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Old 8th June 2014, 20:51   #16
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by hrman View Post
I was on my way back form Kochi I think. Happened to chat up with a co passenger, who turned out to head some part of Bosch's ABS business. He told me the cost to the manufacturer for fitting ABS should not be more than 6k per car. It seems Bajaj had advanced talks with them to fit ABS in their bikes, which would cost 2k. But these plans were shelved.

So I don't think cost is a constraint when it comes to equipping cars with safety features. It is more of the scant regard to passenger safety from manufacturers owing to lax motor vehicle laws. Its great if it becomes mandatory.
This is akin to what Reliance Mobile did in the last decade, mobile telephony was expensive till these guys changed the way the business was done. Hope a similar disruptive change happens in the safety aspects of vehicles.

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And on this, I hope it becomes mandatory for all passengers to belt up.
I thought it already was mandatory, only that no one was enforcing it, similar to the sun films.
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Old 8th June 2014, 23:55   #17
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

I will share my experience of buying a entry level , though top of its own line hatch back.
I was bought an Alto K10 VXI.
While taking delivery i ask the sales rep that what about rear defogger and wiper.
Prompt was the reply this model doesnt have the option.
Ok. So can i get one fixed from Maruti by paying extra?
No sir Maruti doesnt give you the option.
Incase you want a rear wiper please get it done from outside but that will void your warranty.

No tell me folks what kind of nonsense is this?
Are we all taken for granted in this country?
An entry level hatch doesnt have rear AC vents hence if i have to rely on the ac to cool the chamber to clear the rear windshield it takes ages.

Its really hard to drive in heavy rainfall as i cant see anything approaching from behind.

Neither an entry level buyer is provided with this basic safety feature nor do they let you have the option incase you are smart enough to understand the importance of this utility they will not let you get it without any damage to you ie. voiding you warranty.
So incase you are looking for rear defogger or wiper please shell out an extra Lakh or two to promote your car shortlist to the next level for something which probably costs in hundreds or at max a thousand!
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Old 9th June 2014, 09:52   #18
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by wilful View Post
...But Dinesh Mohan, the Volvo Chair Professor Emeritus at IIT Delhi, says safe doesn’t have to mean expensive. “Safety features such as airbags, ABS (anti-lock brake system) and rear wipers would only add about
Rs 20,000 to the cost of the car. But because it is not mandatory, car manufacturers provide these features only in top-end versions of cars and bundle it with other features making it expensive by over Rs 1.20 lakh, depriving the Indian car buyer of a variant that has safety features,” he says.
...
Maruti charges a 25K additional for ABS & Toyota charges an additional 50K for ABS + Airbags. So I would say the article is a little bit misleading on the figures but it's an eye opener on the premium charged for these safety features.

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Originally Posted by hrman View Post
...He told me the cost to the manufacturer for fitting ABS should not be more than 6k per car....
That's a 400% premium the manufacturers charge!

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Originally Posted by adneo View Post
I will share my experience of buying a entry level , though top of its own line hatch back.
...
Are we all taken for granted in this country?
...
If 25,000 people queue upto buy this junk every month, then should we blame the manufacturers for exploiting the consumers? They are giving what the market wants.
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Old 9th June 2014, 11:37   #19
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

The real problem is not that these features are not default.
The real problem is that car manufacturers, through lobbying to the govt(cash, support and what not) have successfully throttled safety features becoming mandatory.
Even at time of seat belts law, there was lot of opposition from manufacturers, and their cartel tried to get this scuttled.

Even today, whenever there is talk of any such measure, SIAM sends its lobbyists. Its high time the govt stopped listening to this cartel and did the right thing by making airbags and ABS mandatory.
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Old 9th June 2014, 12:17   #20
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
The real problem is not that these features are not default.
The real problem is that car manufacturers, through lobbying to the govt(cash, support and what not) have successfully throttled safety features becoming mandatory.
Even at time of seat belts law, there was lot of opposition from manufacturers, and their cartel tried to get this scuttled.

Even today, whenever there is talk of any such measure, SIAM sends its lobbyists. Its high time the govt stopped listening to this cartel and did the right thing by making airbags and ABS mandatory.
Yes absolutely! I (and am sure a lot of others too) was always under the impression that features like airbags and abs were frightfully expensive - pushing costs to very high levels - which is why manufacturers put them (grudgingly - for instance: 1 driver airbag on the higher variant and so on) only on the most expensive versions - little realising that they were bundled with other stuff (a kind of smokescreen to hide actual costs).
I completely agree that these should be made mandatory. Arguments like - 'oh but even a car without these is still safer than going on a bike' - should just be dispensed with. Well then - one could argue that pedestrians on Indian streets are at even greater risk.

Last edited by wilful : 9th June 2014 at 12:19.
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Old 9th June 2014, 12:56   #21
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by adneo View Post
Incase you want a rear wiper please get it done from outside but that will void your warranty.

No tell me folks what kind of nonsense is this?
Are we all taken for granted in this country?
An entry level hatch doesnt have rear AC vents hence if i have to rely on the ac to cool the chamber to clear the rear windshield it takes ages.

Its really hard to drive in heavy rainfall as i cant see anything approaching from behind.

Neither an entry level buyer is provided with this basic safety feature nor do they let you have the option incase you are smart enough to understand the importance of this utility they will not let you get it without any damage to you ie. voiding you warranty.
So incase you are looking for rear defogger or wiper please shell out an extra Lakh or two to promote your car shortlist to the next level for something which probably costs in hundreds or at max a thousand!
Sir,
For you i will suggest just get the things done still if it voids the warranty. As safety comes first.

In India still cars are considered as luxury. 90% of the Indians think when they promote from a 2 wheeler to a 4 wheeler they are in safe custody. Yesterday i was driving on a highway and i have noticed 99.9% drivers were not wearing seat belts. The reason is cops do not catch on the highways! So manufactures do take advantage of the illiteracy of the common people of India.

Here the Alto k10 is considered as an entry level hatch and is priced below 4 lakhs on road. Now if they give air bag, rear defogger , abs or other safety features the cars price will be up by a lakh and will land up in the swift territory. So i bet then 90% people will buy the swift (without safety feature) barring the K10(with safety features). Thats the sole reason they do not provide these in a entry level hatch back. Just for example Maruti has given driver side air bag for the Alto 800 Vxi. But how many Vxi do we see? Hardly 5% of the Alto 800 are vxi. Rest all settles with the Lx or the Lxi. With the price of Alto 800 Vxi people opt for the Wagon R or Celerio or other products in that price range.

In India before we criticize the manufacturer we have to increase the safety awareness in our general public first. Manufacturer's are business persons and they will definitely take advantage of the weak point of their customers. Our government has to be strict. When common public is not aware of safety the Indian Government should take up the matter and make rules like cars with minimum safety features should be made mandatory.

Even i know a guy at Delhi who keeps his Air Bag deactivated in his Skoda Superb as his version is in case of a collision if the Air bag deploys it will be very costly to replace + he thinks airbags deploy under hard barking also!
If this can be a notion from a guy using a Skoda Superb then we can very well make an estimate of the knowledge of the general car users of India!

Cars tested with 6 air bags in a crash test get 5 starts and the manufacturer gives an add of the same car with 5 star safety rating. An Indian customer goes and buy the base version of the same car with out any air bags thinking he uses a car with 5 star safety rating!!! More over on further inquiry we can find the car with 6 air bag is also not sold in India, the Indian version gets 2 or 4 air bags but the add will come with 5 star safety ratings and below with a small '* mark' it will be written 'terms and condition's apply'. One can hardly see that line as it will be written with the smallest font available and nor the sales person will tell about it!

These example very well sums up why the manufacturers make a fool out of Indian Customers.

Last edited by Samba : 9th June 2014 at 12:58.
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Old 9th June 2014, 13:31   #22
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
An excellent article debunking the Munde - Seat Belt debate.

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/sta...s-life-1994048
The author starts on a slippery slope and there is looking back. Can't believe editors publish such articles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacman2881 View Post
So, the real world impact of enforcing strict seat belt laws could potentially reduce road fatalities by a mere 1%.
The author arrives at 1% figure this way:

For starters, over 60% of road fatalities occur on our national and state highways. Pedestrians and bicyclists account for about 40% of fatalities. A further 26% fatalities are motorbike riders. Car occupants’ share of fatalities in Delhi is around 2-3%. After some number crunching, Professor Mohan estimates seat belts could have saved or have the potential of saving about 1% of lives lost in Delhi.

So the 1% is for city of Delhi only, if the seat belt is made mandatory.
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Old 9th June 2014, 13:37   #23
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by Samba View Post
Here the Alto k10 is considered as an entry level hatch and is priced below 4 lakhs on road. Now if they give air bag, rear defogger , abs or other safety features the cars price will be up by a lakh and will land up in the swift territory..
ABS+Airbags will increase cost for mfr by just 15K total, not 1 lakh.
And if its mandatory for all cars, then even swift price will increase by 25K or so not just Alto
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Old 9th June 2014, 13:57   #24
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
ABS+Airbags will increase cost for mfr by just 15K total, not 1 lakh.
And if its mandatory for all cars, then even swift price will increase by 25K or so not just Alto
Yes you are correct on the actual cost what should have been. I wrote the post based on the current Indian scenario. I gave the current pricing to lit up the matter how the car manufacturer's fool us exploiting the lack of knowledge of common people.. I sincerely hope if not the Indian people, government will atleast take care of the fact. So in future we can get all cars equipped with ABS and airbags with proper pricing.

Last edited by Samba : 9th June 2014 at 14:01.
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Old 9th June 2014, 14:22   #25
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Default re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Agree that pedestrian safety is poor here - but that is because we have too many pedestrians.
It's not as simple as that.

Lack of pedestrian safety is attributable to many factors such as absence of footpaths on the roads of most smaller cities and towns; footpaths being used for vehicle parking, forcing pedestrians to use the road; lack of knowledge about pedestrian safety - the average Indian driver on seeing a pedestrian crossing the road in front of him thinks it is the pedestrian who must stop; cars stopping after, not before the zebra crossing, etc.
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Old 10th June 2014, 14:06   #26
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

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Originally Posted by Samba View Post
Sir,
For you i will suggest just get the things done still if it voids the warranty. As safety comes first.

In India still cars are considered as luxury. 90% of the Indians think when they promote from a 2 wheeler to a 4 wheeler they are in safe custody. Yesterday i was driving on a highway and i have noticed 99.9% drivers were not wearing seat belts. The reason is cops do not catch on the highways! So manufactures do take advantage of the illiteracy of the common people of India.
Thanks for your time in going through my post.
This is where the Govt plays a part.They need to mandate the basic and not so costly safety features to be a part of all tiers of the variants.I remember i had come across a post in T-BHP that the basic version of Alto K10 was sold in Honduras with black bumpers but it still had the rear defogger and wipper.

The govt needs mandate basic safety feature just like they did with the seat belt.If i remember correctly seat belts where also a addon sometime in the 90s and they were not present in dail drives like Ambassador Taxis and other entry level cars. But once the Govt made it mandatory they had to bring them in.
This is foolish and outrageous that these manufacturers dare to sell BASIC and cheap to acquire safety features like rear defogger and wiper as a premium feature meant for the elite.
The govt should take a strong stand so that there is a bare minimum safety equipment list in all the entry level vehicles as those are the vehicles which run the most.

How dare these folks sitting in their offices deprive the common man who wishes to enjoy the pleasure of driving off the basic safety?!

I am saying this not because i cant afford a sedan, infact we have 2 back at home.

I am saying this because i suffer now as a result of choosing a car which serves my purpose but gets beat when its pouring down heavily especially in the night.

One day in the winters i saw a family stranded in their Alto K10 on the Highway. On asking what happened , they said they could not drive as there was dense fog and they didnt have fog lamps! I offered to lead them as i was the PRIVILEGED owner of a VXI trim with fog lamps!

The Govt needs to act.

Safety should not be a privilege, it should be a mandate.
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Old 10th June 2014, 14:41   #27
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Although someone dead is not good news, in the case of Munde it is heartening to note that his death has caused people to take note of road safety.

Coming to airbags, if the govt mandates Airbags, Maruti might put two airbags in its Alto, but that will not make the Alto a safe car, will it? The want for safety cars should come from the people and not from the govt. Only then the manufacturers would make truly safe cars. Else they would just "comply" with the norms, still leaving the cars vulnerable.

If only Munde wanted to travel in a car with side airbags and wore the seat belt...
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Old 10th June 2014, 15:47   #28
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

I guess we shouldn't deviate from the topic, by talking about people's mindset, education etc. Educating people about road safety is definitely important, but that's not what we are talking about here.

We are talking about the flip side of the coin, which is, why the car companies refuse to offer Safety features that cost zilch, even as an option, in all their variants.

We have car manufacturers selling 20+ year old models today and making windfall gains. And now, they are asking for tax sops from the new government!!
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Old 10th June 2014, 16:17   #29
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Nice article. From the article it looks like cars fully manufactured in India are cheaper here than abroad, while CKD cars are more expensive, which is understandable given the higher component costs and higher tax.

On safety features, once it is made mandatory prices will drop. We will have suppliers setup local manufacturing units to meet this requirement. I'm sure today's requirement in India is too small for any supplier to manufacture locally - mainly airbags.

On the comments here that replacement costs are 80k - 1L.., well everything in the aftermarket is priced at least 2.5 times the OE price . This is where OEM's make a lot of their money.
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Old 10th June 2014, 16:18   #30
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Default Re: Safety Features - Myths on costs debunked

Very useful information. I guess these safety features (Airbags + ABS) should be made mandatory by the Government while redrafting the Indian Motor Vehicle Law.

What surprises me is that, majority of manufacturers don't mind providing features in the form of entertainment systems,Stop/Start System, Steering mounted controls and many more while still not providing important safety features in a vehicles base and middle variant.
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