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Old 24th September 2014, 02:19   #16
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Default Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

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Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
If they are going to add a battery pack for extra 35 kms range, Then I am sure it will be a market Dud. For maintaining the battery and also paying a higher initial cost, I am better off paying for Fuel for that extra 25 kms.

In USA, cruising speed is 70 mph or 112 kmh. In india, The safe speed to travel around 80-90 kmph only. So, in a 1.5 4 cylinder motor, one cylinder can be cut out and it could function as a 3 cylinder 1.2 cylinder motor. today, a 1.2 motor can easily do 80-90kmph cruise.
Maruti's Hybrid is mostly going to be like the swift hybrid.Where the engine sole job is to generate electricity for charging the batteries or directly supplying the electric motor with current.

So a small battery makes sense since this is a hybrid not a Plug In Electric Vehicle or EV .

When you are at traffic stop the engine can shutdown and use only the battery power for air conditioner or acceleration or slow bumper to bumper crawl speed and as when the battery depletes ,the engine will kick in to generate electricity .This way there is less pollution to other motorist in a traffic stop especially to two wheelers and traffic cops.

Secondly by using the engine as a generator ,the engine is going to run at a constant RPM at its most efficient state, there by further saving fuel.
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Old 24th September 2014, 14:45   #17
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Default Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

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Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
Do you think hybrid cars will work in India when driven in bumper to bumper traffic, say being used as a daily office commute. The average speed of driving in India is 20 kmph durng peak hours / in business district.

Say I commute to work between 9-6 in any city. Hybrid mode works below 20-25 kmph , post which the "engine" kicks in. In say Bangalore or Chennai or Mumbai, the average vehicle moves only at that speed.
Again, we have exactly the kind of driving conditions that hybrids are built for. Their fuel efficiency gains are higher in the city than on a freeway.

There is no one type of hybrid technology; actually, there are several (parallel, series-parallel, plug-in etc.). The ones most suitable for India could be those that use 100% battery power at low speeds. If my rush-hour commute is 20 kms one way, I could easily cover 75 - 100% of that on the battery alone.

Even in a hybrid where the electric motor works parallel to / 'assists' the petrol, the fuel efficiency gains are easily 25 - 30%.

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Originally Posted by Horizon81 View Post
Prius is a plug-in hybrid that depends on an external source for recharging the batteries.
Note that the Prius also has a non-plugin version.
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Old 24th September 2014, 15:02   #18
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Post Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

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Note that the Prius also has a non-plugin version.
Please ignore my ignorance I wasn't aware of it, just wanted to give an example for a plug-in hybrid.
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Old 24th September 2014, 21:19   #19
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Default Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

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Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
Do you think hybrid cars will work in India when driven in bumper to bumper traffic, say being used as a daily office commute. The average speed of driving in India is 20 kmph durng peak hours / in business district.

Say I commute to work between 9-6 in any city. Hybrid mode works below 20-25 kmph , post which the "engine" kicks in. In say Bangalore or Chennai or Mumbai, the average vehicle moves only at that speed.

This would give minimum or no time for the battery to charge back. I dont think it will work. Hybrid would work in foreign countries, where there are reduced speed limits fora temporary period (say consturction)and then the speed is upto 60 mph. This is when a hybrid works. Hybrid also works at parking in shopping malls and similar where the speed is less.

- I hope the hybrid in this scenario means a true hybrid like the Prius and not some gimmick like "Micro Hybrid" .
Having driven a Toyota Prius in the US for over 8 years, I can assure you that Indian conditions are perfect for hybrids. More stop and go traffic you have, the better mileage the hybrid system provides. Battery charging doesn't work in the manner assumed here. Whenever the driver takes his/ her foot off the accelerator, the battery gets charged by the motion of the car. In addition, when you brake, regenerative braking charges the battery. If your speed remains low for a long time, say over 10 minutes at a time stuck in a jam, then the car would remain mostly on battery till the battery gets low. After this time, the car will simply start the engine a bit more often till the battery gets charged a little bit more, that's all. It might run on petrol only for say 5 minutes after being stuck/ very slow for every 15 minutes. Hence the result is that if you have a slow down or a stoppage of say 3-4 minutes followed by a drive of say 1-2 kms, your battery gets charged normally. If you have a prolonged slow down, then you would simply run your petrol engine for about 30% of the time to charge the battery. This is still much better than running it 100% of the time you are stuck in traffic. 20 km per hour is perfect as every slow down and stop would charge the battery. You would end up driving about 50-60% on battery under these conditions and your mileage would improve drastically. In addition, when you are stopped, the hybrid is completely silent and is wasting very little battery.

In the US one often gets stuck in traffic jams that last for several hours and the hybrids provide excellent mileage under those conditions. Of course one needs to drive a hybrid with a very soft touch. If you accelerate quickly, the petrol engine kicks in quite often. Still, a hybrid would provide superior mileage under all conditions- even in pure non stop highway driving. I consistently got around 55 miles per gallon (23 kmpl) from my Prius and in stop and go driving my mileage would increase much more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
If they are going to add a battery pack for extra 35 kms range, Then I am sure it will be a market Dud. For maintaining the battery and also paying a higher initial cost, I am better off paying for Fuel for that extra 25 kms.

In USA, cruising speed is 70 mph or 112 kmh. In india, The safe speed to travel around 80-90 kmph only. So, in a 1.5 4 cylinder motor, one cylinder can be cut out and it could function as a 3 cylinder 1.2 cylinder motor. today, a 1.2 motor can easily do 80-90kmph cruise.
Cruising speed in the US is not 70 mph. Very few highways have this speed and only in stretches. Most highways have a speed limit of 55 to 65 mph. In any case, that doesn't mean that one simply drives at this speed throughout the country. Cities have much lower speeds with a lot of street lights and slow traffic. It is common to be stuck in a traffic jam of several hours on highways and when getting in and out of major cities. As one example, you can be stuck in a jam of 30 minutes to 1 hour (even 2 hours on bad days) to get in to or out of San Francisco or Los Angeles. You might be able to cruise at 70 mph in the desert of Arizona but you won't be able to do that in New York City just like you can cruise at 100 kmph on Yamuna Expressway but not while crossing Mumbai.

Hybrid batteries do not require any maintenance. The range isn't 25 kms. In fact you can only go about 2-4 kms on a fully charged battery and that too if you drive very slowly. The benefit is that your engine shuts down the moment you step off the accelerator and is also off during stoppages like traffic signals. In a minute, the engine can switch on and off dozens of times and the driver doesn't even notice it. This alone means that the engine if off around 30% of the time which increase your mileage significantly. In addition, you remain on battery for slow stop and go and the engine has to provide less power as it is supplemented by the electric motor. Finally, it takes a lot of energy to move the car from a stop. In a hybrid, this is done using the electric motor and the petrol engine kicks in after you attain a speed of around 40-50 kms. This saves a lot of fuel.

Last edited by Lobogris : 24th September 2014 at 21:22.
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Old 27th September 2014, 16:43   #20
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Default Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

Hybrid technology definitely is the way to go. I would really love my next car to be a Hybrid after seeing the Vezel Hybrid. The key to their success is car manufacturers charging a fair price for it. Hybrid technology is expensive for sure but they shouldnt overcharge for a hybrid version to heavily by trying to make use of the Indian mileage mentality.
A lot of Hybrid cars have optional aftermarket kits to make them even better. If I remember correctly the first couple of Prius generations could not be charged from a wall socket but aftermarket options were available to correct this as well as options for lithium battery replacements that improved the range, etc
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Old 10th April 2015, 13:19   #21
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Default Maruti Suzuki Contemplating Swift Hybrid for India!

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Feeling that hybrids are the near future in Indian automotive scene, Maruti Suzuki, the pioneer automobile maker and seller of India is contemplating bringing the Swift Hybrid to India named the Range Extender.

Powered with a 658cc, 3-cylinder petrol engine paired to a permanent magnet synchronous motor, the vehicle is claimed to return an impressive 48.2Km/l of mileage. The vehicle has an electric driving range of about 25.5 Kms. Despite being a smaller capacity engine, it is good for 73bhp. The Swift Range Extender weighs 1,600 Kg, and takes 1.5 hours to completely charge the lithium-ion battery through a 200V socket.

Also the Government of India recently introduced the FAME India Scheme (Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Hybrid and Electric vehicles in India) as a part the National Electric Mobility Mission Plan. Under the new scheme, the Government will offer incentives on electric and hybrid vehicles upto Rs. 29,000 for two-wheelers and Rs. 1.38 lakh for cars. Since then, Tata Motors and MSIL were expected to bring in their technologies in the segment.

Source: http://auto.ndtv.com/news/maruti-suz...from=home-auto
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Old 11th April 2015, 00:35   #22
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki Contemplating Swift Hybrid for India!

More than the hybrid, it would be good if they bring with a good AT versions. Hybrids would make sense when govt starts showering with aids for such technologies. Till then it would be surely have a question on its viability.
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Old 11th April 2015, 10:32   #23
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki Contemplating Swift Hybrid for India!

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More than the hybrid, it would be good if they bring with a good AT versions. Hybrids would make sense when govt starts showering with aids for such technologies. Till then it would be surely have a question on its viability.
I guess the Govt. has announced some incentives to manufacturers treading into hybrid technologies. Please see the last para of the original post.
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Old 11th April 2015, 10:42   #24
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Default Re: Maruti Suzuki Contemplating Swift Hybrid for India!

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I guess the Govt. has announced some incentives to manufacturers treading into hybrid technologies. Please see the last para of the original post.
I did read that last para. My point being, both need to happen (product launch and the incentive) in time to see the product through. Of course there has to be a first step some where.
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Old 11th April 2015, 19:08   #25
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Default Re: Soon, affordable Hybrid cars from Maruti!

If this soft-pedaling is a requirement to derive good mileage numbers from such hybrids, could this make more sensible drivers out of the Maruti-buyer? Good move, bring them on.
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Old 3rd May 2015, 14:36   #26
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Question Electric Creep/Crawl Mode

I've been tinkering with this idea for quite a long time now.

We all know how stressful driving in the morning and evening rush hours esp those who drive for commute. It's a lot of stress fiddling with that hard clutch and the accelerator/brake pedals constantly for half an hour to an hour.

I wonder why the auto industry hasn't come up with something like a Creep mode using an electric motor coupled to the rear hub (for front wheel drive cars) which has enough torque to slowly accelerate (3 kmph/s?) the car from a stand still to say 15 kmph. If you do the math, it doesn't take a lot of torque to do that. If you have ever driven a electric scooter (usually equipped with a 250 W motor), you know what I'm talking about. A small electric motor can provide enough torque from stand still to accelerate a small car to crawling speeds.

In a simple enough setup, the electric motor can be directly powered by the alternator. Switch gear should be installed to only engage in neutral and cut off when brake is applied. Not that hard I would say. A super cap bank can be employed between the alternator and the motor to make work with current alternators (to regulate power demand).

This would take a lot of stress out of driving in heavy traffic and I believe would return better FE. This may be a cost effective value addition to small petrol city runabouts like an alto or nano (being rear wheel drive, would be slightly more difficult to implement though).

This can be engineered further to include solar panels and or home charging. 250 W solar panels are going at 15k INR and Li-ion batteries are become cheap by day. Also, going forward can be evolved to an automatic crawling mode like adaptive cruise control using sonar/proximity sensors.

I'm thinking of doing a project. Just thought it's a good idea to know what BHPians think about it.

Sreehari
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Old 4th May 2015, 11:39   #27
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Default Re: Electric Creep/Crawl Mode

How is this different from a Hybrid that is "fully-electric up till xx km/h"?
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Old 4th May 2015, 13:09   #28
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Default Re: Electric Creep/Crawl Mode

This is more in line with how AMT is not a 'real' auto box but works for India. If a manufacturer takes this up, this can be a 50k or less option package without any other modification to the car which will make a lot of sense. The whole point is about making the best value addition for money.

Btw, which exact hybrid are you talking about?
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Old 4th May 2015, 15:57   #29
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Default Re: Electric Creep/Crawl Mode

I'm not familiar with electronics at all, although I fully understood what you meant to communicate. It might help but it comes with the following hiccups (speaking mechanically of course), pardon me if I've not completely thought through the scenario from all directions.

1) Not all traffic in India is the same, traffic management is becoming more efficient so when a signal is released nowadays the traffic flows atleast at 20-30+kmph before coming to a halt. Yes in certain crawling speeds-consistent traffic like before toll-booths or in certain Mumbai gridlocks it will be useful

2) While the solar technology itself might come relatively cheap as you say, the company will surely charge much more owing to installation, sourcing costs and of course premium for the convenience. Big price to pay for the small convenience occasionally. Our public are very cost-conscious. Lithium-ion batteries maybe cheaper than before but its going to put quite a hole in the wallet given the capacity needed to power 2 wheels, not to mention replacement costs every 4-5 years. This is because the cost of say a 2000mAH phone battery today costs about Rs.2000+. A car backup battery would cost much more and also add to weight.

3) If its separate Lithium-ion battery driven wouldn't the alternator be strained a little more than usual since its powering 2 batteries? Assuming the feature isn't used at all wouldn't fuel consumption increase?

4) Some people take the foot off the brake pedal during traffic halts, me included. In this scenario a separate kill-switch has to be provided that would not activate the motor. That & a kill-signal has to programmed when activating hand-brake during the time people have to get out for a minute (shopping/opening gates etc) and do not wish to turn off the engine. That's a lot to think about when such technology is installed, could lead to minor errors.

5) Alternatively the crawl mode can be activated when the car is in neutral and one simply taps the accelerator. The constraint here is purely cost related.. more CAN bus programming, more complexities and more wiring. Of course here too one has to be careful not to go anywhere near the accelerator pedal if the intention is not to move.

6) Assuming one wants to immediately accelerate from the crawl mode then a kill-switch for the RWD has to programmed into the clutch as well and not just the brakes. Otherwise one has to literally stop before going into manual mode. Without that, conflicting signals will go to both the front & rear wheels and rear wheels might lock since their speed is low and they cant keep up with front ones.

Edit : 7) In the Indian scenario where two-wheelers, rickshaws etc cut left and right ahead of us during signals making us brake abruptly, a constant 3kmph acceleration upto 15 kmph may put one slower than the rest of the vehicles. If the vehicle is faster than the other vehicles then its going to lead to minor incidents.

8) Radar detectors for proximity control for front & rear, ensure more programming, wires & of course much more cost. If we add all the safety overrides for this technology the cost might be equal to or more than the price of a CVT/dual clutch auto box.

Last edited by dark.knight : 4th May 2015 at 16:20.
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Old 4th May 2015, 21:23   #30
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Default Re: Electric Creep/Crawl Mode

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Originally Posted by sreeharipv View Post
this can be a 50k or less option package without any other modification to the car
Could you shed some more light on the engineering changes required and its associated costs.

Regards
Sutripta
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