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Old 6th September 2014, 15:53   #31
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Default Re: India: Hybrid or Electric variants for all cars?

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Dear AD, excellent thread to start and one which I believe over the next 5 years will have very different arguments on it It will take time but it will happen even within the lifetimes of middle aged folks like me.
Narayan Sir, to further substantiate your insightful and very encouraging views, I am hereby posting a few details/ statistics which I have read and bookmarked.

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The National Electric Mobility Mission Plan (NEMMP) expects that 92% of all consumed crude oil will be imported by 2020. Electric transport is seen as a lever to reduce crude demand. EV uptake can help reduce overall oil deficit and/or re-direct crude to stimulate energy-intensive export sectors like mining, manufacturing, and agriculture.
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Subsidy on Hybrid & Electric Cars to increase-fig2a.jpg

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After referring to these figures, and seeing the amount of importance being paid to these ideas, I actually don't feel that having Electric and Hybrid variants for cars in India is that far a reality which appears as impossible/ non-feasible to be achieved. India as a country may surely lack behind in developing the infrastructure at present but for sure there is a thought process in the minds of planners of how to bring Hybrids and electric cars to India in next 5 years as they definitely see a market for the same here.

Here is a table to indicate the mindset of major automotive players in India regarding the electric/ Hybrid vehicle launch in respective segments by 2015.

Blue shade show existing vehicles in Electric/ Hybrid category, Pink color shows the future launches and Gray color is for international launches by these brands.

Subsidy on Hybrid & Electric Cars to increase-fig2b-1.jpg

All the figures and reports have been compiled in August 2013.

For more details please check here.

It is actually highly imperative for one to refer the stats and figures and then try to collaborate them with reality.

Thanks

Last edited by ad3952n : 6th September 2014 at 16:22. Reason: More statistics added.
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Old 6th September 2014, 17:03   #32
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Default Re: India: Hybrid or Electric variants for all cars?

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Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj View Post
If the technology is available and still not being effectively used by even the most developed nations, then there has to be strong reasons behind it.
Dear ajaypjayaraj, First to answer your question. The nation leading the world in all electric cars as a percentage of its total cars registered is Norway with the figure at 4%. Other countries in the top 10 are Denmark, Sweden, France and Japan. Of these 5 countries France, Sweden & Denmark do not produce any electricity any more by burning hydrocarbons. All their electricity is nuclear or hydro and in the case of France solar. The reason all electric cars are taking time to get popular is our egos that want horsepower under the hood several times more than what is needed to move our backs a few tens of kilometres a day around the city. We revel in 240 horsepower under the hood, in accelerating fom 0 to 100 kmph in 9 seconds. Pray why is this needed if what you need 99% of the time is to travel at an average speed of 25 kmph, 50 kms a day. Those are my thrifty views sir which I am sure many on Team BHP will not like.

Dear BHPians,

The issue is not of internal combustion cars versus all electrics. The bigger issue is public transportation across our very large cities and the need for 4 tiers of transport ( for example rapid-mass i.e. metro; rapid-medium i.e. bus; local -micro i.e. autos for twos and threes; and long distance 4 wheel taxis) that are available in adequate quantity and are inter linked with each other and at least one of them is available within 300 metres of your home/workplace/destination. Unfortunately our municipalities and those that run them have not yet demonstrated the competence to think through and implement complex projects - the noteworthy exception being Mr E.Sreedharan of Delhi Metro fame. Eventually the continuation of the IC car and the success of the electric car will be a function of long term public transport policy. Public buses going hybrid is something I foresee in the next 10 years in India. Personal cars will inevitably be the last to change due to resistance from greedy upper segments of society of which we all are members (self included). But this change will come and economics more than anything else will drive it. Why economics -- the 3rd world, the BRICS have just started their journey to economic emancipation. Today only the 90 crore people who constitute the 'West' have large car ownership per 1000 of population. Pray what will be the price of a barrel of crude when India and China's combined 270 crore start owning even 100 cars per 1000 of population!! What will be the price of oil then -- $200 a barrel? $ 300 a barrel?

The venerable and much loved internal combustion wont go away. My guess is that 50 years hence you will find it in specialized uses like trucks, earth moving equipment, mobile cranes etc because in terms of density of energy we are not likely to develop anything close to petroleum for a very long time.

The big challenge of waste disposal or recycling of batteries is the elephant in the room for which answer need to be developed yet.

Till then it maybe a useful idea to install a 15 amp point at your parking spot if that is feasible.

Welcome everyone's inputs. The more disagreement the merrier. AD rocks.
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Old 6th September 2014, 17:28   #33
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Dear ajaypjayaraj, First to answer your question...
I am not sure about that first point. I think electric motors are very capable of high torque and when it comes to 0 - 100 they can challenge the IC motors. And our egos can't be the reason governments don't encourage developing and using alternate fuel cars. What you are explaining is something different.

I think oil majors could be playing a role in slowing down alternate fuel technology. Add to it other reasons like developing batteries more cheaper, their disposal etc. All these are the actual challenges IMO compared to the ego and need for higher BHP.

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Last edited by Rudra Sen : 6th September 2014 at 19:34.
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Old 6th September 2014, 18:30   #34
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Default Re: India: Hybrid or Electric variants for all cars?

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Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj View Post
Add to it other reasons like developing batteries more cheaper, their disposal etc.
You are right. Last year I had visited Japan to understand EV/Hybrid technology of Toyota. Finally it all comes down to Batteries.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...nce-japan.html (Toyota Hybrid Technology: Drive & Experience @ Japan)
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Old 6th September 2014, 18:51   #35
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You are right. Last year I had visited Japan to understand EV/Hybrid technology of Toyota. Finally it all comes down to Batteries.



http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...nce-japan.html (Toyota Hybrid Technology: Drive & Experience @ Japan)

I think producing energy is not as big a barrier today as storing it when it comes to electric cars or electric equipments. Remember the movie 'Knight and Day'? If some guy successfully makes that fiction a reality, he is gonna be the richest guy in the world. Or he'l be killed or go missing!
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Old 8th September 2014, 12:29   #36
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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
AD, Can you answer a few questions:

1) What about the shortage of electricity supply that some cities / towns that witness in India?

2) What about the power cuts that we are facing currently? (to get you a feel, we here in Hyderabad have 4-6 hours of powercut everyday in residential areas whereas the industries have 2 full days of power cut in a week and the rest of the 4 days 6 hours power cut).

3) Subsidies - From the government, what about this?

4) Demand, though this will come if prices are range of usage increase.

Anurag.
Hybrid vehicles do not require any electricity. The batteries are charged by the pertrol engine.

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Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
100% agree with you! India suffers extensively from a polluted environment more than any other country and Diesel/ Petrol vehicles have a major share in it. Just like with the introduction of LPG and CNG, the govt. installed the requisite infrastructure similarly for selling these cars appropriate arrangements can be done and these Electric/ Hybrid vehicles might surely become the next big thing here.

As far as giving benefits to the buyers is concerned, I surely agree that if given a good deal then the buyers can surely go in for buying these cars. I mean as it is we get a number of benefits for buying the diesel or petrol car from dealers et al.

Also, you will agree that the running cost of an electric car is cheaper than diesel or petrol car and these hybrid and electric cars are cheaper to maintain too.

Thanks
Hybrid vehicles do not require any infrastructure at all. The battery is charged by the petrol engine and is not plugged in (except in some rare models).

I drove a Toyota Prius in the US for 8 years and I loved that car. Apart from great mileage, it is wonderful to have the car keep the petrol engine off while stopped at a signal or while waiting. The car is so quiet and high tech. However, when it comes to mileage and the additional expense on the hybrid power train, it is not financially worthwhile even in the US with various government subsidies. Hybrid components add about 5K $ to the price. I would do it again as I love the technology. My mileage was around 55 miles per gallon or 23 kmpl and this was with very gentle driving. The official mileage given by Toyota/ EPA (US version of ARAI) is less than this. Now if we spend an extra 3-5 lakhs and get around 20 kmpl on petrol, it is obviously better to get a diesel City/ Vento or equivalent that provides better mileage on a cheaper fuel. However, a hybrid is much better for the environment. Until and unless we have substantial government concessions on hybrids such as zero duty, no VAT, free registration and maybe a subsidy of a few lakhs, hybrids won't take off in India. If we can get a Toyota Prius for the same price it is sold in the US which is around 25K $ (15 lakhs), then it becomes a good value.


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Last edited by Rudra Sen : 8th September 2014 at 13:43.
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Old 8th September 2014, 13:04   #37
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Default Re: India: Hybrid or Electric variants for all cars?

Key points for everyone, hybrid/ electric cars have additional weight of batteries. Such batteries are also usually of the cost range of a small car by themselves unless subsidised by the government. These are actually the biggest hurdles faced by companies like Nissan and Tesla.

Recently, Tesla had to go for carbon fiber reinforced underbody protection covers for Model S to protect the battery from under scrapes and damages. Can an Indian maker have such parts at the price points we are used to (Sub 5 Lacs or 10 Lacs?)
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Old 9th September 2014, 10:29   #38
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Default Re: India: Hybrid or Electric variants for all cars?

I saw lots of Toyota Prius Taxis in Colombo ,they have around 300% import duty on Automobiles which is waved off for Hybrid and electric vehicles so hybrids are cost effective there.

However coming to environment point of view yes any kind of manufacturing be it of Lithium battery or drilling for oil it is bound to generate pollutants.

So the question should be is it good enough to offset the impact of manufacturing and disposing Lithium batteries ?

The priority should be to manufacture lighter and more fuel efficient cars and hybridization comes secondary.

Last edited by amitk26 : 9th September 2014 at 10:31.
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Old 13th October 2014, 18:43   #39
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Default Re: Subsidy on Hybrid & Electric Cars to increase

The Delhi government is making the purchase of electric vehicles attractive for customers by announcing subsidies on them.

Link to Team-BHP News Article
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Old 14th October 2014, 13:13   #40
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Default Re: Subsidy on Hybrid & Electric Cars to increase

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Under the scheme, a subsidy of 15% on the MRP of the vehicle is directly transferred to the customerís bank account within two months from the date of purchase. Apart from this, there is zero VAT charged and the road tax on electric vehicles has been slashed by 50%. The government claims that this move will benefit the end consumer since it is speedy and transparent. More than 45,000 customers who purchased electric scooters are believed to have benefited from the subsidies so far.
This is great news! However has it really been implemented yet? The dealers as well as the RTO need to be in the loop for this to finally have effective, however often the execution is where the govt fails in.

If this is truly in effect then a BMW Active7 could cost nearly as much as a 730Ld OTR. The Camry Hybrid too could cost as much as a Skoda Superb OTR.

Has anyone confirmed this with the dealers?
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Old 14th October 2014, 14:24   #41
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Default Re: Subsidy on Hybrid & Electric Cars to increase

Is this limited to fully electric vehicles or do hybrid cars also fall under the scheme?
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