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Old 10th November 2014, 21:39   #196
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

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Originally Posted by Seran Manian View Post
Serious Engine related issues:
===================
Alternator Belt Grinding noise
Grinding sound from clutch
Seran, both the above will not become serious engine issues if rectified on time.

Grinding Noise - It's just a faulty belt which the dealerships can replace in half a day time. They would replace the belt, test drive the vehicle and delivers back. As somebody posted in the 'Honda City Review', he got the idler bearing replaced for this issue. In my case, just the belt was replaced and till now no problems after driving for more than 1000 kms.

Clutch Noise - Not on my car since it's an Automatic. However, I had this issue in my Wagon R and got the clutch flywheel and some other parts replaced. There can be various reasons for this. Heavy usage, Half Clutch driving and also during the harsh test drive done by the manufacturer once a car is out of the assembly line in the factory.

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Old 12th November 2014, 16:05   #197
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/45121848.cms

Wow! This article gives a good insight into what is going wrong globally with Honda and other auto makers. Competitive pricing has become the bane of even the auto industry and is putting quality on the backfoot.

"Honda achieved industry-leading levels of quality over the past three decades through forming 'keiretsu' - bringing parts makers closer to the core through cross-shareholdings to allow close cooperation in designing components. Toyota and Nissan had similar set-ups.

But, as cars have become less mechanical and more technical - and quality is seen as a given - the focus has shifted to who can offer buyers 'more car' at an affordable price. That has prompted automakers like Honda to focus on core technology such as hybrid propulsion and hydrogen fuel-cell cars, while commoditised parts like doors, seats, and even transmission, are now procured more widely rather than from 'keiretsu' suppliers, with the risk they may be cheaper rather than better."
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Old 12th November 2014, 18:46   #198
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Former Honda executives meet current Honda chief and advise him to work on quality.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-exc...calls--2014-11

Quote:
Honda achieved industry-leading levels of quality over the past three decades through forming "keiretsu" — bringing parts makers closer to the core through cross-shareholdings to allow close cooperation in designing components. Toyota and Nissan had similar set-ups.

But as cars have become less mechanical and more technical — and quality is seen as a given — the focus has shifted to who can offer buyers "more car" at an affordable price.
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Old 12th November 2014, 19:06   #199
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

When the new City was introduced in 2009, while all loved it, people were not happy with the quality compared to the dolphin City. The power and design was very much appreciated.

Now with the new City in 2014, Honda has worsened the quality even more. Huge panel gaps, way more flimsy build, under-tyred and so many reported mechanical issues in such a short span clearly shows lack of QC.

Its definitely a case of turning a blind eye to some of these defects. I am sure the QC team would have reported the same internally, but it still got approved keeping commercials in mind.
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Old 12th November 2014, 19:15   #200
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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
If that were the case, why "niggle-free anymore?" in the title, it would have been better to use an appropriate title and everyone could move along. The tone here is that the older Hondas were of great quality (It was not) and the new Honda is a disaster (It is not). I said the "tone", I am not saying that it is being said so explicitly nor am I pointing fingers. It is just the canonization of the old Honda City (it's dense plastic actually) that feels irritating in this thread.



While CD did a great compilation for the ANHC, I believe the same diligence is missing in assessing the niggles of the earlier Cities. And with that background effort absent, the freedom to use "niggle-free anymore?" is questionable. "A compilation of Honda City (4th Gen) Niggles" is what it is in reality and that is nothing new. Price x Features x Quality tends to be a constant in most cases and a trade-off is almost inevitable in this price range.
Valid point. I accept your argument.

However, team-BHP official review mentions that the car offers niggle-free ownership experience. This would be based on the user experiences reported on the forum. I don't see the benefits of questioning that now, considering the model is replaced.

We also had a small number of existing users post here, after they upgraded to the new generation or test drove it. Their comments also suggests that there is a quality drop in the current generation. I have quoted two members in the original post and few others have commented as well later.

A poll perhaps would be the faster way to sort this?

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
One more question to @crazy_driver - What was the need to mention Ciaz along with the variants and pricing on this thread?
Had reported the post and the moderators have corrected this today.
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Old 13th November 2014, 00:26   #201
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Here is my 2-bit worth analysis from reading this thread (in its entirety):

1. There will be some small niggles here and there in all product types.
At the two ends of the spectrum - (A) at this end where everything will work perfectly 99.99999% of the times like in a Rolls Royce for example, which could last for decades together - each car is hand built, etc. etc. and you pay for the worksmanship (and the service). (Z) At the other, you will pay very little upfront and already factor in the fact about high maintenance costs in your decision (Tata Indica first version??)

What (most) people expect and their decision is based on is a good balance between the two ends. Some may be closer to A and some closer to Z. If I were to generalize and divide the spectrum midway between A & Z, Japanese cars are considered to be in the A half and of the spectrum and European or even Indian cars considered in the Z half.

With Honda, based on their historical performance, people have expected it to be closer to A and have suddenly found it to be inching towards Z from its earlier position, which makes people (especially owners) very very unhappy & angry. (How about India losing cricket match to a Bangladesh/Netherlands/Canada).

This become even more aggravated when your closest comparable (I am not using the word competitor), Toyota, still seems to retain its position on the spectrum.

2. Service - A fair bit of the problem could also be the attitude of the service centres and people there. They might have become 'lethargic' with their position on the spectrum that they do not listen to 'customer feedback' about their slipping position, till perhaps it is too late. I have read the term 'devils for dealers' in some of the car reviews of other brands.

Today, all business has become a 'service' business where your customer is well travelled, well pampered, etc. in all fields. It has become a buyer's market and gone are the days when it was a 'sellers market' where the choice was limited and people had to buy a Ambasaddor / M800 or had to fly Air India despite delays & cancellations.

When the service standards do not match the customer's expectation (no feedback loop), owners get even more angry.

I faced a problem with my Access 125 scooter where they it took me 3 trips back-to-back to the service centre to get a noise (from the gear outer belt or something) rectified. In the first 2 trips the guys (sales staff who make the service sheet and dont seem know much about the vehicle and are just like clerks) just denied there was any noise till I had to go and explain it to a mechnic who figured out the problem in less than 30 seconds.

Thereore, if people put you on a 'pedestal' by buying your products by the thousands, they have the right to bring you down to ground from the clouds as well. Most problems would get solved if the service centre people actually listen to the customer and try to understand thinkgs the way a 'layman' feels it, which doesnt happen.

3. Majority Rule - Generally, niggles will be there in all products but as a rule majority of the customers of a particular product should not face it or atleast the niggles should be small enough to be rectified easily without much cost (what is majority is arguable and you have the Six Sigma rating and many other systems for this). This is something that buyers expect i.e. majority of the consumers should have a problem-free experience. If it goes the other way, there is a problem.

4. Localization - Many people in this thread mentioned that localisation is the reason why the quality seems to have gone down. I tend to disagree. I firmly believe, 'you pay for what you get and you get what you pay for' - relevant here from the car manufacturer's perspective. Therefore, if you want a certain quality of product, the local OEM manufacturer will also deliver it at a 'price'. Case in point, Sodexho, world's largest contract catering company can feed you a meal for Rs. 30-40 as well as Rs. 300 per person - you need to tell them what you want.

5. Timing of the problem - I would like to reproduce another TBHP link on extended warranty - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/buying...yes-no-14.html (ARTICLE: Extended Warranties. Yes or No?).
If you see Wagon R Rocks post, there is a chart that very nicely summarizes it - the failure potential is very high in the early days and very late days of a life of a car. Isnt this why you have all these companies testing their vehicles (with appropriate comouflage) in 'actual' road conditions. Also, the fact that the reports & customer feedback from earlier batches are used in the subsequen batches. Did Honda miss something??

Finally my suggestion - Given today's highly organized IT systems, all car companies should run a data sheet similar to what CD had done based on all units of a particular car model sold till date. They can easily run such output based on the service records and complaints during service visits. And then use it to iron out the problems from the next batch. Not sure if companies already do it and if yes, do it well?
But as a side thought, shouldnt such data be made available to the public mandatorily by a regulatory authority (obviously the manufacturer will not do it) - something similar to when the IRDA publishes details on claim settlement ratios, number of unsettled claims, etc. for all insurers so that people can decide. I know this is being too optimistic but would be worthwhile & useful for the entire industry.

Disclosure - My cousin owns a 2nd hand City dolphin nose 2008 or thereabouts and it has run 40-50k (first owner) and another 130-150k (my cousin, who converted it to CNG). I think it is a very smooth car to drive even after running almost 200,000 km., of course with some issues like power windows not working properly, etc. but no problem with the key requirement - 'driveability'. No ownership / driving experience whatsoever of newer version.
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Old 13th November 2014, 10:34   #202
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
And with that background effort absent, the freedom to use "niggle-free anymore?" is questionable. "A compilation of Honda City (4th Gen) Niggles" is what it is in reality and that is nothing new. Price x Features x Quality tends to be a constant in most cases and a trade-off is almost inevitable in this price range.
I would second sun_king's statement, if only for avoiding the unwarranted controversy or the tendency to sensationalize the intention of the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by aashishnb View Post
Finally my suggestion - Given today's highly organized IT systems, all car companies should run a data sheet similar to what CD had done based on all units of a particular car model sold till date. They can easily run such output based on the service records and complaints during service visits. And then use it to iron out the problems from the next batch. Not sure if companies already do it and if yes, do it well?
All manufacturing/product companies also do that for sure. But how much of the actual real world issues go back to the companies?

Quote:
But as a side thought, shouldnt such data be made available to the public mandatorily by a regulatory authority (obviously the manufacturer will not do it) - something similar to when the IRDA publishes details on claim settlement ratios, number of unsettled claims, etc. for all insurers so that people can decide. I know this is being too optimistic but would be worthwhile & useful for the entire industry.
Brilliant suggestion - but as you said, too optimistic. Remember the defense of SIAM against crash testing results?
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Old 14th December 2014, 17:21   #203
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
If that were the case, why "niggle-free anymore?" in the title, it would have been better to use an appropriate title and everyone could move along. The tone here is that the older Hondas were of great quality (It was not) and the new Honda is a disaster (It is not). I said the "tone", I am not saying that it is being said so explicitly nor am I pointing fingers. It is just the canonization of the old Honda City (it's dense plastic actually) that feels irritating in this thread.

While CD did a great compilation for the ANHC, I believe the same diligence is missing in assessing the niggles of the earlier Cities. And with that background effort absent, the freedom to use "niggle-free anymore?" is questionable. "A compilation of Honda City (4th Gen) Niggles" is what it is in reality and that is nothing new. Price x Features x Quality tends to be a constant in most cases and a trade-off is almost inevitable in this price range.
Just had a quick glance at the JD Power 'India Initial Quality Study' for the past three years and the results seems to be in-line with what I have pointed out in this thread. There have been many question raised on the validity of the question 'Aren't honda cars niggle-free anymore?'

I guess the below study results stand as proof enough? Along with the general observations made by members in the thread till now. They decrease in quality might have been gradual over the years, but definitely sees a rapid decline with the current generation.

2012 - Honda City is the best vehicle in the market (Not only the segment) with a PP100 score of 46.

2013 - Honda City crowned once again as the best vehicle in the market with a PP100 score of 39.

2014 - Not only does the City lose the crown by a huge margin, it even falls to third place for the segment below Skoda Rapid and Volkswagen Vento. A PP100 score of 74 is not even close to that of previous years.

* Lower the better since it lists problems per 100 vehicles.

Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?-2012.jpg

Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?-2013.jpg

Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?-2014.jpg

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Old 14th December 2014, 23:29   #204
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

I have no faith absolutely in these survey teams and auto magazines. Interestingly, bumped into this thread.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ty-survey.html (My experience with JD Power Quality survey)

Not that I'm a fan-boy of City but I do not have any faith in these surveyors.
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Old 15th December 2014, 11:42   #205
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Just had a quick glance at the JD Power 'India Initial Quality Study' for the past three years and the results seems to be in-line with what I have pointed out in this thread. There have been many question raised on the validity of the question 'Aren't honda cars niggle-free anymore?'

I guess the below study results stand as proof enough? Along with the general observations made by members in the thread till now. They decrease in quality might have been gradual over the years, but definitely sees a rapid decline with the current generation.

2012 - Honda City is the best vehicle in the market (Not only the segment) with a PP100 score of 46.

2013 - Honda City crowned once again as the best vehicle in the market with a PP100 score of 39.

2014 - Not only does the City lose the crown by a huge margin, it even falls to third place for the segment below Skoda Rapid and Volkswagen Vento. A PP100 score of 74 is not even close to that of previous years.

* Lower the better since it lists problems per 100 vehicles.

Attachment 1318422

Attachment 1318423

Attachment 1318424
Crazy Driver:

Here's something in the favour of Honda. I googled for the 2009 through to 2011 Survey Results (same as the ones you put up for 2012 and 2013). Have attached the images of the 2009 and 2011 survey. Could not find for 2010 and did not have enough time to google through more pages.

The point that I want to make here is that 2008/09 saw the launch of the 3rd Gen Honda City in India (Not Sure about the exact Month of the launch). Honda City was at the top for both 2009 and 2011 as well as 2012 and 2013 as per your post above.

Looking at the PP100 numbers, at the first year of the launch of the 3rd Gen Honda City viz. 2009, the score was 79; in 2011 it was 44; in 2012 it was 47 and in 2013 it was 39. In fact, in 2009, Honda was hanging onto the number 1 rank by its nails. Second Place was Maruti Suzuki SX4 with a score of 80 as against City's 79 and third place was Hyundai Verna with a score of 82.

So going by the trend, it is clearly evident that even the 3rd Gen Honda City in its first year had more issues per 100 cars than the 4th Gen Honda City.

The point is that Honda did learn from the complaints that were seen in 2009 and rectified them through the tenure of the 3rd Gen Honda City bringing the numbers down.

What says that Honda won't do it this time around with the 4th Gen Honda City?

With regards to Skoda and VW overtaking Honda in these rankings, the Rapid and Vento have been in the market for close to or over 3 years now, I guess. So considering that the PP100 score improving is certainly required.

I would still give Honda another year or so before I start thinking whether Honda really has the same niggle-free experience of cars that used to be there earlier.

Although statistics give a good picture, but they never give the perfect picture of the scenario. That's my belief.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by tejas08 : 15th December 2014 at 11:50. Reason: Some more details added.
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Old 15th December 2014, 13:52   #206
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

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Originally Posted by tejas08 View Post
Crazy Driver:

The point that I want to make here is that 2008/09 saw the launch of the 3rd Gen Honda City in India (Not Sure about the exact Month of the launch). Honda City was at the top for both 2009 and 2011 as well as 2012 and 2013 as per your post above.

Looking at the PP100 numbers, at the first year of the launch of the 3rd Gen Honda City viz. 2009, the score was 79; in 2011 it was 44; in 2012 it was 47 and in 2013 it was 39.
Valid data points tesjas08. The available data only shows that whenever a new product is launched, there are quality problems which surfaces in the line up. These are ironed out in due course of time.

Also as you have pointed out that Vento and Skoda are in production for 3 years and still the quality improvement shown is not encouraging, especially for Vento (still in high sixties)

Also I have one doubt - how volume impacts are considered in rating for a segment. For example the Honda City volume is almost 3-4 times higher compared to Skoda or Vento in 2014. This is true for premium hatch segment also where Swift numbers are pretty high.
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Old 19th December 2014, 13:32   #207
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

An excellent thread, with tremendous efforts and analysis from Crazy Driver.
Having owned 3rd gen City for >5 years and driven BIL's 4th gen over long distances, some of CD's observations almost mirror my impressions, in particular about the build quality, reduced QC, and a Step down in quality compared to previous generation.
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Old 19th December 2014, 14:15   #208
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Default re: Honda City (4th gen) niggles: A compilation. Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?

Its actually shocking since the whole thing about Honda has been their top class quality. My first car was a 86 civic and then also owned a 98 CRV and I still own a 2008 3rd Gen City. 3rd Gen City has been amazing, 50K+ miles, just regular service. I had bought this within a few months if this model being launched and had good buying experience as well.
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Old 20th December 2014, 09:28   #209
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Its actually shocking since the whole thing about Honda has been their top class quality. My first car was a 86 civic and then also owned a 98 CRV and I still own a 2008 3rd Gen City. 3rd Gen City has been amazing, 50K+ miles, just regular service. I had bought this within a few months if this model being launched and had good buying experience as well.
Not any more, few years back Honda quality was much superior to Maruti and Hyundai but now it is kinda reverse, both Maruti and Hyundai improved their quality levels but Honda went deep down, infact Hyundai has better quality than Honda (i20 elite, i10 grand ).
Door and dashboard plastics of current city is that of a Swift or even lower, extremely thin body panels and irregular gaps in fit and finish.

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Old 20th December 2014, 20:38   #210
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Originally Posted by tejas08 View Post
the launch of the 3rd Gen Honda City in India (Not Sure about the exact Month of the launch).
It was launched in September 2008 and car was available off the shelves by october 2008.
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