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Old 6th November 2014, 22:50   #331
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

There are a few points that I would like to mention.

1) Its not only about weight. Design and Engineering play a big role. Mazda 2 platform, on which the current Fiesta ( not Fiesta Classic ) is based, amazed the world for its lightweight yet very safe monocoque. Lets not debate on weight related safety, atleast in this thread. Here, we are discussing, IMO, what is dished out onto Indian car buyer's plate.

2) The main point : Cars sold to Indians are of sub par quality. This is proved by the images that I have added in this post.

The Indian Swift has deformation in or above A-pillar. The EU swift which is manufactured in Suzuki's Hungary plant does not have the same. The EU swift scored 5/5 in Euro NCAP with airbags ( dont remember how many ).
This sincerely raises concern for the quality of products manufactured in India and sold to Indian citizens.

The Indian Swift :
Name:  swift indian made.jpg
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The EU Swift : Name:  Swift Hungarian Made EU.jpg
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3) Similar is story for i10. The i10 in EU has less A-pillar deformation than the Indian built. Again, poor quality dished out to Indians.

The Indian i10 :
Name:  i10 indian made.jpg
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The EU i10 :
Name:  i10 EU.jpg
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4) Datsun GO and Swift Scoring 0 stars. The images indicate that GO has a structure worst than Alto 800. The deformation in GO is horrible, so much so that Airbags wont help ( I think that Airbags would do more harm than reducing injury in GO ). All are demanding that Swift also be banned, but Global NCAP score for Swift with Airbags is 3. The structure is much stronger than GO.

Alto 800 :
Name:  alto 800 indian made.jpg
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Datsun GO. Much weaker structure than even Alto 800 :
Name:  datsun Go indian made.jpg
Views: 833
Size:  94.9 KB

5) What is the worst part : We Indians are cheated. Yes, by Hyundai and Suzuki, both. Nissan's CEO is well known internationally for restructuring Nissan, but I think he wasn't confident for Indian market ( Nissan opted for outsourced Sales and Service channel ). And then we have the GO.

6) Who are good ? IMO, VW. The Indian VW with 2 airbags managed to score 4/5 and the structure deformation in Indian made Polo is almost the same visually as the EU one.

The Indian Polo :
Name:  Indian Polo.jpg
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The EU Polo :
Name:  EU polo.jpg
Views: 841
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Reason I am focusing on Structure deformation is that the crumple zones up front are to absorb the energy and the cabin starting from A-pillar has to be as rigid as possible to avoid any intrusion in the cabin.

Examples of treating Indian customers in poor way : Fixed head rests on Indian Grand i10, Celerio and adjustable ones in Export versions.


When will things improve : If Government starts acting tough and consumers demand. But this will come at an additional cost. The margins at which these firms are operating are very high it seems as the quality has obviously suffered. Its good to see manufacturers like VW that have a very strong focus on quality and an internal motivation to maintain quality.
I would love to see results for Amaze/Brio/Mobilio, Grand i10, elite i20, City, Ciaz, Wagon R. All of them Indian made.

Personally, I believe that ABS is more of a necessity as compared to Airbags. A car with ABS, a very well engineered structure but without Airbags will be better than a car with Airbags+ABS, but with a poor structure.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 6th November 2014 at 23:05.
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Old 6th November 2014, 22:53   #332
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
This video proves nothing, you're comparing apples to oranges. We are talking about cars within a segment. No one is saying that a 1000 kg B segment car with 5 star rating is as safe as a modern 1500 kg 5 star rated executive sedan. No amount of design and engineering can make a Smart car as safe as an S class in the event of a collision between the two, but that's besides the point. The point being made here is that the Swift failed because of poor design and engineering and not because it is light. The proof is that there are cars which weigh as much as a Swift (or even lesser) and have scored a 5 star rating.
My comment was in response to the following statement made by you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
"So the weight of the car has got nothing to do with the structural integrity. It's design and engineering. Nothing else."
As the video posted by me shows, the weight does indeed have something to do with faring better in a crash. I do agree with you that better design and structural integrity are more important but the weight also remains a factor.
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Old 6th November 2014, 22:53   #333
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Was surfing through the net and found this image of old Swift
Now that is horrible, absolutely nothing to guard the front ... cant imagine what would happen if the whole engine is pushed into the cabin in the event of a collision.

Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...-swift.jpg
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Old 6th November 2014, 23:01   #334
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by S.MJet View Post
I think the point highlighted in vedio is simple, heavier car will be safer than a lighter one irrespective of the segment.

Between Punto & Swift, both B segment hatchbacks, Punto is likely to be more safer.
If you are talking about the european models, both these cars (Swift and Grande Punto) have a 5 star rating so they are equally safe.

If your reasoning about the heavier car being safer was sound, then the Indian Swift would be safer than a Mitsubishi Mirage (4 stars) or Toyota iQ (5 stars), both of which are lighter than the swift. But we know that it is not.
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Old 6th November 2014, 23:03   #335
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by RavSam View Post
A la Cars movie: Ladies and GentleCARS

Presenting!
Made-in Thailand Suzuki Celerio Crash test!

Any idea about differences in the India version, even slight hints like weight will be appreciated, I am recommending this car to a friend who is on a very low budget and celerio seems to be the only car which can survive a crash test.
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Old 6th November 2014, 23:25   #336
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
M
As the video posted by me shows, the weight does indeed have something to do with faring better in a crash. I do agree with you that better design and structural integrity are more important but the weight also remains a factor.
Please read my post and try to understand the context. I said that the Swift fared badly because it is designed and engineered poorly, not because it is light. Merely adding another 50 kgs of metal to it's weight will not get it a 5 star rating but a well designed crumple zone will improve it's structural integrity considerably.

Obviously, a Camry will fare better than a Yaris, A Rolls Phantom will fare better than a Camry and a Knight XV or an MRAP will fare better than a Rolls in a head on collision. But that is not what this thread or my posts are about. What I am trying to say is that a well designed & engineered 1000 kg car will be much safer than a poorly designed & engineered 1100 kg car. If we are comparing cars within the same segment and price range, weight is not critical, design and engineering is.

Anyway, we have digressed from the main topic, this discussion belongs in the Sheet metal thickness thread.

Last edited by Astleviz : 6th November 2014 at 23:34.
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Old 6th November 2014, 23:34   #337
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Default Re: Global NCAP Asks For Withdrawal of Datsun Go From India

Max Mosley, the current chairman of Global NCAP was instrumental in making Formula 1 and other Motorsports safer when he was the FIA President. So, I am not very surprised to see him asking Nissan to withdraw GO from our market citing safety reasons.
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Old 6th November 2014, 23:54   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BowMan View Post
Not surprising considering how low Safety scores in an average Indian's purchase decision.

Should be an eye opener for Smart Aleck's who were arguing on this forum that the quality of sheet metal used in car construction has no bearing on the structural rigidity and passive safety.

I am not quoting these posts to get even but to remind members that they should be thoughtful with their views as this website is not just a forum of debate but also an instrument that molds public opinion.
I still don't get it. Where is it proved that heavier and thicker sheet metal in car proves to be safer car? Will same swift or Go with thicker sheet metal get higher rating. I guess not. A better engineered with same sheet metal thickness and safety equipment may get them higher rating though. By your logic a Bolero shall be answer to all safety concerns.
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Old 7th November 2014, 00:20   #339
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Is this a coincidence ? I think not !

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...er-2015-a.html
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Old 7th November 2014, 00:29   #340
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

I believe, the ratings are based on the stress/injuries on the crash dummies inside the car and not to do with the structure. If the vehicle is structurally stable then it will be able to save the dummy from injuries or fatality. Thats the reason why cars that failed the test later did well with an addition of Airbags.
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Old 7th November 2014, 00:46   #341
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Anyway, we have digressed from the main topic, this discussion belongs in the Sheet metal thickness thread.
Not sure if we're digressing too much though.

I've noticed that some of these third-world cars have very thin sheet metal. I mean, ridiculously thin. So much as lean on it and it gets temporarily dented. I've had the opportunity to check out one and it just doesn't feel too safe. In fact, older *third world* cars like the bare basic Santros and Altos feel a bit tighter.

EDIT: Also, from what I've experienced, ultra-narrow economy tyres on the basic Swift are terrible. Better grip and better brakes would make a real-world difference. That's what actually makes these cars even less safe in their Indian avatars.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 7th November 2014 at 01:05.
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Old 7th November 2014, 00:51   #342
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.MJet View Post
I think the point highlighted in vedio is simple, heavier car will be safer than a lighter one irrespective of the segment.

Between Punto & Swift, both B segment hatchbacks, Punto is likely to be more safer.
If that is so, Ambassador should be the safest car in India and most places around the world. Is it?
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Old 7th November 2014, 01:21   #343
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
If that is so, Ambassador should be the safest car in India and most places around the world. Is it?
We are not talking about an old design but about comparing two modern well made cars where one car is heavier and larger than the other.
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Old 7th November 2014, 02:11   #344
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Thumbs down Re: Global NCAP Asks For Withdrawal of Datsun Go From India

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Max Mosley, the current chairman of Global NCAP was instrumental in making Formula 1 and other Motorsports safer when he was the FIA President. So, I am not very surprised to see him asking Nissan to withdraw GO from our market citing safety reasons.
The name Max Moseley rang the same bell, whether he is the same guy from FIA.

I have few points to jot down, although most of them have been covered extensively before:

1. Structural integrity: Indian made cars especially on budget, are inferior to that of the same model made outside.

2. Bang for buck: Yes, the kitna deti hain attitude by our largest domestic player, blatantly slaps us on our face. We get what we want, more milege at the cost of basic impact resistant beams.

3. Governance: Dormant till now, but current NDA seems to be reacting much faster than what we have seen before.

4. Plight being 3rd world: Yes, lets face it; we are fed with sub par products be it any consumer goods or cars.

5. Bigger game played by VAG?: Not with MI6 or NIA, but cant comment. Even if i knew, would say this is a welcome move.

PS: I used to love Swift, a lot. It took a special berth in my heart for those all black interiors to begin with, when there were seldom cars having those.

I dont share the same warmth now.

:(

Drive slow
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Old 7th November 2014, 08:00   #345
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Any idea about differences in the India version, even slight hints like weight will be appreciated, I am recommending this car to a friend who is on a very low budget and celerio seems to be the only car which can survive a crash test.
Sorry but I don't know about it.
However if your friend is going for the Celerio, it can only be deemed safe (relatively as the crash tested car is Thai mfd model) in its ZXi (O) version which gets ABS + Airbags, can he not stretch upto 50K more for Grand i10 P Asta (O) with ABS +_Airbags and other kit and much better quality and built for that price difference?

My friend was considering Celerio and I made him go for i10 and he is very glad now.
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