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Old 3rd October 2014, 10:02   #16
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by TheTeacher View Post
Thanks guys. But if the info is on their website, why the confusion on interpretation?

I confess I haven't checked out the links you both gave. Will do that in the next few days.
Interpretation of results

Information is available on the website about the protocols, but not on the detailed results of each cars. When they publish an AOP figure and the graph shows a particular region as yellow - the protocol will help you understand that it protects you anywhere in the region of 66.75% to 99.975%. Or orange for that matter is anywhere between 33.35% to 66.725%. But if you see - thats a huge difference and doesn't provide enough clarity IMO.

To help explain my point further, I have dug out two examples. The Nissan Almera (Sunny) that scored 12.74 and the Toyota Avanza that scored 12.98. If you see, anybody will mostly suggest with eyes closed that the Nissan is safer, but infact it is the Toyota that scores higher.

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If you ask me why, I just cannot get you that information even if I dive deep into all those protocols available, unless I can get my hands on the actual tests results. Hope its clear now why there is a difficult on the interpretation.

Flaw in the actual protocol

This also shows one of the biggest flaws (In my humble opinion) in the ASEAN NCAP test protocol. One limb damage in a body region is just as bad as 3-4 limbs with same damage. Illustrated in figure below to help put my thoughts into words-

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All four limbs getting an impact of 60% is considered safer than one limb getting an impact of 55%. Because it just considers the lowest score of a limb to consider the score of a body region - and then takes the lower score of a body region from among driver and co-passenger.

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Old 3rd October 2014, 18:01   #17
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

This time, lets put the City against the Vento. 15.8 for the City against 14.51 for the Vento.

When you say safety - if its the head and the chest that comes to your mind first - the VW offers 'Green' safety for both, while the city is only adequate at the chest.
You make very reasonable points, especially with regards to the complexity of the whole thing.

As for the City's yellow in chest and torso region to the Vento's green, I think it is hard to objectively say if one will be significantly safer than the other in absence of absolute numbers for each region in AOP.

Who knows, maybe its 3.99 (yellow zone) for the City and 4.01 (green zone) for the Vento? (I don't have the exact numbers for either car)

Point is, colors and star rating is just oversimplifying things and making them open to manipulation by marketing teams.

Also, I will take the very relevance of these tests with a pinch of salt considering how cars like the Nano and i10 that are actually sold in India failed crash tests, despite their international models clearing them previously.

Test the cars that are actually sold here, their base models, and you'll have my attention.
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Old 3rd October 2014, 19:23   #18
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

It's really weird that they don't provide detailed test results. Sort of defeats the purpose of the ratings when there is so much ambiguity.
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Old 4th October 2014, 01:51   #19
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
I would also like to commend the fact that VW imediately introduced airbags in all Polo variants in India. So just with one test, Hatchback buyers in India suddenly got a car that has 4 star safety across its variant range.
True. That effort by VW has to be appreciated. But we can't really be sure of the 4-star safety unless the particular versions are crash tested here in India. However, the kerb weights being similar is surely a positive sign.

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
So is that a possible chink in armour for NCAP or is there still more to it than meets eye?
There might be more to it than meets the eye, but till then - it looks a chink in the armour. I have provided another example in the previous post where it looks the like AOP ratings go against the impact analysis provided by ASEAN NCAP.

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Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Another thing to consider is that these ratings are not absolute- just because 2 cars have similar ratings does not mean they are equally safe. Euro NCAP tests are designed to simulate a car crashing into another vehicle of similar weight and structure (The 2 vehicles weighing withing 150 kg of each other). So the tests tell us what happens to the occupants if a Honda City crashes into another C segment car like City, Fiesta or Vento. Or when a Q7 crashes into a Range Rover or another Q7. The ratings are meaningful only while comparing cars within a segment. But if a higher rated C segment car like City or Fiesta crashed into a lower rated SUV like the previous generation Range Rover (4 star), the occupants of the C segment car are likely to incur more injuries than those in the SUV.

An an aside, interesting to note that the Smart fortwo, a super mini and the previous generation Range Rover, both have a 4 star rating. But if both these cars crashed into each other at 64 kmph, which car would you want to be in?
Thanks for raising this very valid point. I do not have the proper answer for it now. Hopefully, can find some relevant material for it, or someone with knowledge on the field can chip in. As a starting point, NCAP clearly states " In fact, the occupants of the heavier car or the car with higher structure tend to fare better than the occupants in lighter and lower car."
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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Now, being in the field of quantitative research and analytics, what we do to overcome this problem is to assign 'weights' to all parameters which are a part of testing.
Correct. And thats why is surprising that chest consists of one body region, while legs and femur form two different body regions capable of bringing down results even more.

Waiting for your analysis.
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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Also, I will take the very relevance of these tests with a pinch of salt considering how cars like the Nano and i10 that are actually sold in India failed crash tests, despite their international models clearing them previously.

Test the cars that are actually sold here, their base models, and you'll have my attention.
True. If you have been following the 'sheet metal' thread, I have been one of the first to state the point of Indian cars being not build upto these international standards. However, dropped that point for this thread because we have an active thread discussing the same now.

Base models of most Indian cars - except may be the Polo and the Micra (standard driver airbag) might not score anything more than 1 stars in the tests - mostly because of the absence of airbags. We can't expect more unless a crash test facility gets opened in India.

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Old 4th October 2014, 06:43   #20
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
True. That effort by VW has to be appreciated. But we can't really be sure of the 4-star safety unless the particular versions are crash tested here in India. However, the kerb weights being similar is surely a positive sign.

Actually it was the india specific model that got 4 stars. When Volkswagen assured global NCAP that they will withdraw non airbag version of the Polo from India, Global NCAP agreed for one more test of the Indian Polo, this time equiped by airbags. Other Manufacturers were given this option too. The Indian Polo with 2 airbags scored 4 stars. http://www.globalncap.org/crash-test...rs-are-unsafe/

It is however surprising why they did not test the non airbag variants of swift and i20. I would particularly want to see results of Dzire, Xcent and Amaze, the made for India cars.
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Old 4th October 2014, 09:36   #21
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
Actually it was the india specific model that got 4 stars. When Volkswagen assured global NCAP that they will withdraw non airbag version of the Polo from India, Global NCAP agreed for one more test of the Indian Polo, this time equiped by airbags. Other Manufacturers were given this option too. The Indian Polo with 2 airbags scored 4 stars. http://www.globalncap.org/crash-test...rs-are-unsafe/

It is however surprising why they did not test the non airbag variants of swift and i20. I would particularly want to see results of Dzire, Xcent and Amaze, the made for India cars.
Thanks for the link.

NCAP cannot demand manufacturers to submit their models for assessment, hence as a general rule - they try to test one model from each manufacturer each season. Similarly, for the India showcase - they might have decided to get the basic variant of the best selling cars in India, one from each mainstream manufacturer.

The car selected by NCAP will be the basic safety features variant. Manufacturers can voluntarily submit higher models also for assessment and the expenses need to be borne by them. This way - VW could have retained their base models without airbags and still have the higher variants tested. So its commendable that they stopped the non-airbag versions itself.
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Old 4th October 2014, 11:41   #22
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
NCAP cannot demand manufacturers to submit their models for assessment, hence as a general rule - they try to test one model from each manufacturer each season.
What car variant does Euro NCAP test?

When a car has been nominated for testing, Euro NCAP asks the manufacturer for information about the best-selling variant and the fitment of safety equipment accross Europe. From this information the test variant is derived. In general, the test variant must have safety equipment fitted as standard. In exceptional cases, Euro NCAP allows optional technology to be fitted on the test variant, but only if the option is available on a high number of cars sold and only for a short introduction period.

SOURCE:
Quote:
Euro NCAP

1) The car selection procedure

http://www.euroncap.com/ourtests/sel...explained.aspx
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Old 4th October 2014, 14:40   #23
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
What car variant does Euro NCAP test?

When a car has been nominated for testing, Euro NCAP asks the manufacturer for information about the best-selling variant and the fitment of safety equipment accross Europe. From this information the test variant is derived. In general, the test variant must have safety equipment fitted as standard. In exceptional cases, Euro NCAP allows optional technology to be fitted on the test variant, but only if the option is available on a high number of cars sold and only for a short introduction period.

SOURCE:
Thanks. Thats true for the Euro NCAP. The selection procedure I had qouted is for the Latin NCAP.

They pick the base safety feature variant of the car, unless the manufacturer volunteers to test the higher variant as well - in which case they display both the results.

Take the Honda City for example - where the base variant they selected was SV variant which scored 4 stars thanks to the omission of passenger seatbelt reminder, and the higher SV+ variant would have been tested as volunteered by Honda which scored 5 stars. Both these results were published together.

PS - I feel the ASEAN criteria is more relevant for our market where manufacturers skip basic safety features on lower end models. Hopefully - some day it gets implemented.
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Old 4th October 2014, 18:48   #24
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post


Case 4: Accounting for higher speeds

Since it is legal even in India to travel at speeds higher than the NCAP tested 64 kmph, we can also think of such a scenario - lets say 80 kmph?

For ease of comparison - we put the earlier 3 rivals back in the game. The 4 star rated Indian versions (with equivalent ASEAN build) of the City (15.8), Fiesta (15.73) and Vento (14.51).

Attachment 1294687

The yellows will turn amber/ brown. The greens might turn yellows. It cannot be predicted what the impact will be, what is almost certain is that the areas of impact provided here will likely be the ones to have a higher force at higher speeds.

That said - at yellow for the chest - the City is well in the safe zone at 60kmph. But at speeds of 80 / 100? The chest is aleady the weak (only) link in the City, and unfortunately one of the links on the human body. The same city that passed in higher colours at 60 might get closer to amber/ brown / red first among the other three when it comes to the chest? A red on the chest is a 1 star no matter what total points is acheived.

Vento and Fiesta will do the same as well - but at the same speeds as above - the highest impact will be on the legs. Amber/ Brown/ Red on the legs still may/ may not be life threatening yet.

Thank you such a detailed analysis.

Increasing crash test speed to 80 km per hour would likely have a tremendous affect. Take a look at this article below:


The standard EuroNCAP testing procedure requires a 40mph (64km/h) frontal crash test speed, and performance at that level is the basis for the tested car's rating. However, Germany's ADAC testing body wanted to find out what happens if the speed is raised just 10mph (16km/h) to 80km/h (50mph), and did so by testing the Renault Laguna sedan, a top performer in the standard tests. The results are surprising.

Raising the speed by just 10mph (16km/h) resulted in nearly 50% more energy to be dissipated by the car's crumple zones, effectively exceeding their capacity. The increased energy resulted in a significant increase in risk of injury to all occupants, especially the driver, reports Autobild. The testing showed that the driver's chest impacted the steering wheel despite the use of seatbelt and airbags due to the added speed, while the crumpling body of the car pushed the dashboard into the driver's knees, risking injury there as well.

The front-seat passenger fared better, with the Laguna's soft plastics minimizing the damage of the dummy's head striking the dashboard despite the presence of an airbag and being seat-belted in as well. The child-sized dummies in the rear seat showed increased risk of injury, but due primarily to the increased force with which they were thrown against the restraints.

All of this was from testing of a car that scored a full five-star rating in the 40mph (64km/h) EuroNCAP testing procedure, which is as rigorous as any in the world.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...top-rated-cars
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Old 4th October 2014, 23:45   #25
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Base models of most Indian cars - except may be the Polo and the Micra (standard driver airbag) might not score anything more than 1 stars in the tests - mostly because of the absence of airbags. We can't expect more unless a crash test facility gets opened in India.
I more more concerned about the structural integrity of the chassis than just presence of airbags or ESP resulting in a higher star rating. It is a common sight, A pillars of many Indian cars just collapse upon impact, leaving the driver a sitting duck.

By looking at the crash test footage of the Alto K10 or Nano, I will not expect the presence of airbags to alter the results in any way as the chassis itself has failed. Spectacularly.

Also, the waterfall design of the center console and unscientific placement of the pedals will obviously render the driver immobile. Ditto for the power window pods, which are often jugaad-engineered into Indian cars and foul with the knees. Even if he survives the crash, the person will not be able to get away.
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Old 7th October 2014, 08:33   #26
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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Thank you such a detailed analysis.

Increasing crash test speed to 80 km per hour would likely have a tremendous affect. Take a look at this article below:
Thanks for this article! Results are a lot more dramatic than what I had thought!

Crashing into a heavier vehicle at 64 kmph should also have similar results.

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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
I more more concerned about the structural integrity of the chassis than just presence of airbags or ESP resulting in a higher star rating. It is a common sight, A pillars of many Indian cars just collapse upon impact, leaving the driver a sitting duck.

By looking at the crash test footage of the Alto K10 or Nano, I will not expect the presence of airbags to alter the results in any way as the chassis itself has failed. Spectacularly.

Also, the waterfall design of the center console and unscientific placement of the pedals will obviously render the driver immobile. Ditto for the power window pods, which are often jugaad-engineered into Indian cars and foul with the knees. Even if he survives the crash, the person will not be able to get away.
+1. Very true.

Global NCAP states this about Indian vehicles - "In the Suzuki-Maruti Alto 800, the Tata Nano and the Hyundai i10, the vehicle structures proved inadequate and collapsed to varying degrees, resulting in high risks of life-threatening injuries to the occupants. The extent of the structural weaknesses in these models were such that fitting airbags would not be effective in reducing the risk of serious injury"

Atleast Nano and Alto800 doesn't have international pedigree, but doesn't this clearly show how the Indian version of i10 is built to lower standards compared to the european version?

Also, very true about the Alto. I believe the top end Alto800 does come with a driver airbag, but going by the NCAP results- it is quite useless at 64 kmph. Lower speeds, may be it could help! Educated people going for the top end version for its safety features are not getting their money worth here.

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Old 21st October 2014, 21:43   #27
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

We have often discussed the question as to what would happen if a larger vehicle collided with a smaller one. I found a short but very informative video on this subject which shows that a smaller vehicle would be at a serious disadvantage even if both have high safety ratings. Take a close look at the Toyota Yaris vs. Camry crash in the following video:

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Old 21st October 2014, 23:40   #28
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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We have often discussed the question as to what would happen if a larger vehicle collided with a smaller one. I found a short but very informative video on this subject which shows that a smaller vehicle would be at a serious disadvantage even if both have high safety ratings. Take a close look at the Toyota Yaris vs. Camry crash in the following video:


Brilliant. Thanks a lot for sharing this video. The highlight for me was this line. Settles a lot of debate we were having recently.

"All other things remain equal - people in longer heavier cars will fare better in their crashes than people in smaller lighter cars"

A heavier car (say European) with a 4* rating might fare better against a lighter car (say Asian) with a 5* rating if they crash into each other! The yaris for example, totally crumbled in this scenario, while it fares good with a car of its weight.
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Old 21st October 2014, 23:46   #29
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

This video is a different take:

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Old 21st October 2014, 23:54   #30
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Default Re: ASEAN NCAP results? Star Ratings / AOP figures / Analysis of a bigger picture?

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This video is a different take:
But isn't that more of an advertisement?

They have just mentioned 'with biomechanical limits'. And the video is not shown for the full impact. It stops right after the crash. Would have been interesting to know if the Smart was thrown towards the rear afterwards?

Last edited by bblost : 21st October 2014 at 23:58. Reason: removed embedded video
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