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Old 26th May 2014, 17:15   #61
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Now that it's clear that this thread is not only about the Altis, Let's take a look at the numbers from toyota.

First their runaway successes. The Innova and the Fortuner. The Innova now in it's 10th year now I think still sells a whooping 4000 cars monthly average.

Then the Camry. A 30 L petrol sedan with only 2 airbags and load of other features missing sells around 40 cars a month. Not great numbers but the Superb with Petrol and diesel and a truck load of more features sells around 100 monthly. The Passat had to be withdrawn and so did the Accord but the Camry still remains.

The Altis has been selling reasonably since launch. If you go back to 2008 you will see that when the current Altis was launched in 2008, the first month 3,400 units were sold. Ever since then there has been a decline and now the car is in it's 6th year which sort of explains the slump being outdated vs the competition. It never sold poorly just went down as it got older. In comparison Honda had to discontinue the Civic.
I have never said that they are making losses. They are still profitable BUT if you read all my posts on this thread, you will find that I have wanted to dig deeper not just scratch the surface and come back with this month's sales and the fact that they are still "good" numbers. So here goes once again:

While the Innova sells 3-4 thousand units a month, it used to sell 6-8 thousand just a year ago. That is a huge drop in sales (about half in less than a year's span). The Innova's predecessor sold strong till its death infact it sold higher numbers during it's final days before they pulled it out of showrooms. So this would definitely be a new trend no?

The Camry sold 268 units in the last 6 months while the Superb did a cool 612. The Superb is a less reliable car, sold by a company with an infamous reputation here in India and is twice the age of the Camry. 10 years ago, whether the competition had more features, power, better styling etc. would never shake Toyota from selling more units.

The Corolla used to rule the roost but then the Civic came, then the Cruze, then the Elantra, gosh I wonder if the updates it has received, are enough to push it to the top once more. Do you?

As for the Fortuner, yes I agree it sells exceptionally well. More than it deserves. BUT it would embarrass me to see a thread where my 30lakh product is being compared to an unproven product, something roughly half the price, made by an Indian brand, with known issues in the products history (the XUV 500) on an automotive forum as formidable as this. It would embarrass me even further, to see that my product is not seen as a clear winner securing only around 50% of the votes.

Sure, the company is still making money, but it takes more to steer a company to the top, securing it a strong future and an un-unshakable name, than being satisfied with where I am right now, knowing that I am turning profits and ignoring these future-profit-worrying trends that are developing before my very own eyes. Instead of only comparing total numbers to other competitors, I would also compare figures, percentages, and graphs in more detail, with my company's own numbers in it's past. I would also take market opinions quite seriously. I for example, never had issues with Toyota's ethos being simply quality and reliability, but now, I think they are pushing their luck on that, too far. Just like Hyundai in the recent years has learnt that selling products that are merely cheaper than the rest, isn't enough, or like Maruti has understood that offering good after sales service is not enough. Toyota, I still believe, needs to change

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
Just saw the Autocar review and it occurred to me that from a 1.8 petrol engine the Corolla develops about the same amount of torque as the Vento TSI does from a 1.2!
You are comparing a normally aspirated unit to a turbocharged one mate

Last edited by IshaanIan : 26th May 2014 at 17:38.
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Old 26th May 2014, 20:50   #62
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
While the Innova sells 3-4 thousand units a month, it used to sell 6-8 thousand just a year ago. That is a huge drop in sales (about half in less than a year's span). The Innova's predecessor sold strong till its death infact it sold higher numbers during it's final days before they pulled it out of showrooms. So this would definitely be a new trend no?
It's a 10 year old car so numbers falling from 6-8K to 3-4K is expected and Toyota has increased the prices as well. Do you know the Innova was launched with a starting price of 5.75lakhs and now the cheapest one is 9.4lakhs. With the top end one at 15 lakhs ex showroom. Imagine the margins then. Also I checked the sales numbers for more than 1 year back and I see 6K and 8K only as spikes due to year ending and diwali month else it is around 4-5k.

Toyota India can't do anything as the car is at the end of the life cycle and have to wait for the new Innova in Thailand to come out in 2015.

Quote:
The Camry sold 268 units in the last 6 months while the Superb did a cool 612. The Superb is a less reliable car, sold by a company with an infamous reputation here in India and is twice the age of the Camry. 10 years ago, whether the competition had more features, power, better styling etc. would never shake Toyota from selling more units.
The Camry has just one petrol variant and no diesel anywhere in the world. The Camry is ridiculously priced at 25L ex showroom whereas you can get the Skoda from 18.6lakhs with the top end diesel maxing out at 24.8L.

Even with the ridiculous pricing and petrol only option it's a wonder they have 268 cars sold till now.

Ideally they should have a lower trim 2.0 engine variant like Thailand and have the 2.5 as the top end trim. Right now the 2.5 is bare bones basic with only 2 airbags and a bunch of other stuff missing but priced sky high. This is complete stupidity from Toyota.

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The Corolla used to rule the roost but then the Civic came, then the Cruze, then the Elantra, gosh I wonder if the updates it has received, are enough to push it to the top once more. Do you?
The old corolla used to rule the roost till 2006. Then the Civic came out. For 2 years Toyota struggled with the Corolla. Finally in 2008, the new Altis came out. It was all downhill after that for the Civic. The Altis diesel only sealed the Civic's fate.

In 2012 Toyota launched an updated Altis with new petrol engine and a 7 speed CVT box which helped sales again. But the Altis was beginning to show it's age with the Elantra and new gen C2 cars like Vento and fluidic Verna.

Since the past few years every manufacturer has struggled in the D1 segment not just the Altis. In 2008 the Altis got 3400 sales on launch. Look at the Elantra or Skoda octavia launch numbers and they aren't even at 4 digits only a few hundreds. The reality is this segment has shrunk and there's nothing Toyota can do about it as all the action has shifted to the C2 segment where Toyota has no presence.

The Vios is aimed at the City in Thailand but take a close look at it and you know it won't cut it for India vs the Verna, City, Vento and Rapid.


Quote:
As for the Fortuner, yes I agree it sells exceptionally well. More than it deserves. BUT it would embarrass me to see a thread where my 30lakh product is being compared to an unproven product, something roughly half the price, made by an Indian brand, with known issues in the products history (the XUV 500) on an automotive forum as formidable as this. It would embarrass me even further, to see that my product is not seen as a clear winner securing only around 50% of the votes.
Yes but team-BHP buyers who are enthusiastic and educated on cars account for a miniscule % of sales in reality. Fiat and Ford are praised here for fun to drive cars. The Fiesta and Linea sell in double digits in reality. There's no embarrassment in being the best selling SUV in the 30lakhs segment for 5 years running.

Quote:
Sure, the company is still making money, but it takes more to steer a company to the top, securing it a strong future and an un-unshakable name, than being satisfied with where I am right now, knowing that I am turning profits and ignoring these future-profit-worrying trends that are developing before my very own eyes. Instead of only comparing total numbers to other competitors, I would also compare figures, percentages, and graphs in more detail, with my company's own numbers in it's past. I would also take market opinions quite seriously. I for example, never had issues with Toyota's ethos being simply quality and reliability, but now, I think they are pushing their luck on that, too far. Just like Hyundai in the recent years has learnt that selling products that are merely cheaper than the rest, isn't enough, or like Maruti has understood that offering good after sales service is not enough. Toyota, I still believe, needs to change
Do you think Toyota is looking at Maruti or Hyundai? With the portfolio of cars they have worldwide they can never come close to Maruti or Hyundai. Toyota is currently at number 5 in sales. I'm ignoring the last 2 months sales as those were due to the plant shutdown and labour turmoil they faced leading to drastic cut down in production.



Honda has gone up in leaps and bounds but that has involved changing their entire product portfolio. So now the only car above 10L in the Honda stable is the CR-V. They are looking at volumes and not margins which is why their product line up by end of 2014 will look like:

Brio > Amaze > Jazz > Mobilio > City > CR-V

Only the CR-V will be more than 10L ex-showroom.

In comparison only the Etios and Liva are below 10L for Toyota. Everything else is well above. So no.5 slot maybe in terms of sales but in terms of revenue thanks to their products occupying a much higher price segment it maybe much better. In volume they can't come close to Maruti, Hyundai, Mahindra and now Honda as they are in volumes segment.

Such a change in portfolio doesn't happen overnight, it takes 3-4 years.

So going by the above this is what you should expect from Toyota in the Future as per my assumptions:

1. New Innova in 2015. Already under development.
2. New Fortuner based on all new IMV platform. Probably 2016.
3. All new Etios/Liva. Toyota should have gone back to the drawing board and could already be working on a new Etios.
4. Maybe look at a compact SUV based on the Terios?
5. Hybrid cars. Toyota seems to be moving away from diesels and looking more into hybrids.

Short term plan seems to be:

1. New Altis
2. Fortuner with smaller 2.5L engine and VGT (VNT in toyota lingo)

What is a disappointment right now and Toyota should do something IMO:

1. The new Altis is severely under specced. Only 2 airbags, no ESP, no rear AC vents, no dual zone climate control and an anemic diesel engine.
2. The Innova needs the 2.5 VNT engine badly! It's not in the Thailand spec do doesn't make it to India but something needs to be done about it!
3. 2.0 Camry at a much much lower price tag. It's there in Thailand. Let's get it here at a sub 20L price point.
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Old 27th May 2014, 11:01   #63
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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I don't have that problem in my Altis at all.

Exception of Etios/Liva, Toyota's are a notch above Hyundai, Honda, Maruti when it comes to sheet metal and solid feel.
Exactly my point. Both Liva and Etios, except for a reason or two, do not carry the Toyota Legacy. They have been made for Developing Markets and it shows in the conservative approach in almost every Area. Corolla/Altis/Camry are in different league altogether.


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In comparison the Innova door has a deep dent and paint has come off.
Innova's wafer thin sheet metal and paint coat are just run of the mill and have been discussed/pointed out more than once.
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Old 27th May 2014, 11:49   #64
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Why then do you think that Toyota owners still rave about the "quality" of Toyotas? Any idea? There must be something, no?
For example, while my Alto VX never failed me for almost 1 lakh kilometre that I've travelled in it, I as well as the Mass couldn't do anything about the rattles that the car developed at around 25K on road. The rattles worsened over the years (I stayed with the car for six years or so), and I had to let it be and was happy that the car still ran fine.
Dear friend, I did not intent to hurt any Toyota Owner's sentiments. Even my Car started rattling right after 20k - odd on odo. In every service, some padding work is done, rattling stops for a good 2 months and then it reverts. But do I hate my car? NO! Because that is probably the only issue I have faced in my Maruti. 2008 Accords rattle, but A Polo does not! A Toyota Qualis done over 1.5L kms runs smoother and costs lesser to maintain than a 50k done Tavera. Beyond doubt Toyotas are immaculate in service and Maintenance. But a Car, specially a Sedan is much more than that!

Take Safari (pre storme) and RE Bullet (pre makeover era). They both have certain inconsistencies; kinda "known and accepted bugs", and their owners are well aware of this. Still they swear of their machines.

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
My Toyota, with all those so-called cheap interiors, the weighing scale type console and those "inferior" plastics doesn't make a single rattling sound at almost 30K now. And astoundingly, I found maintaining a Toyota Liva is cheaper than maintaining an Alto or a Maruti 800, service costwise. That's really something which I didn't expect at all.
Less Service cost - I agree. This is also one of the reasons why Liva/Etios are so popular among Cab operators.
No Rattles - Most other cars don't either. Same could have been achieved with Modern Looks and Better interiors.
Being conservative does not implies something bad. However, fact remains the same - After all how much does it costs to provide an Engine cover, or say a proper dashboard / NVH insulation etc. Sedan buyers prefer exclusiveness. Lesser maintenance cost is a factor, but definitely not a deal breaker. Had it not been a case, Hyundai, Ford, VW would have struggled to sell their cars. In our market, a successful product must master some aspects, and at least tick the remaining ones.
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Old 27th May 2014, 13:56   #65
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
You are comparing a normally aspirated unit to a turbocharged one mate
I know. The point was to show how much the game has moved on and how far behind Toyota is in tech.
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Old 27th May 2014, 14:10   #66
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I own a 2005 Toyota innova G2 bought for Rs. 8.5 lakhs and a 2013 Toyota Fortuner bought for 25.5 lakhs. I have taken both these cars to various corners of India Leh, Kanyakumari, etc from Delhi. The one thing I like about these cases is their RELIABILITY. My brother has a CRV and a 3 series bought in 08 and 13 respectively both are much better to drive but much less practical. Crv 2.4 AT gives him 6-8 kmpl and the BMW with its run flats and low ground clearance is limited to the good highways. Both my cars have great resale value the service costs (3-5k) are B segment hatchback levels and have never once deserted me once in the middle of nowhere. I find a car that can give up on you when you are with your family 100's of miles away from home useless. Just for that peace of mind I have no regrets giving Toyota a premium for their vehicles till they keep up their quality.
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Old 27th May 2014, 14:16   #67
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

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I own a 2005 Toyota innova G2 bought for Rs. 8.5 lakhs and a 2013 Toyota Fortuner bought for 25.5 lakhs. I have taken both these cars to various corners of India Leh, Kanyakumari, etc from Delhi. The one thing I like about these cases is their RELIABILITY.

Just for that peace of mind I have no regrets giving Toyota a premium for their vehicles till they keep up their quality.
There you go, this is where Toyota trumps the market with its reliability and T.A.S.S quality. After all a customer looks mainly at these two things which then pull in FE, power, gadgetries etc. if the car is not reliable then why buy and suffer!

Toyota may be asking a premium for what it offers but I'll pay because this company offers me tension-free ownership.

Anurag.
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Old 27th May 2014, 14:17   #68
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One obvious observation is that Toyota is big on playing the service card.

Most next generation cars coming from domestic /foreign manufacturers will be similar in terms of features /reliability.

The service experience at Toyota is the best out there as per ownership threads on the forum.
Service discounts, lowest cost, longer life of critical parts, transparent costs, servicing Taxis, b and c segments, fortuners, etc under the same roof. The attitude of sales staff towards potential customers.
Solving problems raised by customers,

Last year I advised a female colleague to go for a Toyota liva instead of a brio petrol and she was very happy with the service experience as she has to take the car for service herself.

A lot of Innova taxi owners still take the car to TASS even if they have to drive to the next city for a service.

As for design, they have always had boring designs.

For a new car buyer looking for a great workhorse Toyota makes good sense.

Last edited by drsingh : 27th May 2014 at 14:19.
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Old 29th May 2014, 14:52   #69
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Toyota's Etios twins target buyers in the premium hatch and entry level 3-box sedan segment with the promise of reliability (meaningless when these segments are already dominated by Japs and Koreans) and space, and they bombed, also partly due to them not being quality global c![/b]
Hi IshaanIan, Not wanting to be a killjoy but please note that the term Jap is considered highly offensive to the Japanese world over. Its akin to using the 'n' word for African Americans. Considering that this is a site which is viewed by world over I would request you to please modify your post.

For the overall argument, I concur with your observations. I think that Toyota is overplaying the reliability piece. Its something similar to what VW has been trying to market (German Engineering) with no frills, plain jane cars when the competition (equally reliable) is proving the product with all the bells and whistles.
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Old 14th June 2014, 01:09   #70
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Default Re: What is Toyota playing?

Toyota finds success in 3 types of markets - 1) Large, lucrative markets where they customize the products to suit market tastes (Japan, US) 2) Small markets where they can influence Govt. policy to tilt in their favour (South-east Asia, GCC, Africa) 3) Tiny markets with low competition where they steamroll the competition.

In a highly competitive market like India where margins are meagre, Government policy changes with seasons and has strong, well-entrenched home-grown players Toyota faces an almost EU like inclement situation. Despite their best efforts EU has proven to be an endless pit guzzling cash for Toyota. They do not want to open another pit in India.

So they wait and watch in India, hoping and praying that there will be policy stability, that the next Govt. will offers sops on hybrids, that the Indian customer will be a little more charitable and leave more money on the table for the manufacturer.

Mark my words, the day there is a sop on hybrids Toyota will be in like a ton of bricks. Till then they are sitting at the door of the Indian car buyers home licking their chops !

But Toyota get us the Hachi Roku as FBU Rs. 29.9L ex-showroom Delhi (do the math, chotto negative contribution des ne) and I shall feed my family just 2 meals a day to get one. And all past sins, the Hideous and the Liver shall be forgotten!

Last edited by Ferruccio : 14th June 2014 at 01:16. Reason: Giving Toyota a means for redemption of sins
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Old 14th June 2014, 03:14   #71
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You know, it is my dream for Toyota to bring the Legendary Lexus brand here. We all have been hearing things with the delays and why it may not do that well here.
But anybody who owns Mercs,bm,audis, which are so unreliable, wouldn't they go for the Lexus?

I would buy one in a jiffy. Just look at the Lexus 2014 IS-250. What a car that is. It is high time now they just bring it here and price it right.
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Old 14th June 2014, 08:03   #72
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You know, it is my dream for Toyota to bring the Legendary Lexus brand here. We all have been hearing things with the delays and why it may not do that well here.
But anybody who owns Mercs,bm,audis, which are so unreliable, wouldn't they go for the Lexus?

I would buy one in a jiffy. Just look at the Lexus 2014 IS-250. What a car that is. It is high time now they just bring it here and price it right.
The IS is too small compared to the competition and the rest of their line up lacks competitive diesel offerings.
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Old 14th June 2014, 12:05   #73
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I'd agree that Price is a policy, and as long as the product has the specific USP that consumers are looking for, being expensive is NOT wrong.

Toyota got that right. And Thanks to its appreciative customers, they managed to put the company on a pedestal.

But NOW, things have changed. Newer, advanced products have emerged. They're advanced not only in features (that include more powerful yet efficient engines, better suspension setups, safer designs & even better gizmo's) but also in the reliability aspect. They're even significantly cheaper to buy!

Guess I needn't elaborate on the issues with Innova/Altis/Camry. Yet, I can safely say that the ONLY 'features' Toyota can boast of now, is reliability & a relatively better A.S.S.

IMO the competitions offerings are better in EVERY other way. Agreed, they've struggled with maintaining A.S.S. experience, but they're definitely trying to improve & succeeding at that too.

With new products, comes the need of varied forms of specialised training of workshop personnel. Let's see how Toyota reliability & A.S.S. fares after new advanced products are launched. They've built a brand that can take them MUCH more far ahead IF they upgraded their offerings with their trademark Reliability & better A.S.S. experience.

C'mon Toyota, you'll know what we want & how we want it. Make your move.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 14th June 2014 at 12:13.
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