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Old 24th May 2014, 10:06   #31
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I find nothing wrong in Toyota's approach. They are known for cars which are not flashy, are not gizmo-centric. Their emphasis is on rock-solid reliability and real cheap maintenance. Some customers actually prefer it this way.
As for two of Toyota India's cars, Etios and Liva, not reaching the expected sales figure, similar situation happens to any car manufacturer. I don't want to name how many market duds Maruti-Suzuki produced in India, despite knowing the market too well for so long.
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Old 24th May 2014, 10:12   #32
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Originally Posted by dean5545 View Post
To all those criticising Toyota for using the same parts in both Innova and Fortuner. Please have a look at the BMW Line up. It's known as standardisation. In the coming years more and more effort will be put to bring in standardisation as it is highly recommended to have an effective production run.
I guess your forgetting Maruti Suzuki.

This standardisation started with the Swift and now I can see parts sharing with Dzire, Ertiga on a larger scale and the rest of the portfolio have something or the other common with Swift.

I don't think it is wrong but helps in reducing costs to a larger extent and not that anyone is complaining to have a similar looking dashboard.

Honda too is in line with Brio to Amaze and now the Mobilio.

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Old 24th May 2014, 14:31   #33
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
" If it ain't broke; why fix it! "

I find this rule applicable in most of the cars from Toyota. Be it Innova, Fortuner, Corolla Altis - all being costlier than competition with lesser gizmos on offer but still sell much better with consistent figures than competition.
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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
I find nothing wrong in Toyota's approach. They are known for cars which are not flashy, are not gizmo-centric. Their emphasis is on rock-solid reliability and real cheap maintenance. Some customers actually prefer it this way.
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Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit insensitive (from the consumer's perspective) but if a company is cashing in for a reliable product, what's the harm?

We might say that Toyoto doesn't have the foresight and unless they upgrade their existing models they'd lose out to competition in the long run but that's yet to be seen. It'd really take something to beat the Fortuner and Innova. And even if that happens, I'm certain they'd come out with another winner.
Fact of the matter here guys, is that the "if it aint broke why fix it" model, is not going to work for any longer. People aren't "buying it". The company is still making money here no doubt, however sales trends indicate that interest in their cars has decreased. The only model currently posting consistently high figures, is the Fortuner. The Innova still sells well but compare its sales to even a year ago. In 2013, the Innova sold 6-8 thousand units each month however, in these past two quarters in 2014 the car has managed to find only 3-4 thousand buyers each month. This ought to be raising alarm bells considering the fact that the company sold more units of the Qualis in its final months in the market. Same is the case with the Corolla, how often do you see a Corolla on the streets with temporary registration plates? Even after the release of the diesel motor, not many buy the car.

No one (atleast not me) loathes the company. As I have stated before, I am merely interested in gathering the insights of members more in-tune with the industry, to help me understand if the company has a plan. Which they ought to as I have demonstrated above. Or if the company is actually not doing anything about it.

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Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
What we want as a customer is a Fortuner with XUV 5OO kind of gizmos (reliable of course), Audi Q3 dashboard which sells at the price of a Scorpio.
No one here is saying that. If they did, none of us would be buying the XUV 500, or the Honda City etc.

The very fact that our forum has a Fortuner vs XUV 500 thread, with near 50:50 votes, ought to embarrass me if my 30 lakh offering, was being compared to and wasn't seen as a clear winner against a much cheaper Indian SUV with multiple faults in its model's history. No?

Considering other Japanese and Korean brands are offering solid reliability, and a whole lot more, is it really in Toyota's best interest not to expand its outlook?

Last edited by IshaanIan : 24th May 2014 at 14:41.
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Old 24th May 2014, 22:03   #34
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

That interior is really really poor. I own a new City and its interiors are far superior. The city is also 4-5 Lakhs cheaper.
I would like to meet that Idiot who put that clock in the Dash? Its been carried over from generation to generation of the Corolla but I'm sure they could have redesigned to look modern/sophisticated !! Its almost like an official from the Government of Japan forced Toyota to award a 'relative' a contract to make these clocks and Toyota has been asked/forced by the government to buy them from the Vendor.
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Old 24th May 2014, 22:37   #35
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Guys, too many of the posts here are based on misleading pics of the new Corolla's interiors. I have seen and sat in the new Corolla (it was on display at the airport two months ago).

The interior design and layout maybe debatable (I quite liked it, slightly retro, which is good!) but the materials are not. Very high 'perceived' quality levels, GOOD, soft touch plastics, subtle variations of colour and texture, mature and not garish.

I felt it was almost as good as the new Octavia on the inside. Clearly much superior to the new Honda City or the Verna, much more tasteful overall than the Elantra, IMO. So I am bewildered at the hostility towards it here.

Of course, if the prices are exorbitant like with the Innova and Fortuner...
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Old 24th May 2014, 22:46   #36
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I just had a look at the toyota.com website, and am amazed how basic it could have been. The eliteford.co.in looked a little better in my opinion.
When was the last time something interesting came from the Toyota fare? The Prius?
That was my topic of seminar in my 5th sem way back in 2003, taken from an old Overdrive book that I had stored since 1999. (And the Prius has been selling from 1997)
That got me excited then, but we are in 2014 now, and Toyota has failed to excite us all the same way they did then.

I guess, globally, Ford, BMW, Merc, VW etc have all had a revolution of sorts since Toyota's hay days. Is it not true to say that the other world has had a sustained or a revolutionary shift, as compared to Japan?

Maybe this is a very generic statement. There is Nissan and all the other Motorcycle brands from Japan that still have done well.
But, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Mazda have all gone on the wane I believe.
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Old 24th May 2014, 23:06   #37
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
As for two of Toyota India's cars, Etios and Liva, not reaching the expected sales figure, similar situation happens to any car manufacturer. I don't want to name how many market duds Maruti-Suzuki produced in India, despite knowing the market too well for so long.
Subrata, If my memory serves me well then Maruti Suzuki has only 2 market duds so far i.e Kizashi and the Grand Vitara (to some extent) as both were not able to attract customers majorly due to presence of vast number of choices at a better price point. Except them I don't find any other dud.

As far as Etios (Sedan) is concerned, right from the 1st gen model there have been factors like awfully placed speedometer console, AC vents and the integrated headrests (in 1 gen model) apart from certain technical specs which proved below par compared to other options of the segment. All these factors have been instrumental in it's downfall in the private and commercial customer base. I believe that building a car with less number of gadgets does not mean a reputed brand can compromise on designing/ finishing of the product and even reliability does not have any bearing with compromised or poorly finished end product.

The life cycle of a car model in the auto industry is expected to be 7-8 years (as believed by our member mod GTO too) so Etios could not even meet that and Toyota launched a face-lifted version which too did not create the much needed buzz because in the end it was the same old car presented in a new packing.

As I suggested in my earlier post here that Toyota should give more importance to customer's choice and views rather than what they feel is right. Toyota has a very limited range till now for the Indian market and they just bank upon their past laurels like Innova and Fortuner. However, as pointed out earlier if Toyota does not re-work it's plans then it might as well find it difficult to bear the rising competition.

I have used the 1st gen Etios cab in the recent past and have found it really inferior in terms of interior designing as compared to it's competitors. Had Toyota known the trend of Indian market then surely would not have come out with below par designed 1st gen Etios or even with the new gen Corolla.

I mean is it worth spending 15-18 lakhs on a car whose appeal is questionable and at a lower price a better option can be availed ?

Thanks

Last edited by ad3952n : 24th May 2014 at 23:27. Reason: spelling
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Old 25th May 2014, 00:59   #38
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Fact of the matter here guys, is that the "if it aint broke why fix it" model, is not going to work for any longer. People aren't "buying it". The company is still making money here no doubt, however sales trends indicate that interest in their cars has decreased. The only model currently posting consistently high figures, is the Fortuner. The Innova still sells well but compare its sales to even a year ago. In 2013, the Innova sold 6-8 thousand units each month however, in these past two quarters in 2014 the car has managed to find only 3-4 thousand buyers each month. This ought to be raising alarm bells considering the fact that the company sold more units of the Qualis in its final months in the market. Same is the case with the Corolla, how often do you see a Corolla on the streets with temporary registration plates? Even after the release of the diesel motor, not many buy the car.

No one (atleast not me) loathes the company. As I have stated before, I am merely interested in gathering the insights of members more in-tune with the industry, to help me understand if the company has a plan. Which they ought to as I have demonstrated above. Or if the company is actually not doing anything about it.



No one here is saying that. If they did, none of us would be buying the XUV 500, or the Honda City etc.

The very fact that our forum has a Fortuner vs XUV 500 thread, with near 50:50 votes, ought to embarrass me if my 30 lakh offering, was being compared to and wasn't seen as a clear winner against a much cheaper Indian SUV with multiple faults in its model's history. No?

Considering other Japanese and Korean brands are offering solid reliability, and a whole lot more, is it really in Toyota's best interest not to expand its outlook?
Now, here is a point to consider. Selling cars in India is a different ballgame than selling, say, Coke. That is because of the market and the market's capability to grab a product. For example, a bottle of Coke sells in India for approximately Rs 10, while the same bottle costs about Euro 1.50 in Europe in a roadside shop. Converted to rupee, a bottle of Coke sells for Rs 120 in Europe. Now, for that money a bottle of coke doesn't work out economically viable in India.

If a product is mass produced in India and you can bring the cost down, only then it works out fine in Indian market. Otherwise no. While we lament about Toyota not shelling out all its products in India, we have to keep this in mind -- at what cost? And who is the buyer? Not only Toyota, similar thing happens to other car manufacturers in India too. How may of them, including Honda, Renault, VW, Skoda, Ford, Chevrolet, have all their products aimed at Indian market? The Euro/Dollar to rupee conversion ratio simply doesn't work out to appeal and go whole-hog in the Indian car market. As GTO pointed out in a post in some other thread (will try to find out the link) that Toyota is simply not interested in the Indian car scenario, excepting just to have a presence. That's cool for them. In any case, India is not their bread and butter unlike Maruti-Suzuki, which is essentially an Indian car brand, which also sells nominally in a few other countries.

Unlike Coke and like Toyota, a few companies maintain similar strategy vis-a-vis India. One of them is Apple. And a few people like me, who have to use an Apple computer, still use them because as a prosumer we don't have any other choice. And we pay through our nose. Unforunately, the Apple strategy for their computers has also been extended to their phones and pads. And therefore an iphone which sells at $199 internationally is sold at Rs 46,000/- here. We can only crib, move to Samsung and do nothing about it, right? Apple is not bothered. I think Toyota has a similar mindset.

As I understand, at this moment Toyota and Apple might change their mindset only if one dollar costs Rs 10/-. For this, our appeal should be to the new Government and not to Toyota (or Apple).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Subrata, If my memory serves me well then Maruti Suzuki has only 2 market duds so far i.e Kizashi and the Grand Vitara (to some extent) as both were not able to attract customers majorly due to presence of vast number of choices at a better price point. Except them I don't find any other dud.
Well, not memory, just figures. The last one year figures available in T-BHP (thankfully T-BHP provides the figures) show many models (besides Kizashi and Grand Vitara) from Maruti-Suzuki consistently selling lesser in number than Etios. Just figures, not perception or memory. And the models are: A-star, Ritz, Zen Estillo, SX4 and Eeco. So, if Etios is a market dud, how come they are not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
As far as Etios (Sedan) is concerned, right from the 1st gen model there have been factors like awfully placed speedometer console, AC vents and the integrated headrests (in 1 gen model) apart from certain technical specs which proved below par compared to other options of the segment. All these factors have been instrumental in it's downfall in the private and commercial customer base. I believe that building a car with less number of gadgets does not mean a reputed brand can compromise on designing/ finishing of the product and even reliability does not have any bearing with compromised or poorly finished end product.
Would like to know the technical specs which proved below par compared to other options.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Toyota has a very limited range till now for the Indian market and they just bank upon their past laurels like Innova and Fortuner. However, as pointed out earlier if Toyota does not re-work it's plans then it might as well find it difficult to bear the rising competition.
Yes of course you are right in a way. But as I mentioned earlier that it's not always true that Apples would like themselves to be compared to oranges or Androids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
I have used the 1st gen Etios cab in the recent past and have found it really inferior in terms of interior designing as compared to it's competitors.
Well, you are comparing an Etios Cab to which cab in India? Amby? Fiat? Tata? Maruti Dzire (well, no offence meant to Maruti enthisiasts, there are lots of them in Kolkata, and I am yet to find an Etios)? Amby has better leg space and the rear seat is a sofa (I like that very much) but it loses out on AC. The rest?

In Germany where I have extensively travelled, every second cab is a Merc and, well, I agree that the 1st gen Etios loses out. But not really in India. :P

Last edited by subratasenn : 25th May 2014 at 01:16.
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Old 25th May 2014, 02:56   #39
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

I guess I am going against the tide here but our family recently picked up an Etios, we had a Liva before. Plus a close family member just picked up a Camry Hybrid, and I recommended a Corolla to my boss!
So Why?
- Superb Ride and rear seat comfort is best-in-class: Important for the chauffeur driven
- Spartan interiors, but quality in terms of fit. I recently drove the 45Kkm abused Liva, and the car didn't rattle quarter as much as my 25Kkm relatively well driven roads.
- Reliable nature - way more than a Skoda or any other non-jap brand
- Easy to live with: service costs, parts affordability, efficiency (I waited weeks for the door rubber lining on our Octavia)
- Tough: Judging by the Liva, it is surprising how much abuse these cars can tolerate without a fuss!

Sure, at the end of the day we did lose out on safety, but at the same time, what were the alternatives? For people who spend most of their drives in the back seat returning from office, stuck in city traffic, these cars are perfect!
Do note: the choices might have been different if long distance high speed highways were involved
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Old 25th May 2014, 08:23   #40
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
As I understand, at this moment Toyota and Apple might change their mindset only if one dollar costs Rs 10/-. For this, our appeal should be to the new Government and not to Toyota (or Apple).

Well, not memory, just figures. The last one year figures available in T-BHP (thankfully T-BHP provides the figures) show many models (besides Kizashi and Grand Vitara) from Maruti-Suzuki consistently selling lesser in number than Etios. Just figures, not perception or memory. And the models are: A-star, Ritz, Zen Estillo, SX4 and Eeco. So, if Etios is a market dud, how come they are not?
Interesting point of view. I suppose you are correct. It is weid however, when everyone else is identifying India as a key market, Toyota is simply unwilling to milk this cow.

Well actually, quite a few of those cars released by Maruti have done well in their respective periods of sale. The Ritz was a quirky looking yet practical alternative to the 1st gen Swift and it sold pretty well, it is simply outdated today when we have the new Swift. The SX4 was also very popular back in its day, competition just grew newer. When it was first released, I remember seeing loads of Zen Estilos on the road and wondering why it was popular, then Maruti updated the Wagon R, then did so again, then again and now it simply makes no sense to buy an Estilo. Yes the A-Star and Eeco are market duds however the successor to the A-Star, the Celerio, is doing impressively well.
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Old 25th May 2014, 09:03   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Subrata, If my memory serves me well then Maruti Suzuki has only 2 market duds so far i.e Kizashi and the Grand Vitara (to some extent) as both were not able to attract customers majorly due to presence of vast number of choices at a better price point. Except them I don't find any other dud.
Hope you are not forgetting these cars:
  • Zen Estilo
  • WagonR Stingray
  • Eeco/Versa
  • Kizashi
  • Grand Vitara
  • Baleno Altura

SX4 initially did not pick up well but after the update and with the addition of the DDiS engine it did sell until its last days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
The life cycle of a car model in the auto industry is expected to be 7-8 years (as believed by our member mod GTO too) so Etios could not even meet that and Toyota launched a face-lifted version which too did not create the much needed buzz because in the end it was the same old car presented in a new packing.
Once the image of a poor looking car is fixed into the public minds then no matter what refresh is given the car will not sell. If it clicks initially it will sell unless the refresh given has something serious addition (mechanically and looks wise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
As I suggested in my earlier post here that Toyota should give more importance to customer's choice and views rather than what they feel is right. Toyota has a very limited range till now for the Indian market and they just bank upon their past laurels like Innova and Fortuner. However, as pointed out earlier if Toyota does not re-work it's plans then it might as well find it difficult to bear the rising competition.
Agree on the range of cars Toyota has in the market and seeing its presence elsewhere in other countries no idea why they are not interested in competing with the giants (Maruti Suzuki & Hyundai).

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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
I have used the 1st gen Etios cab in the recent past and have found it really inferior in terms of interior designing as compared to it's competitors.
Comparing with which cab?

Indicab?
Dzire Tour?
Fiesta Classic? (Yes, the new trend here in Hyderabad)
WagonR CNG?
Indigo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post

- Easy to live with: service costs, parts affordability, efficiency (I waited weeks for the door rubber lining on our Octavia)

- Tough: Judging by the Liva, it is surprising how much abuse these cars can tolerate without a fuss!
This is where Toyota and their products excel even with different looking interiors but their cars do the job without a fuss.

Anurag.
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Old 25th May 2014, 09:11   #42
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post

Well, you are comparing an Etios Cab to which cab in India? Amby? Fiat? Tata? Maruti Dzire (well, no offence meant to Maruti enthisiasts, there are lots of them in Kolkata, and I am yet to find an Etios)? Amby has better leg space and the rear seat is a sofa (I like that very much) but it loses out on AC. The rest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Comparing with which cab?

Indicab?
Dzire Tour?
Fiesta Classic? (Yes, the new trend here in Hyderabad)
WagonR CNG?
Indigo?
Folks, I am comparing it to Dzire (normal one which is used with T-permit), Indigo XL and to Accent. All of them feel more superior in terms of refined interior designs.

Thanks
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Old 25th May 2014, 11:25   #43
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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Folks, I am comparing it to Dzire (normal one which is used with T-permit), Indigo XL and to Accent. All of them feel more superior in terms of refined interior designs.

Thanks
Well, perceptions differ. I have always found Dzire too cramped and there's less luggage room. According to me, the only cab comparable to Etios is Mahindra Logan, which I had used once in Chennai airport.
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Old 25th May 2014, 11:50   #44
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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Interesting point of view. I suppose you are correct. It is weid however, when everyone else is identifying India as a key market, Toyota is simply unwilling to milk this cow.
If you look at it properly you will come to know that India doesn't have the volume requirement which Toyota is looking for.
Just have a look at the sales figures of Toyota in US,UK and UAE you will get your answer. If you and I were in the same situation I think we too would have done the same thing what Toyota is doing.

Toyota sold 1,86,000+ units in the month of March in the U.S.A(including Lexus and Scion).link

Toyota will never get the volumes they are expecting to sell in India.
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Old 25th May 2014, 11:52   #45
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From the day they entered India with a 30 year old hearse for sale, Toyota have been running on brand value and reliability alone. No one has ever accused Toyota India of making cars that are fun to drive, and there were always better driver's cars on offer from other manufacturers. The Qualis sold because it was a reliable Taxi. The Innova sells because it's a reliable Taxi, and also because it looks and feels more car-ish than others in the segment. Evocative designs were never Toyota's strong point. Look what they've done with the new Landcruiser, the Prado, the Altis, Camry, Innova, heck, all their latest designs! They have decided that Bling is the way forward when people have begun to get tired of Bling.

I think that the latest Innova facelift has really turned off a lot of buyers who were looking at it for personal use. I think that the Gen II Innova design was the best of them all, but the latest facelift (or rather, face-melt) makes me wish for the previous one. In fact, I know people who specifically asked for the pre-facemelt version that they had in the yard than the latest one.

IMHO, the only car that looks good in the current Toyota line-up is the new Camry, and that too, only from certain angles. They need to re-evaluate their priorities and leave the bling to Hyundai and go back to making mature designs with solid execution.
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