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Old 5th November 2014, 08:32   #196
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...er-2015-a.html

That was a fast one by Govt!

Mango man's math in linked to these- "Kitna Dethi hei : Kitna dena hei."
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Old 5th November 2014, 08:35   #197
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

I can't remember when I was so angry as I am now. The Swift manufactured in Europe has more strength than the one manufactured in India. Its a cartel at work, all the Manufacturers get the Government to act according to what they want and the People are palmed off lemons. Non-retractable seat belts in the rear, middle bench seat in the front, your phone doubling up as your music system, that itself was shocking, the first time I saw the Go I wondered how flimsy it was, but brushed away the thought thinking that the Datsun Engineers might have a reason for making it so crumple friendly, guess their Accountants signed off the materials for the car.

The cheapest thing that all the mass manufacturers are doing is moving to Tier I and Tier II cities, because people there are not well informed with regards to their automobiles and they can still palm off their stuff to them. The heat is definitely on in the cities where most T-bhp members know more about cars than the salesmen selling them!
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Old 5th November 2014, 08:39   #198
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
The only exception would be the Sunny, as it comes with a driver airbag (& ABS) as standard.
Would the ratings be good without a passenger airbag? As per my understanding, the impact/damage on both driver and passenger dummies are taken for each area and the worst of the two is taken for the rating. So the driver might be protected by the driver airbag, but since the passenger is still exposed, I don't think a car with a single airbag would fare so well either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
I have first hand experience of it. We had an A-star ZXi with ABS/ Airbags till some time back. And when I put it up for sale, none of the buyers were keen on the safety kit. Most were concerned about the absence of alloy wheels though. Finally we gave the car to a BHPian who really wanted safety kit for his car. And I am seeing the same with our Swift ZDi now. Everyone is looking for a VDi here.
Unlike Maruti's claims that customers have a choice, there is an invisible set of customers who do lateral upgrades with pre-owned models who are unable to get the variants they want because the SAs convince anyone going into the showroom that airbags and ABS are useless and hence there are not enough specimens of these ABS-equipped versions being sold as new to come to used car market in a few years.

I was in the exact opposite situation to yours when I was looking for a pre-worshipped Swift in 2009-10. Since petrol cars were depreciating so fast back then, I had decided to get hold of a petrol Swift from someone relocating from my company so that I can properly inquire about the driving styles and history of the previous owner through colleagues and buy a known vehicle.

I waited for more than 6 months looking for a ZXi to turn up but it never came. Just a couple of VXi ABS came, but both of them were tortured by the owners to hell and back. Looks like SA had told them ABS is only for high speeds and they decided that having ABS would help them take those high speeds within the city. One of those cars sounded more like a diesel, and I confirmed with the owner that there were no engine/exhaust mods done.

A good fraction of the customers who do lateral upgrades above a certain price band actually do it knowing a little more about cars (to be 90% confident that a 2-3 year old car is not going to be a white elephant) than someone who thinks he would rather buy a brand new Alto as his first car since he afraid of maintenance expenses for a used Wagon R and cannot afford a new Wagon R. These new car buyers are the ones who are easily influenced by the sales advisors and end up buying lower variants.

Last edited by zenren : 5th November 2014 at 08:42.
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Old 5th November 2014, 08:44   #199
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by bhaskaracs View Post
Shortbread+

Now, can the government do something about this? Simply suggesting, can highway patrol teams disallow all vehicles from manufacturers whose safety ratings are poor from plying on highways (you dont need an airbag on Mumbai roads, do you)? Can they target different OEMs on different days/weeks and just dont let them pass. Or collect exorbitant toll rates as a penalty for not caring enough for your life and those around you.
I beg to disagree with your point "do cars in cities like Mumbai need Airbags" - Mumbai has one of the most impatient drivers. People drive in crazy speeds in city - especially on the eastern/western express ways and other newly opened roads!

So yes, we need airbags in city limits too!
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Old 5th November 2014, 08:46   #200
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Maruti has had a history of following the market and grudging the customer new developments in the past also. MPFI, disc brakes, sea-belts and now air-bags, the trend is there for all to see. Meanwhile, royalties go on unabated, and the attitude towards Indian consumer is that they can eat crow.

This was the way Premier and Hindustan Motors behaved when Maruti entered the market. 30 years later, it is probably time for another leader to emerge, and as of now no idea who it will be.

The issue here is simple - I want to buy a lower variant but I want all the safety features, and Maruti is unable to give me that option on date. I have owned 2 Maruti Swift diesel cars, 2008, 2009, and sometimes drive a friend's 2012 Swift diesel. All three are VDi ABS. The quality drop is perceptible, and frankly, the best to drive even now is the 2008.

My experience with trying to buy a Ciaz is known - the dealer attitude and the manufacturer attitude were and are - take it or leave it, especially when I wanted to know why I can not get atleast two airbags in the VDi+ version of the Ciaz.

Now I read that two manufacturers of competing sedans, Tata Motors and Toyota, are offering 2 airbags as standard in all variants of Zest and Etios respectively.

Are Maruti going to follow the HM and PAL route, where real estate with high value in Gurgaon (as was the case for PAL/Mumbai and HM/Kolkata) will be the end-game play?
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:03   #201
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Folks, A number of people are saying that if you need airbags/ABS then go for the highest variant i.e. ZXi/ZDi. But it's just not airbags/ABS alone that comes with ZXi/ZDi and the price is north because of the alloys, leather seats, music system etc. So, what if I just need a simple base variant (read LXi/LDi) with ABS/airbag? There is no option for me. I will need to go for the highest variant (ZXi/ZDi) but then pay for the hunky-dory alloys and any other additional accessories that comes in that variant and just pushes the price up. So, let's just give an option to the consumer to have airbags/ABS in any trim and not just in the highest trim alone!

P.S And the other issue is that even if I get ABS/Airbags on ZXi/ZDi I am really not sure if that's going to be of any use if the structural integrity of Indian Swift has been compromised :-(.

Last edited by searacer932 : 5th November 2014 at 09:22.
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:10   #202
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

I'm not sure if the 3-Star rated Swift (with Airbags), is the same as the Indian version. Although its exported from here, regulations in Latin America are quite surely advanced, if not the top management would've said something like, "Products sold here meet various Indian & international standards..."

Anyway, to keep discussions constructive, I guess a slightly better thing to do, instead of having wishlists, would be to learn from these studies and understand the parameters that are considered, WHY the cars scored so less and WHAT's needed (apart from Airbags) to make it better.

It is also important to note that this purportedly 'Independent' organisation, apparently took 'donations' to fund these tests. So, while what they exposed was an eye-opener, it'd be prudent to hold some reservations before we fully trust their intent.

Pressure groups these days would go to any extent to extract personal gain, I wonder why it took 7 months for NDTV to publish scores of India's largest selling B Segment hatch (and its not like our Indian media is known for their neutral, honest & brilliant journalism). Hence, while I consider such irresponsible decisions of auto-makers as sacrilege, I can't help but hold reservations about :
  • WHY would a foreign body want to make us Indians aware of what we're buying?
  • WHO paid those donations, or rather who really were the people behind the Donor names?
  • WHAT was the criterion for the selection process?
  • Why exactly 64kmph? Why not at the Highway Speed limit - 100kmph? Why not the average speed of metro cities?
AFAIK : Crash tests cost a seriously MASSIVE lot.

IIRC, from info obtained when I visited TATA's Pune plant (which has a crash test facility), additional the cost of such a well equipped facility and the professionals, each dummy by itself costs about 1 crore. The unit/car with various sensors too would cost quite a significant amount!

Although, the guy also mentioned that, for basic rough drafts for new designs, it could also be simulated.
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:13   #203
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
I have owned 2 Maruti Swift diesel cars, 2008, 2009, and sometimes drive a friend's 2012 Swift diesel. All three are VDi ABS.
I didn't know there was a VDi ABS variant on offer for Swift in 2012. Are you sure it is not just an ABS sticker your friend put at the rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
Now I read that two manufacturers of competing sedans, Tata Motors and Toyota, are offering 2 airbags as standard in all variants of Zest and Etios respectively.
Since when did Zest have airbags in all variants? AFAIK, it is only available in XMS and XT variants. The much acclaimed diesel AMT variant is without ABS and airbags!
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:20   #204
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Well I have a good answers for why our cars are not safe
  • People don't care about safety
  • People opt for cheaper, efficient unsafe cars rather than safe ones
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLizardKing View Post
Forcing? Do you mean to say that the government of India has forced MS not to offer airbags and ABS as an option on the L and V variants?
Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
..... nothing can take away from the fact that during the test they found the structural integrity to be unstable. The same observation was not made for the european car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
I disagree that the customers are to blame for this fiasco.
extreme_torque this is bang on the head. Why safety is attributed to presence of ABS and Airbag only? What about even more important parameters such as build quality, Structural design, Crumple Zones etc. Balloons will not save if the dynamics of the car are corrupt.

I am quite surprised that people had to wait for report from our illiterate TV-media to make them understand such a simple logic.
Is Maruti/Hyundai etc. not labelled as Tin-Cans on Team-bhp??

For many people on Indian roads, they do not understand the meaning of safety. Meeting with an accident and staying alive with paralysis is fine with them. Hardly .00000001% of junta blames accident borne death to cars. And 99% of the .000000001% who blame the unsafe cars are the educated lot mostly members of forums such as Team-BHP.

I use to have hard time convincing my friends at office about the importance of safety since resale Value is THE mantra for them. They say they cannot afford a safe car, Come on man! . 20 years back many of us could afford to buy a car, did our work stop?

And I am the clown among the majority for putting my money into a safer car which is fuel deficient(heavy body) and no resale value.

In any case, Mango Junta is highly selectively forgiving and this will pass for Maruti and various other Tin-can manufacturers.

Last edited by Speed Pujari : 5th November 2014 at 09:22.
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:22   #205
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

I will blame Indian Tax structure and Government for this. Because of tax structure car manufacturers in India are struggling to keep on road price down to attract customers. However, I am expecting some amendments in coming years. But no body is stopping car manufacturer from making safe cars at reasonable price. I would prefer Airbags & ABS over fancy alloy wheels, or other so called advanced features like ACC, Voice recognition system, & what not. It will be great if manufacturer start giving safety features over all other fancy features. I sincerely hope in coming few years we will get those.

I will again say, Maruti should take initiative in this. If they do, others have to do it & follow them as Maruti is the leader in India. Lets hope somebody from Maruti is reading all this & will take some action

Last edited by Aditya : 6th November 2014 at 12:37. Reason: Let's keep politicians and political parties out of the discussion
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:29   #206
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Pujari View Post
I am quite surprised that people had to wait for report from our illiterate TV-media to make them understand such a simple logic.
Is Maruti/Hyundai etc. not labelled as Tin-Cans on Team-bhp??

And I am the clown among the majority for putting my money into a safer car which is fuel deficient(heavy body) and no resale value.

In any case, Mango Junta is highly selectively forgiving and this will pass for Maruti and various other Tin-can manufacturers.
Buddy, is there any report which suggests that car which you own(I am assuming it to be made in India fiat) is safer than those tin cans? sheet metal thickness, weight and other things wont convince me. Vista had earned only 3 stars even though its very heavy. I was blaming Hyundai for poor safety and even argued with sales executive while looking for a new car, now after the report I have a foot on mouth situation thanks to the three stars earned by my car.
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:43   #207
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayjay View Post
SIAM has jumped in to defend its members, with typically ridiculous arguments.
Here's the article:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/45037615.cms

Some choice samples below:

SIAM director general Vishnu Mathur said, "Every country has its own safety requirements. Our cars are meeting safety norms set by the government."
Pray tell us what these safety norms are and how do manufacturers ensure compliance.
A big THANKS to the folks at SIAM who categorically passed the blame to the government for the existing rules and provoked the government to immediately declare that they will change the rules if that is the reason SIAM is unable to give safe cars
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:50   #208
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Buddy, is there any report which suggests that car which you own(I am assuming it to be made in India fiat) is safer than those tin cans? sheet metal thickness, weight and other things wont convince me. Vista had earned only 3 stars even though its very heavy. I was blaming Hyundai for poor safety and even argued with sales executive while looking for a new car, now after the report I have a foot on mouth situation thanks to the three stars earned by my car.
Your concern is highly understandable. The simple way is to stay calm and drive safe keeping the star ratings in your mind.

Surprisingly I have seen quite a number of fatalities in Honda City and Innova. Certainly it was driven at break neck speed.
I am yet to read reports of fatalities in a Fiat, Google does not help to convey this information. Though I have read many life saving incidences in News Paper and on Team-Bhp.

I am not a Fiat-fan, but yes I am a safety-fan and the brand happen to convince me at such a price point was only the one which I own.
EDIT: The kind research a safety oriented person should be doing
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3571503 (Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...)

Certainly while buying a car being proactive is better than being reactive. So many threads about this report is proving how many of us were not-so proactive while purchasing our car. My father almost lost his hands in a 30-40 kmph Wagon-R based accident. My family is thankful to Maruti since he is alive and I am a rebel in society for such a hatred towards tin-cans which 'saved' life of my father.

This is end of Fiat Discussion. Period and Peace.

Last edited by Speed Pujari : 5th November 2014 at 10:06.
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Old 5th November 2014, 09:50   #209
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Reply from VP marketing of MUL:

Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...-msreply.jpg

Well
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Old 5th November 2014, 10:01   #210
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

I am sorry to say this. I have seen a number of photographs of accident sites where the most popular Indian car is crushed like papad and I really pitied the passengers. When the car construction does not have crush zones and inherently safe design, the number of air bags really do not matter. I recollect a BBC test which was trying to impress this point. A huge Merc looking Chinese luxury sedan car was frontal crash tested and was shown in slow motion. The car was crushed badly and was a total wreck. Despite the deployment of all air bags, the dolls suffered severe head injuries and could not be extricated. The pax could have died in an actual scene. Only intact items were alloy wheels, which got disconnected and rolled off.

Last edited by alavandar : 5th November 2014 at 10:06. Reason: Some content added.
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