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Old 29th May 2014, 12:11   #61
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

I'm quite surprised at folks justifying the price as well as features and being content with the what Toyota is offering just because of reliability and ownership costs.

Being an Altis owner for 5 years, I was quite disappointed with the new car. I also think that the reliability and ownership cost is a bit over rated.

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
We just booked a Corolla AT to replace our 1st gen Corolla that ran 1.3L kms. Toyota keeps the price on par with other D-segment cars even though it is low on equipment because they are confident they can sell due to the reliability and low TCO it offers. This car will offer the most fuss-free ownership in its segment.

1. Price is high for what is offered: One is paying for reliability and low TCO. Any Toyota owner can vouch for this. Nothing comes for free (even intangible ones).

4. Elantra: No idea about this car. Not a fan of Fluidic designs. Not confident of these cars lasting 1Lac+ KMs with low TCO.
You should definitely try and find out more idea about the Elantra. Autocar had done a parts comparison and maintenance cost comparo last year.

The Elantra, in service costs and parts cost was the lowest when compared with the Altis which was one of the highest.

Going by ownership reports and the fact that Elantra is the highest selling D1 segment sedan, reliability issues are no where close to what Skoda owners face and have reported here. Infact Hyundai reliability is on par and TCO is definitely lower than the Altis.

Also, is the slight reliability worth losing 4 airbags over and spending more money for the Altis? The Altis automatic is 2 lakhs more than Elantra automatic which gets 6 airbags vs the 2 in Altis. Will the Elantra ownership be more by 2 lakhs vs the Altis? Is that maintenance cost worth sacrificing 4 airbags and ESP over?

The Altis is definitely reliable but when something does need changing it costs a bomb. Accidental repair parts are priced atrociously. The ORVM on the old Altis costs 14grand to replace which is more than the Jetta and Elantra by 2X.

A headlamp on my Altis is 34K a piece without the xenon ballasts and bulbs!! The Jetta is half and I remember Elantra was 1/3rd of that.

My car has crossed 50K kms in 5 years. While periodic service costs are very very reasonable, wear and tear part changes kill the TCO. A known issue with the Altis is accelerated brake pad wear; especially the rear brake pads. This was confirmed as an issue plaguing all Altis'. I get a regular service bill of 3-4K but just the rear brake pad set is 9K resulting in 13-14K bill. In the 50K kms done, my car is on it's 3rd set of brake pads. I even have confirmation that 20K is accepted life for the rear pads.

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2. No rear A/C: They could have added but trust me the AC of Corolla is a real chiller. We have other cars with vents all over the place and we find Corolla cools more effectively than others.
I got this exact same reason from the Toyota marketing guys justifying no rear AC. Noone complained about Ac so we don't need rear AC vents cause Altis AC is best.

The rear AC vent is never about effective cooling, it's about uniform cooling.

In my Altis, the lowest I need to go is 22C else it's usually at 23 or 24. The AC is a chiller no doubt.

Problem is if I set it to 23C when it's baking outside, the front passengers are cool and happy but the rear passengers are just about comfortable. 22C means my driver is freezing but my dad at the back is fine.

With climate control you cannot control the vents under the front seats so they don't throw any air unless you set to manual which is pointless.

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3. Comparison with Honda City: We have a honda city and I find it very mediocre and I never see it as substitute for Corolla. City has terrible GC, terrible NVH, feels too light/tin-like, terrible window-glass that lets all the heat, not much headroom and so on. Corolla is a hugely more comfortable car and almost flawless. The only thing common between them is "reliability" otherwise they are two totally different cars. Most people here are comparing the cars based on specs. You need to live with these cars to know that they are two very different cars. I know there is a popular thread about "D segment killed by C", it is mainly because of congested roads, lack of parking, fuel efficiency and so on and not because of C segments cars are offering cabins that are as comfortable as D segment cars.
Agreed but that's why I never compared the old Honda City, I was talking about the current new Honda City on Sale. Ground clearance issue is there in my Altis when fully loaded. This is after upsizing the tyres to increase clearance.

Congested roads and lack of parking is the same if you buy a C2 sedan like Linea or Vento or if you buy a D1 sedan. The dimensions are very near give and take a couple of inches.


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5. VW/Skoda cars: Love them and more importantly experienced them :-) This time we are looking for "reliable and low TCO" chauffeur driven cars, so wrong place.
Definitely agreed to this point. A VW/Skoda can never come close to the Toyota or Hyundai cost of ownership.

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6. Safety kit: More airbags would have been welcome. Corolla, helped by it's lack of 'tempting-dynamics', is a safe car to be in.
Lack of tempting dynamics is no reason for being ok with 2 airbags. The rear and side airbags are not when you explore limits of the car. It's when you (god forbid) get T boned or get a puncture and your car flies into the divider and goes on it's side. And the worst part is that the 2 airbags at the front are good for the chauffeur but the owner of the car who sits at the back gets no airbags because low cost of ownership was prioritised over airbags at the rear. A solely chauffeur driven car with no airbags at the back seems quite inexplicable if you ask me.

I have been a satisfied Altis owner for 5 years and would have blindly booked the new one at the current price even. After taking a close look at it and driving it it just failed to impress to what I was expecting. You feel short changed.

There are so many little things that my 5year old Altis has default but in the new one they have removed it.

After seeing the prices and what's on offer, the chequebook does not have the Toyota name on it.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 29th May 2014 at 12:54. Reason: grammar and punctuation fixes
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Old 29th May 2014, 15:58   #62
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

What does someone who: (a) thinks it is the Honda City petrol that is overpriced, and that is replete with terrible cost cutting, and looks tacky too (b) cannot stand the idea of owning any Hyundai, let alone the much-too-fluidic Elantra (c) is left indifferent by the dull, anodyne styling of the VAG cars, nevermind their alleged unreliability and cost of ownership,
do?

He buys the new Corolla! He should maybe go for the Fluence instead, but he just buys the Corolla, eyes wide shut. He is not foolish to, this new Corolla fits this sort of bill much better than the previous-gen one (talking petrols here).
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Old 29th May 2014, 17:02   #63
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I'm quite surprised at folks justifying the price as well as features and being content with the what Toyota is offering just because of reliability and ownership costs.
You are absolutely right. The Elantra, especially in the Diesel avatar is a far better car. Save for the update that might be in in a few months, that might add cooled rear seats and a touchscreen infotainment display which will make the package even more desirable.
Also, considering that the Elantra has fared excellently in the IIHS test, in fact better than the Corolla proves this.

The only place where the Elantra could do better was space. The rear seats no doubt are very comfortable, but look at the Octavia and Jetta or even the Corolla, and the Elantra's boot and rear leg room are dwarfed.

However, if we don't consider the prices, I would say that the Corolla is a very capable vehicle that has been killed by the horrendous pricing, especially for the top end variants. Toyota easily could have added a few features and made the car more desirable.

I would go on to say that for some reason, Toyota to me has started to seem rather greedy towards the Indian market. The substantial price rises in Innova were uncalled for. And the updates that they keep adding by stuffing the car with chrome just makes the car look worse , and that too at a higher price.

Toyota need to bring in more cars to India, especially their Lexus brand and consider revising their prices for the better.
stop being complacent Toyota.
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Old 29th May 2014, 17:33   #64
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
What does someone who: (a) thinks it is the Honda City petrol that is overpriced, and that is replete with terrible cost cutting, and looks tacky too (b) cannot stand the idea of owning any Hyundai, let alone the much-too-fluidic Elantra (c) is left indifferent by the dull, anodyne styling of the VAG cars, nevermind their alleged unreliability and cost of ownership,
do?

He buys the new Corolla! He should maybe go for the Fluence instead, but he just buys the Corolla, eyes wide shut. He is not foolish to, this new Corolla fits this sort of bill much better than the previous-gen one (talking petrols here).
You're right, with that degree of aversion to other brands/options, Toyota is it. But I do think that would be a very small section of the market.

I found your line about VAG's anodyne styling quite amusing, because if there is one brand whose styling can be described as anodyne it is Toyota to a tee (no pun intended.)
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Old 29th May 2014, 17:40   #65
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
What does someone who: (a) thinks it is the Honda City petrol that is overpriced, and that is replete with terrible cost cutting, and looks tacky too (b) cannot stand the idea of owning any Hyundai, let alone the much-too-fluidic Elantra (c) is left indifferent by the dull, anodyne styling of the VAG cars, nevermind their alleged unreliability and cost of ownership,
do?

He buys the new Corolla! He should maybe go for the Fluence instead, but he just buys the Corolla, eyes wide shut. He is not foolish to, this new Corolla fits this sort of bill much better than the previous-gen one (talking petrols here).
So basically your'e agreeing with what I said, and think that this car can only be bought out of desperation and lack of other options in that segment.

Someone who doesn't care about features or driving pleasure but just needs A to B transportation and has 20lakhs to spend.

It contradicts what you said earlier on each car having character

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Originally Posted by prakhar1998 View Post
However, if we don't consider the prices, I would say that the Corolla is a very capable vehicle that has been killed by the horrendous pricing, especially for the top end variants. Toyota easily could have added a few features and made the car more desirable.
Absolutely correct. If this car had 6 airbags, ESP and rear AC vents (forget the sun roof, ventilated seats and dual zone climate control) at the same price I would have booked one eyes closed.

Quote:
I would go on to say that for some reason, Toyota to me has started to seem rather greedy towards the Indian market. The substantial price rises in Innova were uncalled for. And the updates that they keep adding by stuffing the car with chrome just makes the car look worse , and that too at a higher price.
You could call it greed but another POV is that they realised the Altis is under specced compared to other cars and the segment has shrunk. Knowing fully well the Altis would never get the sales numbers it once did in 2008, they decided to maximize the margins per car and price it at a premium. They probably knew that at this price the Toyota loyalists, previous Altis customers would anyways come to them guaranteeing few numbers which they could cash upon.
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Old 29th May 2014, 17:47   #66
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
You're right, with that degree of aversion to other brands/options, Toyota is it. But I do think that would be a very small section of the market.

I found your line about VAG's anodyne styling quite amusing, because if there is one brand whose styling can be described as anodyne it is Toyota to a tee (no pun intended.)
I suspect it is a smaller size of the market in India relative to pretty much everywhere else in the world (except Western Europe) but is still worth say 300 cars a month at a minimum. btw, I know a few people who think exactly like i stated, including my B-I-L.

You are right about Toyota cultivating an unflashy image over the years, but that has already changed, across models (GT86, new US 2014 Camry etc): this new Corolla is styled to show that larger change in tToyota's approach to high-volume car design, inside and out.

VAG cars are in many ways the benchmark, but certainly not for design, inside or out. IMO only.
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Old 29th May 2014, 18:24   #67
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Going by ownership reports and the fact that Elantra is the highest selling D1 segment sedan, reliability issues are no where close to what Skoda owners face and have reported here. Infact Hyundai reliability is on par and TCO is definitely lower than the Altis.
Most cars today are fairly reliable (unless we are talking basket cases like DSGs or a Tata in its 1st year of production).

So it makes sense to compare cost of service and cost of replacing things like bumpers, ORVMs, brake pads, etc

We own a Verna & an i10 and they have been as reliable as Toyotas (touchwood). Where a Toyota really towers over the competition is after you cross 1 lac and 2 lac Kms and that is usually taxi-driver territory

Last edited by Mpower : 29th May 2014 at 20:23.
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Old 29th May 2014, 18:50   #68
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
What does someone who: (a) thinks it is the Honda City petrol that is overpriced, and that is replete with terrible cost cutting, and looks tacky too (b) cannot stand the idea of owning any Hyundai, let alone the much-too-fluidic Elantra (c) is left indifferent by the dull, anodyne styling of the VAG cars, nevermind their alleged unreliability and cost of ownership,
do?

He buys the new Corolla! He should maybe go for the Fluence instead, but he just buys the Corolla, eyes wide shut. He is not foolish to, this new Corolla fits this sort of bill much better than the previous-gen one (talking petrols here).
Or, he/she buys the Maruti Suzuki Ciaz - it may be premature but it is as valid a comparison as with the City - i have great expectations from the Ciaz/YL1.
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Old 29th May 2014, 19:10   #69
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
I have been a satisfied Altis owner for 5 years and would have blindly booked the new one at the current price even. After taking a close look at it and driving it it just failed to impress to what I was expecting. You feel short changed.
Hey Vid6639, I thought are you are a hardcore Toyota fan :-) The fact is there are lot of customers who don't want to see beyond Toyota Corolla. You show me another car that has a proven track record of:

1. rock solid reliability - best in segment
2. comfortable - best in segment
3. confidence that it will age well and serve for 100K+ kms

The supposedly closest rival Elantra, according to me, doesn't score well on the above three points. It is easy for a manufacturer to throw in more equipment, but really hard to make a car reliable and comfortable. That is why Corolla is the best selling car.

I am not saying Corolla is good for everyone, esp it is not a good choice for enthusiastic drivers as there are more exciting alternatives. You don't walk into a Corolla showroom imagining yourself weaving through trucks on full throttle highway run. You are more likely imagining that work commute in comfort.
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Old 29th May 2014, 19:27   #70
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

@Desdemona

I feel for you brother, and hear your argument. It's like iPhone users trying to explain the 'Apple' experience to Android users, who would keep discussing the mega pixels, the removable battery, the screen size, nifty features (which otherwise no one uses) along with lower price, to prove why a Samsung or Nexus is better (VFM). Well, those are hard tangible things and you can't beat those, in an argument. But the experience can only be felt, and felt by those who keep an open mind. Hence, to each his own really. Mega pixels matter to some, experience matters to others.
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Old 29th May 2014, 20:19   #71
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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post

You could call it greed but another POV is that they realised the Altis is under specced compared to other cars and the segment has shrunk. Knowing fully well the Altis would never get the sales numbers it once did in 2008, they decided to maximize the margins per car and price it at a premium. They probably knew that at this price the Toyota loyalists, previous Altis customers would anyways come to them guaranteeing few numbers which they could cash upon.

This is exactly what I said in my previous post in this thread. It is clearly evident from pricing of all Toyota's models that Toyota's strategy for India is clearly higher Profit Margins than the numbers.

Moreover, this segment has shrunk so from Toyota's POV, it does not make sense to go with numbers and less profit margin. OTOH, Skoda has to provide killer pricing along with features as they don't have any cash cows like Fortuner or Innova.

As I said previously, I am not defending Toyota but each company has different strategy for achieving maximum profits. In this case, it's not good for some consumers like individual buyer but it still makes sense for Toyota's target customers: fleet taxi operators, hotels and Corporates.
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Old 29th May 2014, 22:25   #72
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
The supposedly closest rival Elantra, according to me, doesn't score well on the above three points. It is easy for a manufacturer to throw in more equipment, but really hard to make a car reliable and comfortable. That is why Corolla is the best selling car.

I am not saying Corolla is good for everyone, esp it is not a good choice for enthusiastic drivers as there are more exciting alternatives. You don't walk into a Corolla showroom imagining yourself weaving through trucks on full throttle highway run. You are more likely imagining that work commute in comfort.
You don't seem to have got the point of the recent discussions; modern rivals, while safer, more feature laden, well priced and sometimes even nicer to drive, are also fast displaying comparable levels of comfort and reliability to the Toyotas

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Originally Posted by Vitalstatistiks View Post
I feel for you brother, and hear your argument. It's like iPhone users trying to explain the 'Apple' experience to Android users, who would keep discussing the mega pixels, the removable battery, the screen size, nifty features (which otherwise no one uses) along with lower price, to prove why a Samsung or Nexus is better (VFM). Well, those are hard tangible things and you can't beat those, in an argument. But the experience can only be felt, and felt by those who keep an open mind. Hence, to each his own really. Mega pixels matter to some, experience matters to others.
Androids that offer better screens, cameras, features, customization, and don't forget: don't break as easily!! Besides it ought to actually be, hardcore iPhone fans that haven't recognized how awesome androids like the Moto X, are getting
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Old 29th May 2014, 22:40   #73
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
You don't seem to have got the point of the recent discussions; modern rivals, while safer, more feature laden, well priced and sometimes even nicer to drive, are also fast displaying comparable levels of comfort and reliability to the Toyotas

hardcore iPhone fans that haven't recognized how awesome androids like the Moto X, are getting
Hi Ishaan. Can I just say that the new Corolla is the east Asian offering on the market...after the Kizashi, of course!
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Old 29th May 2014, 23:06   #74
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Androids that offer better screens, cameras, features, customization, and don't forget: don't break as easily!! Besides it ought to actually be, hardcore iPhone fans that haven't recognized how awesome androids like the Moto X, are getting
I go back to desdemona's (and in case of phones, my) point. So called 'hardcore apple fans' are not running down a cheaper but similar alternative. But, by being constantly questioned about it, they are forced to explain their choice to newer generation of users (cars or smart phone users) and interpret that as being 'hardcore'. You (i hope the 'you' is not taken literally) may be happy with mega pixels, at lower cost, I am happy with my experience. What is the need of constant one upmanship by deriding users of alternative ? I think that's the point desdemona makes for Corolla.

Btw, I use an S5 and if it wasn't a gift, I would dump it and go back to the iphone in a heartbeat. It's that good
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Old 30th May 2014, 01:29   #75
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Default Re: 2014 Toyota Corolla Altis (11th Gen) launched @ 11.99 lakhs

I think the overall review of the prices is quite negative, and I must say I have to agree. We have a first generation Corolla in the family, and I would love to swap it for the new Corolla, irrespective of the price difference. Here's why:

1. Reliability: Yes, everyone knows Toyota's are reliable, but lets not take it for granted.
In the last 10 years there has not been a single mechanical problem in the car. With any system. At all. The only rattle in those ten years came from the passenger side front door, when the speaker housing became loose after a collision and a big pothole.

2. Lack of rear A/C vents: In our Corolla, till date I have not missed them. Ever. I have been in cars with rear AC vents, (Linea, Innova, Verna, Volvo S80) and I have never felt the need for more air flow or faster cooling in the Corolla. Assuming the new Corolla's HVAC isn't worse than the one in our car, I will not miss rear AC vents.

3. Space: Comparisons with ANHCs and Vernas and Dzires is fine equipment wise, but have a sit in the back seat, and get driven around for a day. There is a reason so many Corollas a chauffeur driven. Jaguar charges Rs 3 lakhs more just for a few centimeters more space in the XJL over the XJ. The Corolla's ergonomics are also quite good. Buttons are easily located, everything operates with good tactility, and feels like its built to last. The design isn't perhaps the classiest, but you cannot dispute the space and comfort.

4.Petrol engine: The older 1ZZ-FE in our car is absolutely perfect for in city, part throttle driving. The mid and low end torque is adequate, and the response is sharp. The newer 2ZR-FE revs a bit more, and makes a bit more power and a bit more torque, and improves on efficiency. What's not to like? We won't be autocrossing and drag racing our car. Mostly driving to office and back. Maybe a weekend dinner two. And since my father is driven around, the BRILLIANT Octavia 1.8T is rendered useless. Also, we get close to 12kmpl in the city. Beat that.

5. Price: If the GL version (highest MT variant) was under 13.5l ex-showroom, it would have been perfect. 15.6l ex-showroom in Bangalore is perhaps a bit more than necessary. However, what I asked myself is this: Is it an unique product? Does it have something NO other car has? Is it worth paying more than the sum of its parts?
Probably not, but close enough. After 10 years, I have done something I didn't think possible. I have actually fallen in Love with my Corolla, and perhaps I am the first person ever to suggest the Corolla more with my heart than my head.

Just floor it in third gear will 5000 rpm. You will know too.

Last edited by Technocrat : 30th May 2014 at 02:50. Reason: added line breaks to improve readability, thanks
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