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Old 5th November 2014, 22:21   #256
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Do you even have a vague idea (at least the number of zeros) of how much a carbon fibre chassis of an F1 car costs?
Zenren, my point was not to include carbon fibre, but the need for a stronger shell. I never mentioned we need carbon fibres in road cars, I'm very much aware of the cost and the manufacturing complications of carbon fibre parts.
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Old 5th November 2014, 22:23   #257
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
The Vista even though earned 3 stars, didn't have its structure deformed. If we can assume that the Indian model has same construction, then it is one of the few cars in India <10L that don't deform.
I was not aware that Indica was crash tested. Any links?

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
Zenren, my point was not to include carbon fibre, but the need for a stronger shell. I never mentioned we need carbon fibres in road cars, I'm very much aware of the cost and the manufacturing complications of carbon fibre parts.
Due to the momentum of the driver during a 64km/h crash, he will hit the steering even if he is belted up and the dashboard/shell remains perfectly intact. This was something that led to the zero stars for Figo and Polo where the shell was stable. We cannot increase the distance to the steering wheel from the driver seat since it should still be at an arm's length for the driver to reach the steering.

The reason F1 cars are able to withstand the frontal crashes is due to the way carbon fibre disintegrates after absorbing impact energy, thereby preventing the energy to be transferred to driver shell. We cannot do something similar in road cars without an exorbitant cost.

Last edited by zenren : 5th November 2014 at 22:34. Reason: Adding another reply
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Old 5th November 2014, 22:30   #258
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

If it was the hatchback segment, why was the Punto, Micra, Brio, Liva importantly missed to be tested? I would love to know the results. (Then comes the newer Celerio, Grand i10, Elite i20 and then Ritz, Beat, Sail, Eon, Spark, Indica/Vista, Wagon-R too)
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Old 5th November 2014, 22:50   #259
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Due to the momentum of the driver during a 64km/h crash, he will hit the steering even if he is belted up and the dashboard/shell remains perfectly intact. This was something that led to the zero stars for Figo and Polo where the shell was stable. We cannot increase the distance to the steering wheel from the driver seat since it should still be at an arm's length for the driver to reach the steering.
This is with every car, the steering will always be arm's length, it is the work of the seat belt to prevent the driver from hitting the steering. If these cars failed, then something is not right in the way the seat belt works on these cars. I was involved in a 70 mph motorway pile-up in the fast lane in UK a few years back. I was driving a Vauxhall Insignia Turbo and everyone was wearing a seat belt. It was a heavy impact and everyone escaped without a scratch. Only the coke in the cup holder was splashed all over. The car in the back, a UK Ford Figo hit me from behind and the entire bonnet crumpled perfectly and there was no cabin intrusion. Too bad the driver didn't wear seat belt(bump in the windshield) and was saved by the air bags, he was very shaken up and bleeding and was taken to hospital immediately. I'm saying this because I've got a first hand experience.
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Old 5th November 2014, 23:36   #260
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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I was not aware that Indica was crash tested. Any links?
Sure. It was the Vista and it was tested in ASEAN NCAP.
Here you go,
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Old 6th November 2014, 00:59   #261
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Post Alto vs Go vs Nano - A crash test comparison

Since people are bashing the Datsun Go in this thread, I'd like to bring in other A-segment cars for comparison as well.

Alto 800 (and k10 as they share chassis)

Tata Nano

Datsun Go


Datsun seems to undergo maximum deformation all the way to the rear of the car, almost as if the whole car was made of aluminium foil. I doubt anybody would survive a crash in this car, regardless of seating position.

All three cars have their dashboards come off and hit the driver - a dangerous life threatening situation indeed.

The Nano and the Alto though retain stability at the rear. It would be interesting to know how a rear adult passenger would have fared in these cars - this would let us know how safe the cars are for use as Taxis for passengers.

If I was offered either of the three cars for free, I'd pick the Alto since it seems to have fared slightly better than the Nano where the entire driver's cabin acted as a crumple zone compared to about half the cabin for the Alto, although both would result in near-certain death

I feel sorry for the chaps who funded this test. Each dummy used for the crash test costs around 100,000$ which is several times the price of the car. I'm sure they would have been tempted to simply use a regular mannequin instead as the damage is obvious just by looking at the video.

PS: Will try to post a comparison of the Swift's competitors in crash tests to see if it is as bad vs immediate competition as the Go.
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Old 6th November 2014, 08:51   #262
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
Sure. It was the Vista and it was tested in ASEAN NCAP.
The car tested for ASEAN or other NCAP need not be the same plying on our roads. AFAIK, Alto 800, the Hyundai i10, the Ford Figo, the Volkswagen Polo, and the Tata Nano and now the Swift and Go are the real Indian cars tested.

Please correct me if wrong.
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Old 6th November 2014, 09:00   #263
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
Sure. It was the Vista and it was tested in ASEAN NCAP.
Here you go,
Thanks, looks like the lower body took a hit and hence the lower rating. Driver's feet and right leg were not adequately protected as per the detailed results and even the chest area was marginal. To make the numbers worse, thigh of the front passenger didn't get green though the driver did which would bring down the rating further down.

So the cumulative numbers are not too good for Vista, but Tata should be able to get a 4 star out of Bolt/Zest with some minor reinforcements and modifications in the firewall area.

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
The car tested for ASEAN or other NCAP need not be the same plying on our roads. AFAIK, Alto 800, the Hyundai i10, the Ford Figo, the Volkswagen Polo, and the Tata Nano and now the Swift and Go are the real Indian cars tested.

Please correct me if wrong.
Agree that we cannot be 100% sure this is the same as Indian version, but considering the lower volumes that Tata sell, it wouldn't justify the R&D on skimping structural materials to cut costs. What they would eventually save versus the R&D to identify what can be saved and where would probably even out. So I'm inclined to think that a compromise on structural integrity might be present mostly in the best sellers (or in those expected to be best sellers when they were designed like Nano and Go) where the sheer volume would bring about considerable savings by cutting minor things.

Last edited by zenren : 6th November 2014 at 09:16. Reason: Adding reply
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Old 6th November 2014, 11:17   #264
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Spot on and well put!

Sales Advisors are the biggest culprits in buyers not choosing safety kit when provided as optional. They try to push their overpriced accessories onto the unsuspecting customers by ensuring the customers buy a variant that misses a lot of genuine accessories especially if they realize that the customer can pay an additional lakh for the top end. They cleverly take a good chunk of that money into their profits.
If sales advisers are culprit, I would give the batten to the trainers. The training programs are developed by manufactures with some inputs from the dealers (region specific mindset and buying trends observed by them in past). The language and explanations given by sales advisers are what they have learnt as part of the marketing training exercise before a particular product is launched.

The manufactures usually do not make a lot of money in entry level trim. In almost 80% of the cases, the middle trim (VDi / VXi for MSIL) brings in the maximum amount of profit to the company and thus the training material is developed in sync with maximum profitability strategy.

Should we be just blaming in SA?

Cheers
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Old 6th November 2014, 11:17   #265
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Saw this news. Crash tests to be mandatory from Oct 2015.
http://indianautosblog.com/2014/11/f...n-india-155770

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/45041350.cms

Quote:
Road transport secretary Vijay Chhibber said, "We will notify the regulatory norm by next March when facilities to carry out such test will be ready. Then the manufacturers will have over six months to comply with the norm. When they can produce cars with minimum and mandatory safety requirement for other countries, why can't they do the same for our domestic buyers?"

Last edited by glenmz : 6th November 2014 at 11:21.
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Old 6th November 2014, 11:38   #266
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Default Re: How few more days of silence will save Maruti and the rest!!

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
This is with every car, the steering will always be arm's length, it is the work of the seat belt to prevent the driver from hitting the steering. If these cars failed, then something is not right in the way the seat belt works on these cars
3 point seatbelts we have in road going cars can do little on their own. Think about it, a 2inch wide 60-80cm long strap across trying to stop a soft body of around 80-90kilos traveling at 60kph. If seatbelts were good enough on its own then airbags would not be required. Seatbelt is the primary restraint system, air bags assist them by cushioning the impact. Thats why they are called SRS Airbag; SRS for supplementary restraint system.

Another important point to note:
Indian cars with airbag did not score 3 or 4 stars just because of airbags, they also have seat belt pretensioners which the base variant lacks. Pre-tensioners tighten the seatbelt when airbag impact sensors are trigerred. Regular seatbelts stops the person with its inertia reel mechanism - once the person has moved a bit from his seat; the pretensioner seatbelt acts a fraction of a second quicker actively holding him into the seat.

Quote:
I was involved in a 70 mph motorway pile-up in the fast lane in UK a few years back. It was a heavy impact and everyone escaped without a scratch. Only the coke in the cup holder was splashed all over. The car in the back, a UK Ford Figo hit me from behind and the entire bonnet crumpled perfectly and there was no cabin intrusion.
Sorry to hear about your crash, but glad to hear that you and your fellow passengers made it out without any major injuries.
Are you sure that you hit and you were being hit from the back at 70MPH? You must have braked to a slightly slower speed when you saw the vehicle in front of you crash? Same case with the Ford Fiesta that hit your car from behind? There's a lot of variables in a real world motorway pile-up like what you hit, how you hit, speed at the point of impact, did the other vehicle or object move, how much it crumpled etc etc.. So you can't compare a motorway accident to a lab crash test and say there is something wrong with the seatbelt.

Below is the crash test of the 2008 Insignia and you can see the dummy's head smacking the steering wheel/dashboard if it wasn't for the airbag. This car had seatbelt pre-tensioners.
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Old 6th November 2014, 13:10   #267
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Are you sure that you hit and you were being hit from the back at 70MPH? You must have braked to a slightly slower speed when you saw the vehicle in front of you crash? Same case with the Ford Fiesta that hit your car from behind?
It's sometimes hard to believe that drivers in other countries are not perfect either

70MPH impacts are quite conceivable. People do not, for instance, always slow down for bad visibility, or they may have braked from speeds as high as 100MPH. Yes, 70MPH (112kph) is the limit in UK, but no, British drivers don't rigidly respect speed limits either.
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Old 6th November 2014, 13:48   #268
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Thailand made celerio crash tested by euro Ncap scored 3/5 score. it means the problem is with the thin metal sheets used by car makers to decrease their manufacturing costs as well inflate the fuel efficiency numbers.
http://indianautosblog.com/2014/11/s...sh-test-155993
to much to go for our mileage fetish mentality.
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Old 6th November 2014, 15:05   #269
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Default Global NCAP Asks For Withdrawal of Datsun Go From India

In a sensational and unprecedented move, the Chairman of Global NCAP - Max Mosely, has written to Renault - Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn saying, "As presently engineered the Datsun Go will certainly fail to pass the United Nation's frontal impact regulation. In these circumstances I would urge Nissan to withdraw the Datsun Go from sale in India pending an urgent redesign of the car's body-shell."

Link:http://auto.ndtv.com/news/global-nca...ndia-689529?fb

It is surprising that such requests were not made for the Alto and Nano. Probably, Nissan being an international player, global NCAP found it right to recommend them from selling a potential death trap.

Global NCAP also added that adding safety features like Airbags would be redundant for, the structure of the car is flawed.

It will be interesting to see Nissans response to GNCAP's recommendation.
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Old 6th November 2014, 15:10   #270
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Default

Wow. This is some news. I hope other players also see to it and make necessary changes in their vehicles. I wont be surprised if the Honorable Supreme Court notices this and takes some suo-moto action. Maybe something has started in right direction and this does bring about changes.
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