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Old 16th September 2014, 10:26   #121
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

This is a good initiative. I have not read the draft copy, but in my opinion in addition to fines, the penalties should be linked to the insurance premium and/or compensation.
For eg. to beat the fine, people put on any lid on their head and call it a helmet. The present fines do not bother them. Only when they know that the insurance premium will be hiked in the subsequent years or they will not get any compensation in case of accidents then it will make some impact.
But the rider here is that there should be honest policing which I doubt will be the case. Else citizens will be at the mercy of the whims of the traffic police.
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Old 16th September 2014, 10:30   #122
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk
I'd like for every incident to have a ticket associated with it. If I'm stopped by a cop, it should immediately be assigned a number by some automated system not in the hands of the cop.
This is a good idea, but I don't think it is practical in each and every scenario. Jumping of red lights, and perhaps over-speeding would be the low hanging fruits which can be easily targetted by technology. At present we are still on the process of having a strong nation wide database of vehicles, its owners & license holders. But many of the states do maintain state level databased. In Kerala, MV Department has done good automation to catch speeders. Notices have started landing up in the homes of the people, with pretty much no official doing any manual checks.

But Police (and Traffic Police and other wings) is a neccessary evil and going to stay here. We can cry, or we can try wishing them away, but they would be there. Even in the most tech savvy country, or the most safest country - the police have not been done away with. But what can be done is to stop the rights of police men to collect spot fines, and a more easily available way to check and put a stop to bribery.

Quote:
The weakest link in the current system is not just the bribe giver, but also the cop who's willing to accept it. People come out and say they're not paid well. So? Nobody put a gun to their heads. Do something else.
I liked the bolded part. Yeah, so we have police officers who take bribes. Well if we don't like it, leave the place. Has any one put a gun on our head and say we should stay put in the place where we all live !!?? No police man is snatching away the purse, forcibly pulling out money. He is negotiating and negotiating happens when both parties agree. Some body mentioned about not paying a bribe, and getting charged for three offences. He could have gone to the court, contest the case and perhaps come out without paying a paisa. But that means spending a lot of time in the court. Even in the most developed countries if a person wants to contest a traffic citation, he has to find time to goto the court and contest. E-Mailing, updating Facebook or Tweeting about such things would just not work.

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These 15k and above challans, the day they come into force, yes, you'll see a lot of people adjusting their aggression, but you'll also see the cops on the street being extra vigorous, and extra rich.
Exactly. Aggression would stop, and just because of the hassle and money involved people would change their ways. The act is still up for review. My e-mail to the contact points is on its way. One suggestion which I have sent is that there should be a detailed section on what would be the punishments meted out to law enforcement officials who are not enforcing the laws in letter and spirit, and who cook up false cases. The fines are heavy, so there should be a check and balance to ensure that the laws are not misused as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpunwani
If the government steps up enforcement, most people will observe the traffic rules.
Exactly sir!!!! This is what I am trying to convey. The current level of traffic fines, even a beggar would be able to pay. People have no problems in paying up fines, and they would continue to blame the traffic police any way. In India, we have too much democracy which people misuse. I again take the example of Kerala - 100% literate state. State had too much problem with drunken driving. First the police started levying larger fines (Rs.1000/-), but people had that much amount to spare and continued boozing and driving. Then they realised that more than money it is the step by step follow of procedure which would bring the change. Drunk drivers arrested, pulled out of their vehicles, put into the police jeep and taken to the station. First Hit: Self respect & power coming out of money is gone. Then medical check up done, reports made and the accused asked to produce to people to bail him out. Second Hit: Humiliation begins. Need to now beg two people (friends, parents etc.) to come and bail them out. They also lose their personal time. If nobody turns up even more fun. Accused can stay in the lock up with pick pockets etc. etc. Next comes the trial before a magistrate. Magistrate is the absolute boss. If he feels like, accused can go staright to a prison for three months. The fine levied is Rs.3000/-. Third Hit: Waste of time (at the court), having to meekly plead guilty to a magistrate and wait for the verdict.

Today Kerala's MV Dept and Police come up with good statistical data. How accident numbers have come down, how many youngsters died earlier, and how many die now. How many of them were drunk earlier, how many drunk youth die now on the roads. The numbers speak the truth, and today even the vocal critic of police and MV Department keep their mouth shut. People who took it as a challenge never to wear a helmet, now meekly wear it. Or else Rs.100/- goes pretty much every day.
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Old 16th September 2014, 12:42   #123
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Well in many places this happens even today right? And for speeding naturally since the fines are going to be heavy, people for sure would ask for evidence. A traffic police man just stopping and saying you are over-speeding would not work. When people know they will lose Rs.15K, naturally they would check for evidences.

For people who say there should not be heavy fines, because police men would take lesser amounts as bribe. Then we should not have any rules and laws, am I right? Any way the police would take bribes and let go people. So let us have a completely law-less society. Any body can do any thing, and get away by bribing. But then we should stop complaining about unruly drivers (to start with), eve-teasers, child-molestors and up and up in the crime ladder.

Since the draft bill is open for comments, let us also try to get some sections added which would decide penalty for traffic officers prosecuting people WITHOUT solid evidence. For bribery there are existing provisions to trap people. Perhaps with bigger amounts now at stake, people may start using every possible means to trap a bribe taker (cameras, sound recorders and even going to the Vigilance & Anti Corruption Bureau).
Let me try to simplify the point I am trying to make. When a law becomes draconian, it becomes cheaper to bribe your way out that fight it out. When fines are insanely high, the tendency to bribe increases.

Today, I'd rather pay a Rs 300 fine if I am caught for speeding than give a 100 rupee bribe to the cop. But if the fine is 15K, I'd rather pay a 1000 rupee bribe that the cop asks for than shell 15K out from my pocket.

So in future, I wouldn't be surprised if rouge cops randomly flag motorists down and ask for a bribe, knowing well that the motorist would bribe him than risk paying the hefty fine.
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Old 16th September 2014, 13:06   #124
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Am I the only one who thinks the fines are excessive and seem like a money grab by the government?

Maybe link the fines to income level or value of car to rationalize it.

I would have expensive fines for bad driving like coming down the wrong lane of a highway or over loading a truck. Not speeding which is a relatively minor offense.


Also where are the laws to hold contractors and engineers responsible for poor road design which is the prime cause of accidents.
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Old 16th September 2014, 14:07   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_convert View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the fines are excessive and seem like a money grab by the government?

Maybe link the fines to income level or value of car to rationalize it.

I would have expensive fines for bad driving like coming down the wrong lane of a highway or over loading a truck. Not speeding which is a relatively minor offense.

Also where are the laws to hold contractors and engineers responsible for poor road design which is the prime cause of accidents.
No you're not.
It's a complete money grab scheme by the system, thinking short term.
I can fine you 15k, but I will not give you infra that justifies that fine. Useless people.

Last edited by mayankk : 16th September 2014 at 14:12.
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Old 16th September 2014, 14:48   #126
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

If the government is going to ban the use of bluetooth devices, they might as well ban the drivers from conversing with the copassengers in the vehicle. It will cause the same amount to distraction that talking on the bluetooth/handsfree device is going to cause. This is one of the lamest rule I've seen so far.
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Old 16th September 2014, 14:51   #127
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Partially agree with you; it’s true we don’t have a world class public transport system; but just to save some money we encourage such practices.
For e.g. a State Transport Bus ticket will cost Rs100 for 100Kms; for the same distance a private operator who will not have a valid permit will charge Rs80 and an illegal taxi operator will charge Rs 70/-.
There should be provision to penalise both the traveller and the operator in such case.
A good transport system calls for little more fare where aam janta feels uncomfortable so they start looking for such alternative options even without caring for their life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeDrive View Post
It's not just the taxi operators. If we can have a good public transport system in place then this will not arise. It the lack of a good system that creates a demand for these services and the exploitation of the aam jantha.
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Old 16th September 2014, 14:57   #128
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksport
Today, I'd rather pay a Rs 300 fine if I am caught for speeding than give a 100 rupee bribe to the cop. But if the fine is 15K, I'd rather pay a 1000 rupee bribe that the cop asks for than shell 15K out from my pocket.
Sir, today you pay the fine because Rs.300 is no big money for you. For those rare species of people who don't have that much Rs.100 gets paid as bribe. But when Rs.15,000 becomes the fine it would pinch your pocket. A bribe of even half the amount also pinches your pocket. And when that happens you (as an example) would be extra cautious on the roads.

Quote:
So in future, I wouldn't be surprised if rouge cops randomly flag motorists down and ask for a bribe, knowing well that the motorist would bribe him than risk paying the hefty fine.
How about contesting the case by taking it up in the court? Today people don't do that because amounts like Rs.100/- and Rs.300/- is basically pocket money. Even when they are unduly charged, people pay and go. But when the fight is for bigger money, people may find it easier to fight it out in the court.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_convert
Maybe link the fines to income level or value of car to rationalize it.
That is a good idea.

Quote:
Also where are the laws to hold contractors and engineers responsible for poor road design which is the prime cause of accidents.
Why don't you reach out to the people who drafted this? This is not yet the law, but may soon become one. I have already shared my feedback about unscrupulous officers using these stringent laws to make more money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk
It's a complete money grab scheme by the system, thinking short term.
I can fine you 15k, but I will not give you infra that justifies that fine. Useless people.
Then what do you suggest? Pathetic fines, which even a beggar on the street can pay up? No responsibility from any person on the road, until each and every individual is 100% satisfied with every thing else in the country? Then who are we to sit and complain about bad drivers. I see that we have a dedicated thread to SPOT bad drivers, where it is complaints and more complaints.

Gentlemen!!: The present version we see is a Draft Bill. May be for the first time in the history a central government has put it up on the internet for review and suggestions. It is now upto the road users to take their time out, read the act and provide the feedback and suggestions. If there are scope for improvements, or rules which are tough to implement it, it is upto us to highlight the same. Your suggestions may be accepted or ignored, but how about at least making an attempt to share it with the authorities?

I know many Indians who don't bother to vote. The excuse is that any government is one and the same, and there is no point in voting. All are corrupt and inefficient. With that kind of an attitude, the same people should be willing to suffer any insult which the ruling government doles out to them. Becoming arm-chair generals and expecting others to do all the dirty work, would not benefit any one.

Please send your suggestions to
dharkat@nic.in
sanjay.bando@nic.in

As I see it chances of this draft bill becoming an Act is pretty much on the higher side. And once that happens, we all whining in Team-BHP would have no effect. We can say that Govt. should do this or that before charging us for traffic violations, but all that would be of no practical benefit.
'Be the change that you wish to see in the world.' - Mahatma Gandhi
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Old 16th September 2014, 14:59   #129
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
No you're not.
It's a complete money grab scheme by the system, thinking short term.
I can fine you 15k, but I will not give you infra that justifies that fine. Useless people.

Even yesterday there was a TV debate going on about the quantum of the fines. Somehow i find this argument pointless. The quantum is there to act as a deterrent.

One of the points was how can a motorcyclist pay a 2500 INR fine for not wearing a helmet. My first thought was seriously?? Why would you be that stupid to not to buy decent ISI branded helmet for about 1.5k and keep your head safe, you are no Ganesha.

Now coming back to the hefty fines, why is anyone bothered, if you have everything in order ? As long as you are on the correct side of the law, you should have no fear.
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Old 16th September 2014, 15:06   #130
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

The section 307 in the draft bill specifies:

(307) Offences relating to certain communication devices.
1. Whoever uses any handheld communication device while driving a motor vehicle
shall be punishable in accordance with Schedule III and shall be allocated penalty
points in accordance with Schedule II.

2. For the purpose of this section, “communication device” means a portable
communication device, other than a two-way radio where authorized
, with which
a person is capable of making or receiving a call or performing an interactive
communication function with any other person {hands-free devices would fit this condition}.

3. For the purpose of this section, “uses” includes any activity that could divert a
person’s attention away from the primary task of driving. Such types of
distractions include, sending a short message service (SMS) message, watching a
video, other phone applications as may be specified by the National Authority
.



Will this apply to using a Smart Phone navigation app like Google Maps while driving?
There is no clarity here.
Obviously using navigation aids a driver but then some would argue it also causes a distraction.

Last edited by achilles101 : 16th September 2014 at 15:07. Reason: paragraph break added
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Old 16th September 2014, 15:08   #131
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by achilles101 View Post
The section 307 in the draft bill specifies:

(307) Offences relating to certain communication devices.
1. Whoever uses any handheld communication device while driving a motor vehicle
shall be punishable in accordance with Schedule III and shall be allocated penalty
points in accordance with Schedule II.

2. For the purpose of this section, “communication device” means a portable
communication device, other than a two-way radio where authorized
, with which
a person is capable of making or receiving a call or performing an interactive
communication function with any other person {hands-free devices would fit this condition}.

3. For the purpose of this section, “uses” includes any activity that could divert a
person’s attention away from the primary task of driving. Such types of
distractions include, sending a short message service (SMS) message, watching a
video, other phone applications as may be specified by the National Authority
.



Will this apply to using a Smart Phone navigation app like Google Maps while driving?
There is no clarity here.
Obviously using navigation aids a driver but then some would argue it also causes a distraction.
Intresting, does this mean google glass is good? as this is not handheld
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Old 16th September 2014, 15:09   #132
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

While the fines looks steep and not in proportion to income a normal professional driver, it is very much needed. Look at the way these drivers on the street, and how careless are they on other road users and their family. The number of deaths, aggression on the road are one of the highest in the world.

Yes, with higher fines, their is more possibilities of bribe, but do note in this case the bribe will also be very high which itself is a major deterrence. Certainly while many of them are confident to get out of the situation by paying hefty bribe, but certainly their would be new fear, what happens if couldn't.

Specifically I liked the toll and police made responsible for monitoring overloading of trucks. Overloading is one of the major reason for deteriorating conditions of roads and accidents.

I would also wish toll collecting agency should also be made responsible to ensure only road worth vehicles are allowed on to the roads, by checking head light focus, break lights, front/back/side guard bars, alcohol level of the driver (may be at random); on finding violators the toll agency should have right to deny the access to roads in the interest of other road users
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Old 16th September 2014, 15:16   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adityasiera View Post



Now coming back to the hefty fines, why is anyone bothered, if you have everything in order ? As long as you are on the correct side of the law, you should have no fear.
Do you drive in India?
It doesn't seem to be so.
Come down to the border post on Noida link road around 9-10 in the night, when the liquor vends are about to close. Straight out the cops say 500 bucks or I will make up a big fine.
So now it's going to be 1000 bucks or I'll give a challan for 15000.

As far as the amount being a deterrant, when you stop someone making 20k a month, and ask him to cough out 15k, I'm sure he'll be very happy to be proper and pay 3/4 of his salary and follow the letter and the spirit.

But I'm not sure the current body politic is even aware of what the average Indian earns.
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Old 16th September 2014, 16:04   #134
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajivr1612
I have not read the draft copy, but in my opinion in addition to fines, the penalties should be linked to the insurance premium and/or compensation.
What you said is true. But in India, Insurance policies are for vehicles and not tagged to individual licenses. So this may be a tricky business. This is because a single vehicle can be driven by multiple people, some of them may be rash drivers. The vehicle owner would get a rude shock when an huge insurance premium awaits them . But here again "end justifies the means" a proud father would start beating his son black and blue, if the son takes away the family vehicle and flouts the law. A taxi or private bus owner may chuck out a driver who drives rashly and jacks up the premium on the vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk
Come down to the border post on Noida link road around 9-10 in the night, when the liquor vends are about to close. Straight out the cops say 500 bucks or I will make up a big fine.
I don't want to sound too much regional here. But law enforcement in states like UP, Bihar, Chattishgarh etc. is one big cruel & sad joke. It is not just traffic law enforcement, but all aspects of policing. In such places unless people demand better policing, and the social outlook changes no rule of and fair-play can be expected. But there are very many other places where things are much much better. And in these places there is also a high focus on the police by very active media (be it TV, social media etc.), so that bribery and corruption has its own limits.

Quote:
As far as the amount being a deterrant, when you stop someone making 20k a month, and ask him to cough out 15k, I'm sure he'll be very happy to be proper and pay 3/4 of his salary and follow the letter and the spirit.
Not a big problem. He would have to pay a proportionately higher amount as bribe, or can try his begging skills with the police officer and try to reduce the amount. But the ultimate point would be that he would now seriously become more careful and ensure that he does NOT land up in the same problem again. Why do you think in countries like US people are shit-scared of traffic citations? Because the fines are huge, and in some cases they even have to pay court-expenses (if they act too smart). A fine is only a punishment, if the fine payer knows the pinch in his pocket. If the fine is the same amount which a person daily pays at a bar for liquour then what is the motivation for him to stop "drinking & driving"?
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Old 16th September 2014, 17:02   #135
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Default Re: Government of India to redraft 26-year old Indian Motor Vehicle Law

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
How about contesting the case by taking it up in the court? Today people don't do that because amounts like Rs.100/- and Rs.300/- is basically pocket money. Even when they are unduly charged, people pay and go. But when the fight is for bigger money, people may find it easier to fight it out in the court.
Not in India. Here it is much cheaper to pay the bribe.
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