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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:22   #91
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Folks,

I have few questions.

1. Does it mean that the even the base variant of Datsun Go is safer than the base variant of Maruti Swift because the structural integrity is compromised in Swift?
2. What is the meaning of 'compromise' to structural integrity? Even if Swift comes with 6 airbags(and ABS) is it still a safe car if the structural integrity is compromised?
3. Do we have the same problem in Ritz and Ertiga? Swift, Ritz & Ertiga are all on the same platform, isn't it? Do all of them have the same problem?
4. I think the aspect of safety does not come out in the various online reviews, including team bhp, and it is high-time all the reviews focus a great deal on the safety aspect and not just on other parameters alone?

P.S: We were considering an Eritga in our immediate family as an upgrade from Santro but now I think I will rule out Maruti cars until I get some confidence factor about the safety aspects. I am seriously worried about the compromise to structural integrity!!
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:34   #92
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Originally Posted by searacer932 View Post
Folks,

I have few questions.

1. Does it mean that the even the base variant of Datsun Go is safer than the base variant of Maruti Swift because the structural integrity is compromised in Swift?
2. What is the meaning of 'compromise' to structural integrity? Even if Swift comes with 6 airbags(and ABS) is it still a safe car if the structural integrity is compromised?
3. Do we have the same problem in Ritz and Ertiga? Swift, Ritz & Ertiga are all on the same platform, isn't it? Do all of them have the same problem?
4. I think the aspect of safety does not come out in the various online reviews, including team bhp, and it is high-time all the reviews focus a great deal on the safety aspect and not just on other parameters alone?
I'm no expert, but here are a couple of my responses.
2. Structural integrity means how well the car holds up it's shape in the case of a collision. It is usually an indicator of how well the vehicle holds up in a head on collision. The cabin is supposed to be as intact as possible. The bonnet has to crumple and stop the force before it reaches the cabin. This is usually tested for a certain speed.
Even if the swift came with 6 airbags and abs, if the cabin gets crushed in a collision, then the airbags are of no use and in fact may hurt the occupants instead of helping them. Even though the airbags help in the case of a collision, accidental deployments hurt a lot.

3. Probably true that all of them have the same problems.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:37   #93
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by searacer932 View Post
1. Does it mean that the even the base variant of Datsun Go is safer than the base variant of Maruti Swift because the structural integrity is compromised in Swift?
Nopes. If anything, the Datsun GO has worse structural integrity than the Swift.
Watch this video: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/new...?ndtv_videorhs
Quote:
2. What is the meaning of 'compromise' to structural integrity? Even if Swift comes with 6 airbags(and ABS) is it still a safe car if the structural integrity is compromised?
Not too sure about this. I think it will depend on how the structure reacts.
Quote:
3. Do we have the same problem in Ritz and Ertiga? Swift, Ritz & Ertiga are all on the same platform, isn't it? Do all of them have the same problem?
I don't think these have been crash tested by Global NCAP.
Quote:
4. I think the aspect of safety does not come out in the various online reviews, including team bhp, and it is high-time all the reviews focus a great deal on the safety aspect and not just on other parameters alone?
Honestly, I don't think a publication or online media can say anything about a car's safety till results are published by NCAP. It will be unfair. There was a time when people considered an Ambassador "safe". It wasn't.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:39   #94
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Originally Posted by TheLizardKing View Post
With absolutely no offense intended to the poster, this is the kind of ignorance that manufacturers like MS take advantage of. ABS doesn't have anything to do with the speed you are braking from. If your wheels lock when you brake from anyspeed, you lose the ability to steer the car - and that can be the difference between life and death. Not yours, but the biker or pedestrian whom you are unable to steer away from.
None taken. Sorry. I know how useful ABS is having driven cars with them. Also know of an incident where a Verna carrying my friends relatives toppled because it had no abs and resulted in casualties. :(

Which was why my point was that all manufacturers should implement them so that no one can ignore safety and go for cheaper options. I guess my argument should have included abs as well.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:48   #95
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by D4D View Post
I just hope you reconsider what you said and you will never regret saying this. India has the highest number of deaths by road accidents in the world.
He was clearly mentioning it in a sarcastic tone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by searacer932 View Post
1. Does it mean that the even the base variant of Datsun Go is safer than the base variant of Maruti Swift because the structural integrity is compromised in Swift?
Though both were rated as unstable, Swift’s vehicle structure showed signs of collapsing in the crash while Datsun Go's structure actually collapsed. Go is probably only as safe as Nano and even the addition of airbags are not going to make in any safer.

Quote:
2. What is the meaning of 'compromise' to structural integrity? Even if Swift comes with 6 airbags(and ABS) is it still a safe car if the structural integrity is compromised?
Airbags work on the assumption that the driver seat and the steering remains in its respective positions and that gap would not be decreased in the event of a crash. This is how the airbag can deploy in the space between the occupant and the steering/dashboard to prevent the occupant from hitting the steering or dashboard hard due to the momentum during the collision.

If the structural integrity is not maintained, the dashboard would be intruding into the cabin. This would mean that there is lesser space for the airbag to deploy and could crush the driver in case there is too much of dashboard intrusion into the cabin.

Quote:
3. Do we have the same problem in Ritz and Ertiga? Swift, Ritz & Ertiga are all on the same platform, isn't it? Do all of them have the same problem?
Most Indian cars unless proven otherwise can be assumed to have this problem, including Hyundai, Tata et al. Exceptions are makers like Fiat, VW.

Quote:
4. I think the aspect of safety does not come out in the various online reviews, including team bhp, and it is high-time all the reviews focus a great deal on the safety aspect and not just on other parameters alone?
Without an NCAP available for Indian cars, it would not be possible to get the required data even if someone wanted to review it from that angle. The max you can do is list out the safety features. Anything more needs tasks that are exorbitantly costly if tried by an individual. Only a regulation can reveal that kind of information.

Quote:
P.S: We were considering an Eritga in our immediate family as an upgrade from Santro but now I think I will rule out Maruti cars until I get some confidence factor about the safety aspects. I am seriously worried about the compromise to structural integrity!!
It depends on the other alternatives you are going to consider. Please don't discard Ertiga due to this news and buy something equally bad just because it is not exposed yet.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:54   #96
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by Carophilic View Post

My point was don't be carried away with the NCAP results. They have their own agenda. They have to propagate EU agenda.

Suppose, tomorrow Indian NCAP adopts only one test out of kitty of tests available and rates cars, won't it be a big farce. I am only stating my opposition to the propagation of this farce.

Regulation is the only tool to ensure safety and not some pseudo charitable organisation with ulterior motives.
So, ideally, it would augment well for the Indian market if there is no voluntary NCAP that is easy to manipulate, instead a comprehensive set of REGULATIONS is enacted by the GOVERNMENT taking into account of all the various parameters used by various NCAP programmes around the world with suitable modifications and adaptations to our economic and traffic conditions.

That is a superior solution, no doubt.

But, proper consultation from industry and safety experts are to be invited, and more importantly, these regulations are to be reviewed, revised and updated periodically.

IMHO, this is a most important aspect of the issue, but unfortunately this does not seem to figure much in the discussion.

At the risk of being frowned upon, I admit that I had some apprehensions about the whole Euro NCAP when all of a sudden a certain manufacturer of European origin suddenly began taking the crash safety norms for their Indian products - in the most significant market segment- very seriously.

At the end of the day, ANY car that scores on ANY count is way better than another car that does not even qualify in a safety assessment!

Last edited by Yeldo : 3rd November 2014 at 22:55.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:55   #97
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Come on - Maruti provides fuel efficient cars that happily run on a mixture of diesel, kerosene and water, do not breakdown, and are cheap to run and service. What more can you want? Most Indians do not wear seat belts - so why are you whining about structural integrity,air bags, and other such useless features? Maruti gives Indian car buyers just what they want - features, looks, fuel efficiency and service. You benefit from these every day, but need safety features rather rarely. After all, how many of you have had accidents even in the last year? So why waste money on safe, but unreliable and costly to maintain cars?
I get the sarcasm in your post, but I as a consumer want both, the reliability of a Maruti with the safety that they offer in developed economies. I think we Indians pay a high enough price for a car versus in the developed world and hence do not see why it has to be an "reliability" v/s "safety" debate.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 22:59   #98
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

For those who are cursing Maruti / Datsun / other manufacturers for the wafer thin body panels, please understand that reducing the gauge of metal used on body panels is a sureshot (and often the only) way to reduce the kerb weight of the car - all while trying to cater to the insatiable hunger of the Indian junta for mileage !
'Kitna deti hai' - I hate those words...
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Old 3rd November 2014, 23:31   #99
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Equipping a car which fails the crash test with airbags is like applying band-aid to a fractured hand. Cars made for India are usually cheaper than it's international counterparts and to make them cheaper lesser features are given, thinner sheet metal is used which weakens the structural integrity of the car.
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Old 3rd November 2014, 23:33   #100
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Does that mean fuel efficiency is more important than the human life? I mean come on, what kind of society are we turning into? Maruti had it coming long time ago, and that is why no Suzuki car sells like hot cakes abroad other than India. How difficult is it to built a safe car?
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Old 3rd November 2014, 23:48   #101
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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
I get the sarcasm in your post, but I as a consumer want both, the reliability of a Maruti with the safety that they offer in developed economies. I think we Indians pay a high enough price for a car.

I actually agree with you on your first point. The sarcasm was aimed at those who ignore aspects like safety and think only reliability counts. But the price we pay is NOT high - net of taxes, India has the lowest priced variants of most cars in the world (barring perhaps the CKD assembled products where people charge a premium to recover part of the cost of low volume assembly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
For those who are cursing Maruti / Datsun / other manufacturers for the wafer thin body panels, please understand that reducing the gauge of metal used on body panels is a sureshot way to reduce the kerb weight of the car - all while trying to cater to the insatiable hunger of the Indian junta for mileage...

Actually, reducing weight to increase fuel efficiency is a practice being followed by every manufacturer in every part of the world. This can and is being done while improving safety - heavy body panels (think Ambassador) are NOT safer.

Safety comes from design and strength of structural members leading to a cage which crumples only where it is supposed to. The external damage is not an indicator of poor design, crumpling of external parts absorbs energy if done well. The problem is that as I understand it (admittedly without access to specific designs), Maruti "value engineers" certain structural members out from Suzuki designs - which in my view makes cars even LESS safe than if they were designed only for Indian pricing. Think of it like a building - thick walls don't give it strength, they can even hurt by changing load characteristics. But if you break a beam, that can weaken a structure completely.
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Old 4th November 2014, 00:38   #102
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by searacer932 View Post
2. What is the meaning of 'compromise' to structural integrity? Even if Swift comes with 6 airbags(and ABS) is it still a safe car if the structural integrity is compromised?
No. Having Airbags is useless unless the body shell can withstand the impact. Look at this crash test video of a Chinese car that has airbags but still got totaled.

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Old 4th November 2014, 00:56   #103
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

NDTV Prime had put up this video in March of the Indian Swift with airbags and abs being crash tested. Back then, they ended the video saying they're waiting for official data to give a star rating.

I'm confused so help me out here,did this variant score 3 stars,results of which they made official now or are we to expect a new video showing a Swift with Airbags and ABS being crash tested ?

Watch from 10:41 onwards where they inspect the damage from the passenger seat. Dashboard and cabin look to be intact. Why then, did they say the monocoque is unstable ?


Last edited by shashank.nk : 4th November 2014 at 00:58.
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Old 4th November 2014, 02:49   #104
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

My thoughts when the news broke, on the previous thread here (Indian Nano, Alto, Figo, i10 & Polo FAIL Global NCAP Safety Test)

Aren't Swift / Dzire owners feeling betrayed? or are they just ignorant of the gravity of the findings?

It infuriates me that, of every other auto maker, Maruti did something SO irresponsible. Selling 4 lakh+ units of just Swift + Dzire per annum, what did they NOT have? the budget? the consumer confidence?

It isn't about "Not just Maruti. all are bad...", its about even though they're the biggest car sellers in India, they didn't bother to tell us that their cars (the ones without airbags) would quite certainly cause fatalities in crashes at 64kmph & above! And hence, Airbags were crucial for safety.

I disagree that Indians only care for Fuel Efficiency, IMO thats just a misnomer deliberately spread to defame a rather prudent consumer-base as an irresponsible one. Fuel Economy claims were only meant to lend people a light hearted excuse for choosing a brand, it wasn't a serious reason.

IMO Indians are NOT a gullible lot, but as a consumer will you (even if you're able to) learn everything about anything you buy? Thats when 'Brands' step in - and ask us to trust them.

All in all, our govts haven't made sufficient regulations to protect the interest of the masses. Either way, as usual its us who gets scr*w*d.

We're used to it now anyway.

P.S. : I also find it rather peculiar that though NDTV said it'll take a few days to assess the test, they only came out with results after 7 months! Some responsible reporting this!

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 4th November 2014 at 03:08.
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Old 4th November 2014, 08:31   #105
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Default Re: Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...

Took some time to dig out this post by BHPian Sankar from a couple of months ago explaining at least one area where Maruti skipped the energy absorbing foam from the front bumper in the name of cost cutting.

This is clearly going to have an impact on the crash test results, since the lack of energy absorbing material would mean the Indian Swift is practically getting a much higher force into the engine bay and cabin owing to the lack of dampening materials. I hope Maruti would start putting similar components back into their models.

Slightly OT, would this be something that can be retro-fitted into an existing Swift?

Indian Swift:
Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...-mswift1.jpg

European Swift:
Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...-sswift1.jpg
Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...-sswift2.jpg

Original post:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3533004 (Have Manufacturers made bumpers useless?)
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