vineethvazhayil View Post
Nevertheless, we definitely expected better from Toyota on the Corolla at least. Isn't there a 2.0 D that they have on the Innova that could be used in the Corolla? Why the 1.4 D - tax benefits?
The Corolla will not qualify for tax benefits with the 1.4 D. The car should be less than 4 meters for the tax benefit. Not sure if Toyota has a 2 litre engine? They would struggle to put the innova's 2.4 in the much lighter car. There could be a weight issue and probably the Innova engine is not refined enough for the Corrola. What diesel power plant are they selling in other markets?

Couldn't agree more,the interiors are no where close to good and the slab - like dash board looks straight out of my grandfather's Wolsely(probably a 1960 model)

The music system looks extremely after market and looks highly reflective.

No rear AC vents. Shockked.

Must say they have got the interior space,the 180 mm ground clearence and to some extent the exteriors right. The Corolla will appeal to the chauffeur driven and given the reliability of the Toyota, should straight take them to atleast 400 cars a month.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 24th May 2014 at 09:06. Reason: fixing the quote tags.
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Old 24th May 2014, 09:16   #28
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The A/C vents and clock looks a straight lift from Qualis. Any qualis owner can confirm that.

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Old 24th May 2014, 09:45   #29
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To all those criticising Toyota for using the same parts in both Innova and Fortuner. Please have a look at the BMW Line up. They all are the same inside especially the dashboard layout and the gear selector. And it's not only Toyota and BMW it will be like that in many major brands. It's known as standardisation. In the coming years more and more effort will be put to bring in standardisation as it is highly recommended to have an effective production run.
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Old 24th May 2014, 09:53   #30
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Toyota is a very experienced manufacturer here in India. However, their recent game plan, has left me wondering if they know what they are doing here.

Their announcement of the 11th gen Corolla has had several of us pushing away our car buying decisions and with bookings finally open we knowledgeable enthusiasts really be enthusiastic about this?
Ishaan, I did my summer training 5 years back with a Toyota Dealer in Delhi and was given good insights about how Toyota works upon strengthening their quality aspect viz-a-viz improve the overall appeal of the car. At that time the new Toyota Land Cruiser was launched and I had the opportunity to see their workmanship and just like you even I was not convinced with it considering the reputation of Toyota.

The pics shown by you specially the one that shows the door pad and carbon vinyl, I feel if Toyota is going with such inferior quality job then it's better that the future owners should go for European/ Korean brands because having a Fluidic Verna in my family I can vouch for it's superb interior design quality and material used.

Toyota needs to realize that the customer base here in India is now better informed and their tastes pertaining to cars have improved/ changed manifolds. Hence, Toyota should plan their product's design and quality accordingly for this part of the world.


OT: Very well narrated topic and useful information.
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