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Old 27th October 2015, 07:05   #1156
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by procrj View Post
Sightly OT: After going through 40 odd pages here and reviews & videos on other portals & youtube, I have some very basic questions:
1) 3 Cylinder turbo engines seem to be quiet efficient and maybe even cheaper than 4 cylinder turbo diesels. Why are we not seeing more of these in India?
2) Given the tendency of a 3 Cylinder to vibrate more, what changes has M&M done to the engine mounts to ensure that they last longer and handle this additional load
3) Given that FR layout cars are making a comeback and the advantage of the layout is better handling, braking and lower turn radius: will this work well for monocoque cars?
4) Does the mechanical loss due to FR configuration offset the gain from 3 Cylinder Turbo? Is this along with the additional weight the main reason for lower ARAI FE of the TUV 300?
5) Are FR cars more expensive to maintain?
Hello procrj, these are interesting questions, but before one can get to them, I thought of clarifying something which is leaving me a bit fogged - when you mention FR, are you referring to the drive train, i.e. front wheel drive/FWD? Or am I missing something here?
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Old 27th October 2015, 07:10   #1157
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

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Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
- when you mention FR, are you referring to the drive train, i.e. front wheel drive/FWD? Or am I missing something here?
FR- Front engined Rear wheel drive
FF- Front engined Front wheel drive

Hope your doubt is cleared.
Cheers
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Old 27th October 2015, 09:54   #1158
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

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Originally Posted by silverknight View Post
Shoot an email to customercare@mahindra.com with your contact details and dealer name. I found M&M's customer care to be responsive.
Thank you for that info buddy. I have just now shot a mail to them attaching my booking amount receipt copy. Hope they respond back soon to my e-mail.

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Originally Posted by CAPTAIN REX View Post
Congratulations to AutoIndian and Nishantkar on the upcoming new addition, and welcome to the Army, oops sorry Tank Club.
Thank you CAPTAIN REX. You are the trendsetter and we all would be following your foot steps.
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Old 27th October 2015, 11:14   #1159
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
FR- Front engined Rear wheel drive
FF- Front engined Front wheel drive

Hope your doubt is cleared.
Cheers
Thanks, DicKy - that's certainly an addition to my auto lexicon! Coming from a slightly older generation of gearheads, I need to update - and guys like you on T-BHP are a real help in this regard!

Quote:
Originally Posted by procrj View Post
Sightly OT: After going through 40 odd pages here and reviews & videos on other portals & youtube, I have some very basic questions:
1) 3 Cylinder turbo engines seem to be quiet efficient and maybe even cheaper than 4 cylinder turbo diesels. Why are we not seeing more of these in India?
2) Given the tendency of a 3 Cylinder to vibrate more, what changes has M&M done to the engine mounts to ensure that they last longer and handle this additional load
3) Given that FR layout cars are making a comeback and the advantage of the layout is better handling, braking and lower turn radius: will this work well for monocoque cars?
4) Does the mechanical loss due to FR configuration offset the gain from 3 Cylinder Turbo? Is this along with the additional weight the main reason for lower ARAI FE of the TUV 300?
5) Are FR cars more expensive to maintain?
Hello again procrj,
OK, that's cleared the FF and FR doubt, thanks to DicKy! The points you have raised are interesting and a couple of thoughts come to mind. The popularity of 3-cyl auto engines in India is relatively recent and the Quanto/TUV is probably the first indigenous CRDE effort, the earlier petrol offerings from Maruti being straight imports.

As you have mentioned, 3-cyl units - and particularly diesels - are more prone to NVH issues. Dual mass fly-wheels (used by M&M in the TUV, I believe) and Lanchester balancer shafts as well as counter-balanced crankshafts are some of the solutions resorted to in order to tackle vibration issues.

Regarding RWD and monocoque structures, I cant really see any direct link. For vehicles <4m o'all length and <2.5m WB, it is generally acknowledged that handling is better ("more entertaining" as BBC TG used to put it back in the days of the Alfasud!) with FWD. Also within these general dimensions, packaging the front engine/front drive aggregates has proven to be, commercially, a great success. And with the popularity of double-cardon joints in the front half-shafts, even the turning circle is not such a major issue any more.
What is certainly an issue - in my mind at least - is the durability of FWD drive trains compared to RWD in the larger, more powerful applications. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this forum, US mfrs., and GM in particular, in the '70s & '80s - the Cadillac Eldorado & Oldsmobile Tornado among others - resorted to FWD with their giant V-8s and gargantuan length. These prove to be impractical and short-lived.

To get to the nitty-gritty - in a large, powerful FWDer the front suspension set up has to deal with greater stresses. Firstly, the max. steering stresses during lock-to-lock turns at higher-than-crawling speeds and then, to compound the issue, it has to handle max. engine torque under the same lock-to-lock manoeuvres. And all the computer-modelling and stress analysis notwithstanding, these issues have not been totally resolved. This is one major reason why most high-end vehicles (BMW, MB-till their recent A & B types and all the Italian exotics, et al) have stuck with RWD - they are just more durable with far less drive-line issues.

Re. lower FE in the TUV, the higher kerb wt (1590 kg of the TUV vs 1300 kgs or less for the competition) is certainly a major factor. Whether mechanical losses in the RWD set-up of the TUV is a contributing factor is open to debate. Though to be honest (and yes, I am greatly partial to RWD!) transmission technology, effective lubrication and mfr'ing tolerances in drive trains today are at a level where I dont believe such losses play a deciding role.

About maintenance costs I believe these to be a factor of individual driving habits and just how conscientious one is about following the PMS once the warranty period is over!
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Old 27th October 2015, 16:22   #1160
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverknight View Post
Shoot an email to customercare@mahindra.com with your contact details and dealer name. I found M&M's customer care to be responsive.
You were spot on Girish. In the morning @ 09:30am I shot a mail to the above id and by 02:55pm, I received a response from Customer Care - Automotive Division:
Quote:
We are requesting our Area Sales Manager in Pune Area Office Mr. XXX XXX to look into the matter and revert back to you.

We request you to kindly bear with us in the meanwhile.
Within 3 minutes of receiving the above mail I got a call from the Area Sales Manager. He explained me the whole booking to manufacturing process and how the car gets invoiced to the dealer. He said that either he himself or the Sales Manager from the dealership would get in touch with me and update me the status of the car. He asked me to save his number and I can reach out to him anytime in case I need any further information.

Hats-off to the customer centric attitude shown by Mahindra . Who said only the Japanese car companies were prompt in their responses and making the customer feel as a king. M&M has just demonstrated that they are not far behind, way to go Mahindra
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Old 27th October 2015, 18:49   #1161
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
He said that either he himself or the Sales Manager from the dealership would get in touch with me and update me the status of the car.
The dealership Sales Manager (DSM) called me and asked me what was my concern. I told him that I am not getting any kind of updates about the status of my booking. He said that as per their system the billing date is showing as first week of Dec. I told him that I had gone ahead with the booking only after getting the commitment that car will be delivered to me before Diwali. On that he said that there is a lead time of 6-8 weeks and they are trying their best for delivery by Diwali.

I gave this update to the M&M Area Sales Manager (ASM). He then tried to get the dealership Sales Manager into conference with me, however his phone was coming busy. The ASM then told me that he would talk to the DSM offline and understand from him why he was unsure about delivery before Diwali.

I am sure there is no unprecedented demand for the TUV like that of the Creta. So I am wondering where those 4313 dealer dispatches in the month of Sep-2015 have gone? I don't see so many TUVs on the road. So why a car booked on 19th Oct should be delivered in the first week of Dec 2015. I told him that I am even flexible on the colour options, my topmost priority is to get the car before Diwali.
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Old 27th October 2015, 19:07   #1162
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
I am sure there is no unprecedented demand for the TUV like that of the Creta. So I am wondering where those 4313 dealer dispatches in the month of Sep-2015 have gone? I don't see so many TUVs on the road. So why a car booked on 19th Oct should be delivered in the first week of Dec 2015. I told him that I am even flexible on the colour options, my topmost priority is to get the car before Diwali.
I agree with you. Last weekend, I visited Mahindra showroom in Ahmedabad. Got a short test drive. After that I enquired about T4+ availability. Reply = If I'm firm on colour, it'll take 3 weeks max. If any choice will work then delivery can be arranged in a week.
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Old 27th October 2015, 19:14   #1163
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by zalaps View Post
I agree with you. Last weekend, I visited Mahindra showroom in Ahmedabad. Got a short test drive. After that I enquired about T4+ availability. Reply = If I'm firm on colour, it'll take 3 weeks max. If any choice will work then delivery can be arranged in a week.
Quite a contrasting experience to me at VVC Motors, Kondapur, Hyderabad. When I inquired last Thursday, I was told at least 4 weeks waiting time for any color and 3-4 months waiting time for AMT models.
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Old 27th October 2015, 19:30   #1164
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
I gave this update to the M&M Area Sales Manager (ASM). He then tried to get the dealership Sales Manager into conference with me, however his phone was coming busy. The ASM then told me that he would talk to the DSM offline and understand from him why he was unsure about delivery before Diwali.
Don't be taken in by all the sweet talk. If you want prompt action, just bluntly tell the M&M guy (not dealer rep) that you will cancel your booking if you don't get delivery before Diwali. That will definitely make him put a rocket up the dealer's you-know-where.

Cheers,
Vikram
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Old 27th October 2015, 19:32   #1165
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
Thanks, DicKy - that's certainly an addition to my auto lexicon! Coming from a slightly older generation of gearheads,
Thanks, on the other hand, my dad still says 'front axle' for FWD and 'back axle' in RWD, and i continue the same when conversing with relatives or local mechanics. Only going FWD,RWD when talking with same age enthusiasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
Regarding RWD and monocoque structures, I cant really see any direct link. For vehicles <4m o'all length and <2.5m WB, it is generally acknowledged that handling is better ("more entertaining" as BBC TG used to put it back in the days of the Alfasud!) with FWD.......
What is certainly an issue - in my mind at least - is the durability of FWD drive trains compared to RWD in the larger, more powerful applications. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this forum, US mfrs., and GM in particular, in the '70s & '80s - the Cadillac Eldorado & Oldsmobile Tornado among others - resorted to FWD with their giant V-8s and gargantuan length. These prove to be impractical and short-lived.

To get to the nitty-gritty - in a large, powerful FWDer the front suspension set up has to deal with greater stresses. Firstly, the max. steering stresses during lock-to-lock turns at higher-than-crawling speeds and then, to compound the issue, it has to handle max. engine torque under the same lock-to-lock manoeuvres. And all the computer-modelling and stress analysis notwithstanding, these issues have not been totally resolved. This is one major reason why most high-end vehicles (BMW, MB-till their recent A & B types and all the Italian exotics, et al) have stuck with RWD - they are just more durable with far less drive-line issues.
Spot on. Same reason i slightly wince at the XUV500. Sure it maybe cool to drive now, more performance and FE, but i really do believe that 10 years down the line the story would be different, while its kin Scorpio and Boleroes may chug along. Most, if not all people change their cars under 5 years is another story altogether.

Am also partial towards RWD, mostly for durability reasons and ahem... FTD reasons. It was one of the core things dad taught me wen i was little, about cars. Front engined rear wheel drive. And the same reason Toyota is persisting with it on their many core models.

Had respect for Tata in developing the x2 platform, but what happened next is just

The only thing lacking for me in the TUV300 is an engine with more oomph and option of a proper 4X4.
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Old 27th October 2015, 20:07   #1166
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
Don't be taken in by all the sweet talk. If you want prompt action, just bluntly tell the M&M guy (not dealer rep) that you will cancel your booking if you don't get delivery before Diwali. That will definitely make him put a rocket up the dealer's you-know-where.

Cheers,
Vikram
Replied back to the Area Sales Manager in these words:

Quote:
Hello Mr XXX,

Not sure if you had a chance to talk to Mr XXX XXX (Dealer Sales Manager) after our call in the evening. However if by tomorrow I don't get a confirmation about the car delivery before Diwali, then I am afraid I will have to cancel my booking and look for other options.

As I told you earlier in the day, I am currently using a loaner car of my relative, which I have to return back to him before Diwali. I will have to go for a car, which is readily available.
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Old 27th October 2015, 21:10   #1167
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Replied back to the Area Sales Manager in these words:
Things have now started falling in place. The ASM took me in conference with the Dealership Sales Head (DSH) and asked him about the availability of cars. The DSH informed that one White T6+ has arrived today and if I am interested I can have a look at it. He also mentioned that one Blue T8 has been billed and he can confirm about its availability by tomorrow evening. He mentioned that billing goes on till 31st midnight (for the monthly dispatches) and on 1st Nov, he will be able to tell me exactly, which colors/ variants will become available.

So my dear friend, comfortablynumb, the rocket definitely seems to have hit the right place

On poking further and letting him know that I am a TBHP member, well aware of the fact that 4K+ TUVs have already been dispatched to dealers, where have all these cars gone? He mentioned that most of them have gone to other states, Pune being the nearest to Chakan plant gets the least preference. 130+ TUVs have been already billed to the two dealers in Pune (Silver Jubilee and Kundan).

The ASM also mentioned that he will talk to his higher management and come back to me by 31st afternoon, if I will be getting the car of my choice delivered before Diwali. If not then I am free to go ahead with my cancellation of booking. I can do the cancellation even tomorrow, but then want to give him a fair chance. Lets see if things work out as expected in the next few days (fingers tightly crossed )
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Old 27th October 2015, 22:38   #1168
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
Dual mass fly-wheels (used by M&M in the TUV, I believe) and Lanchester balancer shafts as well as counter-balanced crankshafts are some of the solutions resorted to in order to tackle vibration issues.
Roger that. My concern is about how well this has been mated to the engine. Did some reading up and the summary was that you have to get everything just about right to ensure that the DMF does not wear out early. And the fact that Quanto did not use a DMF makes me worry that this is new ground for M&M and the first buyers will be guinea pigs
Quote:
About maintenance costs I believe these to be a factor of individual driving habits and just how conscientious one is about following the PMS once the warranty period is over!
My reason for asking about maintenance costs it to get a comparison with MSIL. Not sure how expensive M&M is when compared to MSIL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
The only thing lacking for me in the TUV300 is an engine with more oomph and option of a proper 4X4.
Agree that more oomph would have made this tank a real charger

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~40 km test drive of the tank today, which included city traffic in a mix of roads as well as relatively empty 6 lane stretch. My feedback:

Drove the T8 manual which had done 3.5k KM
Engine & Power
- In 1st & 2nd gear, the engine sounds very strained when you rev over 3K RPM. Get to the 4th & 5th gears and you can easily push it to the 4K rpm mark. After that, there is no real increase in acceleration and the noise in the cabin gets pretty loud
- Driving in 2nd and 3rd gear in city traffic is easy. There is more than enough torque on offer and all you have to do is ensure that you keep the car in the power band of 1.5-2.8K RPM
- ESS can be a real pain. Stop for a few seconds behind a car and suddenly you find that traffic is moving and others are honking at you. The few seconds that it takes to depress the clutch fully and the engine to start feels like a minute and you get some dirty stares
- Getting to 100 kmph is easy and you don't really have to do much but hitting the 120 mark takes a little patience
- Once you hit 120, the car easily cruises at speed and the engine does not feel stressed. This is based on my 3-4 min ride at 120 kmph but I don't think cruising at 120-130 speeds will be a problem

Clutch, Steering & Gear
- The clutch was soft (maybe due to 3.5K km of use)
- The gear level does vibrate and at high speeds, you can clearly feel it. Having said that, even my wagonR level does vibrate at 120 and I am not very concerned
- Gear throws are not as short as the grand i10/elite but not very long either - Slotting was also pretty easy but reverse is another story. Need to ensure that you push the gear lever to the extreme right before you slot into reverse
- The steering is neither heavy nor light. Feels just about right and weighs up nicely at higher speeds
- One section of the road was very uneven and had short undulations like when rumblers have been removed but the surface has not been relaid. I was driving at 90-100 kmph and the steering began to oscillate a little, which was unexpected as all this while it was pretty solid. what could be causing this?

Ride, Handling & NVH
- All round visibility is good and the car is easy to handle even in tight traffic. I expected it to be hard to manoeuvre but was able to take a couple of tight turns as well as 2 U turns with relative ease.
- Engine noise is very subdued till you cross the 3K RPM mark and even after that at high gears, its more of a growl than a whine. Can live with that as long as the windows are up
- Suspension soaks up a lot of road defects and the sound it makes is a muted reassuring thud and not a crashing sound
- The tank swallows up small potholes and broken roads and you hardly feel a thing as long as you are you are doing 20+ kmph
- Slowed down to ~10kmph for a couple of speed breakers and car seemed to wallow a little.Felt a little like floating in a boat on a small wave and was a little unsettling
- Road intersections, BBMP mini tunnels and other road depressions are not transmitted into the cabin but sometimes when there is a slight difference in surface level, the car tends to bounce a bit
- The front seats are the best place to be and the comfort level is on par with most premium hatchbacks. Adjustable lumbar support is a good thing and should come in handy during long drives
- wind noise starts seeping in at 90+ kmph speeds but the Czars were very quiet

Other smaller things
- Contoured steering feels good to hold and the front seats are very comfortable
- Parking sensors work well and its pretty easy to reverse the tank
- Everything falls to hand pretty easy but the centraly mounted power window switches will need getting used to
- Speakers are just about OK and if you are finicky about the note, you will need an upgrade
- Quality of stalks and buttons are pretty decent and on par with competition
- Overall the glass area seems smaller than that of the wagonR or even the ertiga if I ignore the rear quarter panel glass
- The storage space under the drivers seat in the T8 is a neat add on
- Under-body protection exists only below the engine bay in the form of hard plastic sheet
- Fuel tank does not have any kind of protection from elements on the road

Will I buy the TUV 300? Not sure. My heart is in love but my head is rattling off the merits of the ertiga over the tank. Need to sleep on it a little more and test drive some more before I decide to invest

Last edited by procrj : 27th October 2015 at 22:44.
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Old 28th October 2015, 00:00   #1169
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

The quality of the TUV 300 interiors is so much better than the Scorpio and XUV even that it is hard to consider the Scorpio or XUV in its presence and then the engine power takes away from the TUV 300.

The Scorpio dash and door pads and ergonomics are pathetic for a vehicle costing so much.

That said the TUV does deserve all the success it gets. It is a nice and practical vehicle and AMT makes it even more desirable. Compact, practical, good visibility, easy to drive AMT and yet rugged.
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Old 28th October 2015, 01:29   #1170
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Default Re: Next-generation Mahindra Bolero? NAMED: Mahindra TUV300! EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 6.90 lakhs

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Originally Posted by CAPTAIN REX View Post


Congrats Silverknight on taking delivery of the white TANK UV and wishing you happy miles and smiles.

A black plastic cladding on the sides, along with the stone guard up front and at the rear will look real good on white.

Noticed that you too are feeling that the steering should have been lighter at low speeds.
Does your steering wheel return smoothly to the centre after taking a turn at slow speeds ? I find that I have to bring mine back to the centre using some force.
Thanks a lot and wish you the same. I think our experience with TUV have been exact.
- Heavy steering and yeah returning to centre at lower speed requires a nudge.
- Left front door rattle
- Today I tanked it up and got DTE around 780 or so
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