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Old 26th June 2014, 11:10   #61
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
I think the issue runs deeper than the German Engineering (or its flaws).
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...not-india.html (Skoda Superb DSG 7 Speed DQ200 failures- China gets official reaction, why not India?)
Problem being faced by the customer of German Engineering since 2009.
Acknowledged by VAG in 2012!
Gives 10 years warranty support in China after recall, but absolutely mum in India.
DSG is cutting edge technology. Please name one other brand that has introduced anything comparable in the 5L-10L segment. It is funny how everyone is going nuts over AMT, which is nothing but a "smart" box on top of a regular MT. Why? Probably because Maruti introduced it!

And why blame VW for wanting to brush it under the carpet in India? I agree that their handling of the situation is not exactly commendable, but which other manufacturer has done voluntary mass recalls? The necessary laws in India are non-existent, and every automobile company has taken advantage of it.

BTW the DSG failures were not exactly a secret at the time of the GT TSI's India launch. So those who bought it were taking a calculated risk.

Last edited by TheLizardKing : 26th June 2014 at 11:23. Reason: Corrections
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Old 26th June 2014, 11:30   #62
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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Problem being faced by the customer of German Engineering since 2009, acknowledged by VAG in 2012!

Gives 10 years warranty support in China after recall, but absolutely mum in India.
Indeed, there were quite a few issues with the DSG in India too, but those were primarily on petrol cars, perhaps because that DQ200 gearbox was running right on the limit of its performance. The issue lay with the mechatronics unit, and there have been several reports on the forum of VAG replacing it gratis as a goodwill gesture even outside the warranty issue.

Thankfully, a change of oil from synthetic to mineral seems to have nixed the issue. Haven't seen nearly as many issues of late.

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DSG failures were not exactly a secret at the time of the GT TSI's India launch. So those who bought it were taking a calculated risk.
I don't think it was a risk. The GT TSI produces nowehere near enough power to take the DQ200 to its torque limit (unless you go crazy with a remap) and if anything it is quite a safe bet when it comes to the reliability of the gearbox alone. The DQ200 concerns were serious concerns some years back, but they seem to be largely sorted now.
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Old 26th June 2014, 12:18   #63
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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DSG is cutting edge technology. Please name one other brand that has introduced anything comparable in the 5L-10L segment. It is funny how everyone is going nuts over AMT, which is nothing but a "smart" box on top of a regular MT. Why? Probably because Maruti introduced it!
Even I find it funny that AMT is being hyped by Suzuki. But are the customers really catching the bait?

And I still don't get why you are defending the cutting edge technology even if it doesn't work. The number 1 job of a car is to provide locomotion from Point A to Point B.

A car is a car because it moves. If it doesn't it is a metal box with glass windows. Performance, technology, desirability, appeal comes later.

Perhaps for a person having 10 vehicles in the stable - the priorities might be different since there will always be a vehicle available. But I still believe Locomotion is the first duty of a vehicle, and that is why people buy cars that work. Ever tried selling a car that cannot start and run in front of the buyer?

OK lets come back to earth from the lofty mountains of DSGville.
Fuel pump?
EGR cooler?

What is so cutting edge in these?

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And why blame VW for wanting to brush it under the carpet in India?
You are right the whole DSG fiasco has two elements to it:
1. Technical. VAG produced an unreliable product that couldn't work properly. The german engineers need to be flogged for this.
2. Legal. VAG played dilly dally with Indian customers. The legal lackeys really deserve a pat on their back for saving loads of money and still being on the right side of the law.

Last edited by alpha1 : 26th June 2014 at 12:20.
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Old 26th June 2014, 12:26   #64
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

I would like to know how VW has projected the 8% market share. The way they are moving, it looks highly impossible.


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Originally Posted by TheLizardKing View Post
DSG is cutting edge technology. Please name one other brand that has introduced anything comparable in the 5L-10L segment. It is funny how everyone is going nuts over AMT, which is nothing but a "smart" box on top of a regular MT. Why? Probably because Maruti introduced it!

And why blame VW for wanting to brush it under the carpet in India? I agree that their handling of the situation is not exactly commendable, but which other manufacturer has done voluntary mass recalls? The necessary laws in India are non-existent, and every automobile company has taken advantage of it.

BTW the DSG failures were not exactly a secret at the time of the GT TSI's India launch. So those who bought it were taking a calculated risk.
Funny that how any discussion particularly against VW finally tides towards counter-striking Maruti.

And to answer your question, a few of the recalls made in India which I can remember at the moment :

1. Mahindra,
2. Ford,
3. General Motors,
4. Nissan,
5. Toyota,
6. Honda and
7. finally Maruti (again).
8. Honda 2 wheelers also issued a recall for CBR250R.


Not long before, Mahindra replaced the entire engine of an XUV which belonged to our FM. I remember another incident when the entire engine with transmission was replaced by Honda for CBR250R for another forum member. Not saying that these companies have done any favour going out of the way for these customers; just whatever they did is commendable and this is what brings goodwill. This month only, my car's entire HVAC system service charges were waived off because the ASC themselves were not satisfied with their own job; despite a good improvement in cooling. This is how goodwill is built. Else every manufacturer is producing good bikes & cars here.

If DSG failures were not 'exactly a secret' then it was grossly unethical for VW to sell it without fixing the issue. And if countries except India has got official reactions to failing DSGs, then VW is to be blamed, apart from lousy Indian laws. Every automobile company has taken advantages of these laws, but even after operating within that very environment, they have also issued recalls because they are serious with the Indian market. I don't know why if the company is itself not serious in building a good market here, why the people should be worried. And even blamed (for driving those 'tinny' cars which actually work, heck, everytime)!

If VW wants to achieve this unrealistic target, then it must:

1. Build cars which is suitable for Indian conditions, weather, fuel quality. A lot of cases we hear are stated to be due to bad fuel quality. If VW cars have to run here, they must learn to drink the Indian fuel, whether it is good or bad in taste. All others are doing it.

2. Build a goodwill among the existing customers which can act like a magnet for prospective customers. This starts from building good service reputation: means better problem diagnostic skills, spare parts availability, may be cheaper rates by localization, and by being humble.

3. Learn to say sorry. It does not destroys your reputation. It helps build trust.

These things will go long way in making VW a desirable brand in India. Not sure about that 8%, but surely it will do much much better, and who knows, it may surpass their own target after a few years if things go in correct direction!

Last edited by saket77 : 26th June 2014 at 12:56.
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Old 26th June 2014, 13:40   #65
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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And I still don't get why you are defending the cutting edge technology even if it doesn't work.
There are people who would like to have cutting edge technology in their products. And such products are unsuitable for people who want reliability. For them there is a Maruti of every conceivable size. Why do people want every brand to be another Maruti?
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The number 1 job of a car is to provide locomotion from Point A to Point B.
Okay, but since this is Team-BHP and not Team-Commuter, I expect to see people who look at cars as something more than boxes that take them from point A to point B.

Last edited by blacksport : 26th June 2014 at 14:00.
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Old 26th June 2014, 14:21   #66
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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There are people who would like to have cutting edge technology in their products. And such products are unsuitable for people who want reliability. For them there is a Maruti of every conceivable size. Why do people want every brand to be another Maruti?


Okay, but since this is Team-BHP and not Team-Commuter, I expect to see people who look at cars as something more than boxes that take them from point A to point B.
The difference between Team-BHP and Team-commuter is more BHP, more torque, better acceleration, more featues, better looks etc. ect. But both classes want cars which move from from point A to point B, some taking economy route, some taking style or luxury route and some taking performance route. But move, the cars must. What use is all that cutting edge technology of, if it breaks down at the drop of a hat? Sorry, but I do not agree here. A car has to be reliable which is the number 1 criteria.
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Old 26th June 2014, 14:47   #67
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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DSG is cutting edge technology. Please name one other brand that has introduced anything comparable in the 5L-10L segment. It is funny how everyone is going nuts over AMT, which is nothing but a "smart" box on top of a regular MT. Why? Probably because Maruti introduced it!
DSG is indeed cutting-edge technology. But not the DSG in these cars, most certainly not the one in the new Octavia that's for sure.

Keeping it simple is key, IMO. DSG is great and all, but not only is it heavy, it's complicated. And as we all know from various threads on the forum, they can break down.

That's the reason behind the AMT rage. It's simple, economical and effective.

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And why blame VW for wanting to brush it under the carpet in India?
You can't be serious.

Are you suggesting that the manner in which these incidents were handled is acceptable? Does VW need laws to make them understand that selling faulty cars to their customers is just plain wrong?
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Old 26th June 2014, 15:31   #68
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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You can't be serious.

Are you suggesting that the manner in which these incidents were handled is acceptable? Does VW need laws to make them understand that selling faulty cars to their customers is just plain wrong?
I go on to say that "I agree that their handling of the situation is not exactly commendable, but which other manufacturer has done voluntary mass recalls? The necessary laws in India are non-existent, and every automobile company has taken advantage of it." And calling the GT TSI a faulty car is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it?

And yes if each and every one was honest and upright in all our dealings, we wouldn't need the courts and the law. But the sad truth is that we are not, and that is why we have laws. And we have lawyers for finding and exploiting loopholes in them.

I (and some others like me) feel that this forum has been a bit harsh on VW. Most of us have heard of, and a few of us have had, bad experiences with their products and services. But there is a good number of us here who love our German princesses. To borrow a popular ad slogan, VW tedha hai par mera hai.
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Old 26th June 2014, 15:35   #69
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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but which other manufacturer has done voluntary mass recalls? The necessary laws in India are non-existent, and every automobile company has taken advantage of it.
A few companies in India, operating within the same legal environment have been responsible enough to recall their cars. Little earlier, I have posted the names of a few - in this page only.
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Old 26th June 2014, 16:42   #70
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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I go on to say that "I agree that their handling of the situation is not exactly commendable, but which other manufacturer has done voluntary mass recalls? The necessary laws in India are non-existent, and every automobile company has taken advantage of it."
That does not justify VW's callousness. As Saket has mentioned, several companies have indeed issued official recalls.

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And calling the GT TSI a faulty car is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it?
Well, it's equipped with a gearbox that can go wrong, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by TheLizardKing View Post
And yes if each and every one was honest and upright in all our dealings, we wouldn't need the courts and the law. But the sad truth is that we are not, and that is why we have laws. And we have lawyers for finding and exploiting loopholes in them.
OT

In every field, service or otherwise, there is something called 'ethics'. If you don't have that, you can't expect business to do well for too long.

In my honest opinion, VW has no right to cry foul and say that the Indian Market is tough when they're going around swapping OE parts with replicas, equipping their cars with dodgy gearboxes and generally being a pain in the be-hind in so far as after-sales-service is concerned.

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I (and some others like me) feel that this forum has been a bit harsh on VW.
Well, you know what they say. You tend to be tougher on the ones you dearly love.
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Old 26th June 2014, 16:58   #71
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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But the sad truth is that we are not, and that is why we have laws. And we have lawyers for finding and exploiting loopholes in them.

I (and some others like me) feel that this forum has been a bit harsh on VW.
Such laws are applicable to Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and the rest. They are not crying and making sounds about the laws in India. Aren't they selling cars happily and servicing them too? Why is that VW/Skoda are crying foul?

The foul cry happens only to hide one's incompetence and failure. VW can neither sell cars well nor service them so why on earth are they here in India? I find a bit silly to see such statements by the top-managements.

We as a forum being harsh on VW, I guess you are taking it personal. I love Honda and Maruti Suzuki, there are many thread and you can find me posting there about scolding Maruti and Honda but that should be taken positively. If taken positively the mistakes won't repeat. I fail to understand why VW is not learning even after seeing Skoda getting thrashed in India!

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In every field, service or otherwise, there is something called 'ethics'. If you don't have that, you can't expect business to do well for too long.

Anurag.
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Old 26th June 2014, 17:27   #72
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

I am not sure why cutting edge technology has to be complicated and un-reliable. They should try to make it simpler (like AMT I am sure you can make this better also) if they cant implement it without it going broke.
Like I say to my pupils, if you cant implement a simpler (by breaking down complex issues) solution, you haven't solved the complex issue.

Last edited by srishiva : 26th June 2014 at 17:28.
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Old 26th June 2014, 17:51   #73
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I am not sure why cutting edge technology has to be complicated and un-reliable. They should try to make it simpler (like AMT I am sure you can make this better also) if they cant implement it without it going broke.
Like I say to my pupils, if you cant implement a simpler (by breaking down complex issues) solution, you haven't solved the complex issue.
Anything that has more components is less reliable than something with less components, as there are more components that can fail. For example a NA engine is more reliable than a turbocharged engine, as the NA engine will never get a turbo failure.

New technology takes time to mature. there are people who like trying out new technology while some stick to old (tried-and-tested) ones. When the Ecosport came, I jumped at the possibility of owning a DCT and jumped at it. My phone runs a Windows Phone Developer preview while a stable previous version is available. And from morning am refreshing this link to download the new Android lollipop (http://developer.android.com/preview/index.html).

You may consider us the guinea pigs who use these products so that you can adopt them when they become mature. And if companies like VW become companies like Maruti, the world would never get a DSG. They would be forever running on tried-and-tested technologies.

And for people who don't like being guinea pigs, there is always Maruti.

Last edited by blacksport : 26th June 2014 at 17:53.
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Old 26th June 2014, 20:54   #74
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Default Re: Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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In every field, service or otherwise, there is something called 'ethics'. If you don't have that, you can't expect business to do well for too long.
Talking about ethics in the Indian automobile industry (excuse me for going slightly ), this thought came to me as I was driving home), what stops Maruti and the others from offering airbags in their cars? Is it ethics or is it the lax Indian safety laws? Does Maruti (and every other OEM) need laws to make them understand that selling death traps to their customers is just plain wrong?

Oh and guess which is the ONLY car manufacturer in India that now offers airbags as standard across all trims of its entry level car?

Last edited by TheLizardKing : 26th June 2014 at 21:02.
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Old 26th June 2014, 21:15   #75
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Default Reality check for VW: Lowers marketshare target for India

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Anything that has more components is less reliable than something with less components, as there are more components that can fail. For example a NA engine is more reliable than a turbocharged engine, as the NA engine will never get a turbo failure.

.

If you believe that, the future doesn't look very promising! Luckily, history has proven you wrong. Let me give a very simple example. Aviation: the number of components on and complexity of planes has risen sharply over the last decades. However, in that same time aviation safety has increased dramatically.

If you look at car statistics in a meaningful way you will find the same trend. Do you really think a T-Ford is more reliable then the latest Mercedes E class because it has fewer components?

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 26th June 2014 at 21:21.
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